S6E5 - The Cryonauts: Conclusion

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Kayla: I would prefer this than other end of life options, for sure.

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Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Freeze me. I don't know.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: Wouldn't it be wild, though? Did I mention this on a previous show? Like, you're just driving down the street.

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Kayla: And then all of a sudden you're in 3000 years in the future, and.

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Chris: Then turns out there was an accident where you were, like, were legally declared dead. You got frozen. So you're just driving down this from your perspective. All of a sudden you hear a screeching sound to your left. And then the very next second, you're being woken up in, like, some fucking fallout situation where you're like, way in the future and everything's bizarre and there's lizard people. Like, what the fuck, man? That must be disorienting as.

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Kayla: We didn't.

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Chris: Really get into this, but the rehab bit is, like, big.

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Kayla: It's already disorienting enough coming out of, like, surgery.

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Chris: Yeah, I know. This would be, like coming out of the world's craziest surgery. All right, let me have something to drink here real quick. It's already recording, by the way, our nonprofits.

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Kayla: Altruistic.

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Chris: I don't really think that's a definitive, answerable thing. Okay, Kayla.

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Kayla: Oh, are we going?

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Chris: We're going to.

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Kayla: Okay, I'm here.

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Chris: We're right in.

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Kayla: I'm not looking at my phone.

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Chris: This is a podcast called cult or just weird. You're Kayla?

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Kayla: I'm Kayla. You're Chris. I write for television and also do this podcast.

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Chris: I just sit around and do nothing. That is my expertise for this. But in that nothing, I have a lot of time to think about stuff.

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Kayla: You know? Who else sits around and does nothing?

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Chris: Frozen people.

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Kayla: All those people frozen in various cryopreservation companies.

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Chris: I'm just. I'm really. I'm just practicing for when I freeze myself.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: You know, my. As long. And if I can have, like, a video game pumped in there, I don't even need to be unfrozen, really.

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Kayla: Well, I don't think you would need anything because you're basically. It's not like you're sitting there conscious.

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Chris: How do you know?

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Kayla: Your brain don't. Your brain froze.

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Chris: That'd be fucked up.

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Kayla: Yeah, I don't, like, think. Don't think about that.

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Chris: So if you're just joining us here, our previous episode was an interview with Jacob Cook.

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Kayla: Jacob Cook, who also goes by cryogenator in the Internet realm.

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Chris: And who is he again?

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Kayla: He's just a guy. He's just a little friend.

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Chris: A little friend. Was he, like, imaginary friend.

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Kayla: He is a member of the cryonics community, and we first encountered him when were watching the how to with John Wilson episode about cryonics. And then once I dove into the cryonics community on Reddit, on Discord, and elsewhere, he is a very prominent member in those spheres. So we're really lucky that he was able to sit down and have a conversation with us.

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Chris: So, yeah, if you haven't listened to that interview, that's what we'll be talking about, and then we'll be deciding whether cryonics is a cult or just weird.

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Kayla: Chris, what was your immediate takeaway from that conversation?

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Chris: I think I had a few big ones. I have a big takeaway of, wow, this guy is very optimistic about the future. That's kind of nice. I also had a takeaway, actually. I don't know if this is a takeaway.

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Kayla: This is kind of like the opposite. When we did vehement, the voluntary human extinction movement, this is literally the opposite.

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Chris: The voluntary human longevity movement. Yeah. So he mentioned a term that he uses called protoscience, because you asked him about, well, is it a pseudoscience or a science? I do like that term. I do like protoscience as a term, but I feel like before we even continue, we should sort of, like, disambiguate what we mean when we say, like, is this a science? Like, what is the. This? There's a lot involved here.

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Kayla: Yeah. And I think that's kind of, like, very hard to tease apart, because there's so. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it well, but it's like, cryonics operates in this realm of, like, legitimacy and, like, not yet legitimacy and illegitimacy, and it's really hard to, like, tease that all apart.

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Chris: So it's hard to tease apart. But I think there is, like, one place where you can really cut it into two halves.

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Kayla: Do it. Go, show me.

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Chris: There's the freezing, and then there's the unfreezing. Like, those are both very different things.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: And that's kind of what's been top of mind when I've been thinking about, like, every time we say, is it a science? Is it a real science? I'm like, I think we have to differentiate between those two bits.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Because freezing stuff is already happening.

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Kayla: Yeah. We're doing it. We are freezing bodies.

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Chris: We have figured out freezing organs. We're freezing embryos. It's happening.

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Kayla: We have figured out ways in which to preserve human tissue at extraordinarily low temperatures without damaging the tissue with little damage.

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Chris: Yeah. Or minimal damage to the tissue. So I feel like we need to say, okay, when we say, is this a real science? If we're talking about the freezing process, the answer is yes. If we're talking about the unfreezing process, then I think that's where you talk about something like protoscience, where, like, well, we have some ideas on how it might happen, but, like, it's never been successfully demonstrated that you can unfreeze, like, an adult human body and have it function, or adult human brain. I guess I should be even more specific, right?

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Kayla: Yeah. The farthest we've gone. The farthest we've gone in the unfreezing is, as discussed, like rat and rabbit kidneys, which is. That's amazing, but it's a far cry from being able to revive a human. And I also think that there are. I don't know how to say this. I just want to say that basically, like, places like Alcor are more focused on, or it seems like, more focused on the first half of that question and are working towards the second half, but are more focused on the first half. And then I think other cryonics places are equally focused on both or more focused on the latter. But it seems like Alcor, at least in its recent history, is focusing on the, what can we do today? Versus the.

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Chris: Versus speculation.

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Kayla: What might we be able to do?

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Chris: That's certainly the impression I got. I mean, that was explicitly said to us, so that's.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: So that unless they're just, like, outright lying, that is their focus. But, yeah. And I almost feel like there's a little bit of, like, a straw man there with the pseudoscience thing, because I don't even think, like, let's say went to alcor or even one of these other organizations with which we are less familiar, I imagine that they wouldn't say, like, yeah, we have a science for unfreezing people.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: It's pseudoscience. But we have, like, they wouldn't claim that. You know, like, they'd be like, yeah, that's. They are. The people that are involved in this are well aware that is speculation and not a guarantee. So I I don't know. I feel like even saying pseudoscience for. Is it a pseudoscience feels a little straw manny, to me, because the people involved aren't making that claim.

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Kayla: Yeah. And I think that this is where the harm can come in from. Maybe folks who are involved in the community that aren't as science minded as that are maybe making grander claims of, you know, talking that are more in the speculative realm here or like, really everything's about the nanobots and how we don't have to die and the really far future kind of stuff. I think that's potentially where the harm can come in, because I think sometimes those people can get a little more outside attention because it's like, whoa, crazy. I mean, that was the kind of people that were focused on in the how to with John Wilson episode.

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Kayla: We specifically went and talked to folks that were maybe gonna say things that seemed a little more, like, influential or fantastical and then a little more Sci-Fi then the, like, mainstream or meta conversation is about, like, that versus what is actually going on in, like, the nitty gritty cryonics community.

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Chris: Look, I'm not saying that those things are not valuable to talk about either. I think they are. The science and futurism guy that I listened to, I've talked about him on the show before, Isaac Arthur, he has all kinds of videos about cryonics on all of his stuff. He speculates wildly, and that's just what he does. He's a futurist, Sci-Fi fan, and a futurist with a physics background. So he speculates like, that's what he does. So I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just don't think that we should then take that and say, well, that's what Alcor is doing. Isn't that crazy? Like, no, physics is bad and.

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Kayla: Dangerous because this one guy said that one day we'll be able to travel through wormholes.

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Chris: Right? So, yeah, I just wanted to quickly or slowly, however the case may be, disambiguate on what we mean when we say this. Is this a science? Is this a pseudoscience? He said a few other interesting things. Like, if you want to keep going at, like, a high level, I want to jump back, maybe, to talking about how interesting it was that he was such a optimist. I mean, I guess you kind of have to be, right? Like, if you're speculating that eventually, one day we'll have the technology to unfreeze people, then there's got to be some underlying optimism that we will continue to as a society.

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Kayla: Yeah, I think it's very optimistic. I think it's optimistic in a lot of ways. There's the optimism in our technology advancing forward at kind of a straight upward line. There is optimism about, and we can get into this a little bit more. A little bit later. But I will say it here about a company being able to last potentially a thousand years into the future. Like, that's incredibly hopeful. And then, yeah, just the hope that, like, we're not going to all die from global warming or we're all going to die from.

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Chris: Did he say anything about climate collapse? I don't quite remember.

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Kayla: I don't think so. I think we talked more about, like, you can't have. You can't have a fourth world war kind of thing.

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Chris: He also brought up. It was funny when he brought up that book, what's it called?

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Kayla: The Better Angels of our nature. By who? Steven Pinker.

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Chris: Steven Pinker, yeah. Yeah. Because we just listened to the latest if books could kill the Michael Hobbs podcast, which is about that book.

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Kayla: Yes.

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Chris: And his podcast is like, debunks books. So I don't want to, like, at least from what I've. From what I remember from the books could kill episode, they weren't saying that. Like, everything Mister Pinker had to say was wrong and bunk. It was a little more nuanced than that. It was more like, yeah, he has a lot of true facts in there, but there's also some conclusions that he draws that don't necessarily follow from the facts that he presents. But like, when. When Pinker talks about, like, you know, the fact that, yeah, there hasn't been like, a large scale war since. Since the end of the second world war.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: You know, that's true. Or when he talks about declining violence overall.

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Kayla: Yeah, you're more likely to get murdered by your neighbor in the middle ages than you are now.

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Chris: Right. All of those seem to be true supported facts. It's just that there's some other things. I just wanted to mention that because it was like.

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Kayla: Cause it's timely. Everybody stop listening to this podcast. Go listen to if books could kill, you can dunk on Steven Pinker and his book, and then you can come back and listen to this.

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Chris: The other really optimistic thing is that, and this is what, not necessarily in his part, but just in general, that any of these companies are even gonna be around when the thawing time. Like, let's say at some point we do inventory nanotechnology that can assist with thawing people out, and that totally works. Is Alcor still going to be around? Like, what if that's like 100 years, a thousand years from now?

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Kayla: That's like. I did want to come back to this because, you know, I did ask that question in the interview, and we ended up talking a little bit more about, you know, whether or not these companies are scammy, which is definitely something that should be talked about, because that's a valid fear, I think, for any sort of end of life thing. You don't want to get scammed by your funeral home. You don't want to get scammed by your. Your cryopreservation company.

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Chris: That's a different question than existential business risk.

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Kayla: Then how do you think, yeah, a company is going to last for potentially 1000 plus years. And before the interview, I went into this thinking that in our history as humans, what the oldest business is, what, like 200 years old? But then I. I thought it was.

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Chris: The Kikoman soy sauce company. I swear to God, I had heard.

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Kayla: How old did you think it was?

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Chris: Like a few hundred? There's like three or 400 even that.

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Kayla: I didn't look up Kikoman specifically, but even that idea that, like, oh, Kikoman is 300 years old, 300 years might not be enough for us to get to the technology of having nanobots or the ability to revive someone. And so if companies are typically, you know, not lasting 300 years, how are we gonna. How are we gonna make this happen?

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Chris: The average survivability of a particular company.

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Kayla: Yeah, I googled it. And while, of course, the average survivability of a particular company is, like, not anywhere near this, but there are currently existing companies in our world, largely in, like, Japan and various places in Europe. So, like, Japan, Italy, Germany, Austria, France. There are companies that are a thousand plus years old. Like, I think the oldest one was established in 578 AD, a japanese construction company.

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Chris: So we do have these old ass japanese companies.

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Kayla: No, but we do have a precedent of companies that are able to find a way to survive over 1000 plus years.

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Chris: Yeah, but their product is soy sauce.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: And that's really important. Freezing people, you know? I don't know. Like, I need my soy sauce, dude.

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Kayla: Well, I don't know how well Kikoman is. You should probably look it up.

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Chris: I actually did look it up while you were talking, and it was founded in 1603, so that's 421 years ago.

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Kayla: That's old, man. That's old. It's still. There's some companies that are 1000 years older than that.

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Chris: That's some old soy sauce.

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Kayla: Old soy sauce.

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Chris: I think it's supposed to be aged, though, so that's okay.

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Kayla: Fermented just like those bodies.

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Chris: Actually, it's very similar.

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Kayla: So I think that the thing that's almost the most optimistic is that these companies will be able to stand the test of time. It's possible. We have the precedent for it. But, you know, will Alcor, you know, Alcor founded in 1972, I believe. Will Alcor be able to last a thousand years?

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Chris: You say, start making soy sauce. Yes.

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Kayla: You gotta start making soy sauce. You gotta get an alternative use for those doers.

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Chris: Oh, yeah. I wonder if you could preserve people in there, in the soy. Maybe it's like the best vitrification fluid is actually soy sauce.

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Kayla: No, but I actually want to talk.

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Chris: About this, like, how we're patenting that. By the way.

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Kayla: How do you think people feel about the viability of a company like Alcor or cryonics Institute or some of these european ones, cryo Rus in Russia. How do you think people talk to themselves about the viability of a company having that kind of longevity?

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Chris: Are you talking about members of these organizations?

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Yeah. Well, so first of all, and we kind of hit on this, but I do wanna say this too, is that it's not just like, oh, shit, went bankrupt. It's not just that. It's also like, when you talk about timescales that long, it's also, is this company going to have the same mission and identity that far in the future? Right? Like, are they going to pivot to soy sauce? You know, like, literally, like, we don't know.

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Kayla: And then being nonprofits might make it slightly different than, like, you know, an.

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Chris: Investment company, because that does. That suddenly protects you against. Yeah. The types of business risk that can, you can be exposed to in the equities market. So that does help. But, yeah, I think members and maybe this is just me thinking about how I would try to picture this, but I just picture it as, that's just another risk. That's like, we're already talking about something that's speculative. Right. One of the things. One of the risks is maybe this is not. Maybe reviving human brain tissue the way it was before is not physically possible. That's one of the risks. Another risk is maybe climate collapse destroys everything, and including Alcor, that's a risk. Maybe Alcor decides to make soy sauce instead of preserving people. That's another risk.

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Chris: So I just, I kind of bucket it together as, like, there's just a lot of risks in this sort of, like, super long term endeavor, and that's just one of them.

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Kayla: And risks are present for other kind of, like, end of life choices as well. Like, you can make the decision to be buried somewhere, which seems like, oh, you're in that grave.

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Chris: Oh, my God, I think about that all the time. Every time you go by a cemetery. Every time I see a cemetery, I think about that. I'm like, but you think about what? Especially a cemetery that's in, like, a valuable, sort of, like, real estate area. I kind of go to my. I'm like, so nobody can redevelop this land. Like, that's it, right?

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Kayla: Except that.

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Chris: Or do they.

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Kayla: That happens. Like, sometimes cemeteries fall out of commission or no one takes care of them anymore. Or, like, the bodies get moved or it gets built on top of, like.

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Chris: Yeah. We think of cemeteries as, like, forever type place, and it's not really.

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Kayla: It's not necessarily true. Or, like, a disaster could happen. A meteor could strike your cemetery that you're buried in. What if there's, like, a landslide?

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Chris: Like, what if a bunch of hipsters start watching movies? Actually, that would be cool. I would like to be buried in Hollywood for. So there's a thing called Cinespia in Los Angeles where they play movies at a cemetery.

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Kayla: Also, you should be hanging out in cemeteries. That's what they were originally meant for. So go ahead.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: That said, yeah, there's, I think most people, and we talked about this in the interview, most people who get involved with cryonics are aware that this is, you know, this is a moonshot thing. Maybe it'll happen. It probably won't, but maybe it will. And how nice to think that you might get to see the future one day.

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Chris: Yeah. The more interesting question to me is if we could get someone, get ahold of someone to talk to, that is on the business side of things in a place like Alcor.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: And say, how do you think about this type of risk? What safeguards do you guys have in place that are designed to maintain the identity and mission of something over such a long period of time? Right. Right. It might not just be your successor. It might not just be your successor's successor. It might be like, 50 generations down that have to, like.

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Kayla: Right. And these aren't, like, family businesses necessarily. So it's like, how do you keep that line of succession intact?

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Chris: Yeah, the Royce couldn't do it. How can you do it?

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Kayla: And speaking of interviews that we would like to do. So that's one. And then another one we would like to do on this topic is, you know, we talked again, the interview we did was fans talking. We would really like to talk to somebody who is a scientist in this area, not necessarily somebody who is a cryonicist, because, again, we're talking about, like, a proto science with that. But talking with somebody who is actively involved in, like, cryopreservation or cryobryology or something like that.

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Chris: So like an organ transplanter, somebody who.

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Kayla: Works with cold shit. So we're working on like an ice cream man. An ice cream man. We're working on trying to make that happen. So stand by for hopefully a future episode. But if you're a scientist listening to us talk right now and you're screaming and ripping your hair out. Cause we're getting it so wrong. Email us@culturejustweedmail.com.

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Chris: Dot I mean, I just basically picture our entire audience as just like people ripping their hair out at how wrong we are all the time. So I don't know if that's gonna narrow it down, but, yeah, email us.

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Kayla: This is a pro science podcast. People are screaming, ripping their hair out while they listen to it.

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Chris: That's right. Allegedly pro science.

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Kayla: And just kind of piggybacking off of this, like science versus non science. There's one more thing I wanted to talk about that we didn't necessarily touch on in the interview, but I've sensed.

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Chris: One more science we need to butcher before we continue.

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Kayla: One more science we need to just destroy with our layperson's grasp. I wanted to talk about the weird overlap of legitimate and pseudoscience, like, legitimate science and pseudoscience that happens when you dive into cryonics. Talked a lot about that, but there's one event in particular that I think really encapsulates what makes this difficult to talk about in a purely science based, purely pseudoscience based way. And it's something called Radfest.

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Chris: Sounds rad.

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Kayla: I know I have to google it. Okay, so radfest stands for revolution against aging and death. And so this is a conference, I believe it's annual conference that occurs every year because it's annual.

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Chris: Such is the nature of annual conferences.

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Kayla: And many cryonicists will attend.

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Chris: So is this cryonics only, or is this cryonics as a part of the community that is revolutionizing against dying?

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Kayla: Cryonics is simply a part of this. Again, this is what makes this difficult. So Radfest will have speakers, I'm going to name some people, these types of people, not necessarily these people. We'll have speakers from companies like alcor. We'll have speakers that are like Doctor Greg Fahey from 21st century medicine, like folks that are more on the science side of this realm. They will also have speakers from, or be sponsored by groups like People Unlimited, which if you p, you, if you google people unlimited and you read their wikipedia page. Like, one of the first things it says is, people unlimited is a new religious movement.

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Chris: Oh, cult, cult.

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Kayla: And so, like, that's an organization that, for example, started with three leaders who. Their belief was that, okay, we don't have to die, and we can actually stop ourselves from dying with the power of positive thinking. What?

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Chris: That's just. I don't know. I shouldn't laugh at people.

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Kayla: Don't laugh at people. Yeah, one of those leaders died because.

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Chris: Don't laugh at people. Because they then do something that's even funnier.

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Kayla: Cause that happens to.

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Chris: No, it's not funny that they died, but it is ironic.

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Kayla: Yes. And so since then, the other founders of people unlimited have pivoted the movement to steer towards cryonics. Like, oh, cryonics is the answer to this.

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Chris: Okay, I'm sorry. Look, this is everything that we talk about on this show. There's always this, oh, well, if we think about something or want something hard enough, then it can just happen. And it's like, that's true, but you actually have to do it, though.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: Is it related to cryonics or is it bad?

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Chris: I think it's good.

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Kayla: Like, I don't know if it is.

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Chris: Good because maybe not good for cryonics. It's good for them. I'm just saying that, like, they have this philosophy that they can vibe their way into immortality and, like, sure, man, it's good to have a positive outlook, but then you have to do the thing. And so I think that it just feels like they're pivoting to, like, all right, fine, we'll do it.

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Kayla: I don't even think. I think that. I think that pivoting to cryonics is a. And this is not an episode about people unlimited, but I think that they're pivoting more to cryonics to retain membership. This is my personal perspective, not a definitive statement either way. Those are the kinds of groups that are also involved with, putting on and participating in Radfest. There are some really great articles that I will link to talking about this phenomenon with radfest of this kind of overlap of. Yeah, sure. There's, like, cryonics guys and real science guys and also a huge number of, like, almost more Sedona style, like, hippie techno futurists that are. That are here to engage in fantastical beliefs versus the hard science of what could be possible. And that overlap, I think, is something that can be damaging to places like Alcor.

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Kayla: I mean, if you are people unlimited. And you're also in Scottsdale, Arizona. It might be easy for people to confuse you with the quote unquote real science or proto science that's occurring at Alcor. And if you're both showing up at events like Radfest, again, that can be confusing or conflating.

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Chris: I would not join a club that would have me as a member.

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Kayla: There's so much overlap between true pseudoscience and new age belief, new age thoughts and what the hard science that other cryonicists are working towards. So it makes this space very difficult to operate in, I'm sure for everybody. I just wanted to mention the radfest thing, Kayla.

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Chris: When I visited Sedona and purchased magic crystals, $90 worth. Did I? Okay, I think I might cut that part because it's really embarrassing.

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Kayla: No, it shouldn't be. I love my crystals.

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Chris: Are you saying that those aren't real?

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Kayla: Well, I mean, they're. They're actual rocks. They're actual crystals.

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Chris: There you go. See, you heard it here first. Crystals are real. All right, folks, I think it's that time again. Let's talk about whether the thing is a cult or not. Now, what are we talking about? Are we talking about Alcor? Are we talking about the cryonics movement in general? What are we talking about here?

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Kayla: We are talking about cryonics. I do not feel comfortable or equipped to talk about any individual company and make any claims about what they are or not. But I totally feel equipped and certified and able to make a grand, sweeping claim about an entire field of study.

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Chris: This is the podcast of grand, sweeping claims. So let's get into it.

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Kayla: Stock cryonics.

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Chris: Is there a charismatic leader? What about James Bedford, the first guy that froze himself?

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Kayla: Or is it Robert Ettinger, who is considered the father of cryonics, who wrote the book the Prospect of Immortality in 1962, which kind of, like, launched the modern Cryonics movement. And he also founded both the Cryonics Institute, which is one of the cryopreservation companies, and something called the Immortalist Society.

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Chris: Okay, that one. That guy. It's him.

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Kayla: I don't know if people are necessarily, like, sitting around being like, mmm, thank God for Robert Ettinger. But if were to pick a charismatic leader, I think it would have to be him.

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Chris: Yeah, it seems like he kind of kicked it off. So, yes, I have no view as to whether he was charismatic or not. I don't get the impression that he was, like, trying to recruit people, though, into, like, a group.

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Kayla: I feel like I did not come across a lot of crazy reverence for him.

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Chris: Yeah. Or like, he's infallible. He's a reincarnation of the Buddha.

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Kayla: Yeah, it seems more like I'm trying to think of something to compare it to that we've talked about Mary Kay. It's definitely not a Mary Kay situation.

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Chris: Yeah, that's right. Because Mary Kay wants you to join her thing.

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Kayla: He's not a nine rand. You know, like, cryonics clearly exists outside of this person, versus objectivism exists only alongside Ayn Rand.

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Chris: Yeah, I think this is just. Charismatic leader. Low.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Expected harm. Is there financial harm? If this is like, let's say I'm thinking about this from a pure, like, a super skeptical standpoint. This is never going to happen. This is stupid. I. People are just giving their money for this speculative thing. That's a waste of time. Waste of money.

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Kayla: I think that if I'm gonna say that's harm, then I have to say that, like, the casket and funeral industry is also harm.

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Chris: Well, I mean, I'm not.

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Kayla: Not saying that, but, like, we have a problem, particularly in this country, with how expensive it is to die. So I don't know that somebody spending money on a life insurance policy is more harmful than somebody's family getting stuck with a $10,000 bill when they die. I don't know. I think that it's often presented by detractors as financial harm, as this is a scam.

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Chris: Right. But you're right. I think this is out of. I would either say this is low or out of scope. Right. Like, the scope of expected harm is. Let's talk about how expensive it is to die in America, not is this particular way to do it, you know, a financial harm. So I would say either low or we gotta. We gotta broaden the scope.

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Kayla: I think that, because I used to think that this was, like, super duper expensive. Like, maybe I'm a little more biased now because I'm like, oh, for a cup of coffee a day, I can freeze my body in liquid nitrogen. I think that somebody who was on the side of harm could make a very good argument to me about this being financial harm. If you wanted to sit down and talk to me about the potential scam of life insurance at all, I'm sure the argument could be made, but I'm just. I'm not seeing the harm here that I've seen in other groups that we've talked about. And, like, we specifically asked questions about, like, how does this life insurance policy work? Is everything left to Alcor?

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Kayla: Some of these cult leaders we've talked about, it's like people are going broke, people are going bankrupt, people are becoming financially destitute because they're leaving all their money to a leader of an organization. And that's not happening here.

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Chris: If you are a financial advisor listening right now and pulling your hair out.

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Kayla: I do want to say one thing about this, is that there are also instances in the cryonics community of people, like anything else in America, of people who are unable to get life insurance because they are already very ill, or if they simply do nothing, have the money to do this. There is precedent, and there have been cases where the community has fundraised for that patient to be able to sign up for cryonics. So that has happened.

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Chris: I'm calling low unexpectedly.

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Kayla: Is there any other potential harm here besides the financial?

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Chris: Well, they do freeze you, but they have to be legally dead. Like, it's very explicit that you have to be legally declared dead before they can start their shenanigans.

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Kayla: What about social harm?

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Chris: What's the social. Oh, like, if we only freeze Peter Thiels of the world, then, no, I didn't think.

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Kayla: I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking more like, this seems like something that might be difficult to tell your friends and family that you're doing.

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Chris: Yeah, but, like, I don't know. That's not the cryonics fault. Like, that's. I'm into something that is weird or different, and it's hard to tell my friends and family about it. I don't know. That doesn't feel like harm to me. That feels like sometimes it's hard to talk about stuff that is outside of the ordinary, outside of the mainstream.

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Kayla: So we're saying low.

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Chris: I think it was probably hard for my parents to talk to me about their end of life arrangements. That's also just a hard thing to talk about. So I'm gonna say low presence of ritual, I think, has the potential to be pretty high. Like, especially if we're not talking about, like, I think if were just talking about alcortain, I know there's probably people involved, like members and whatnot, that, like, probably have some pretty ritualistic. Ritualistic practices. Like, there's definitely jargon. So, you know, jargon counts, in my opinion. We've said that before on the show.

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Kayla: Oh, there's totally jargon.

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Chris: But I think if we're talking about the broader community, then it starts getting higher because, yeah, there is jargon. There is things like, well, calling it a proto science or Jacob Cook mentioned longevity, escape velocity, which I thought was, like, a cool way of expressing, like, how do you live long enough to live forever type thing.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: So, yeah, so there's jargon, but there's jargon with everything. Like, I don't think it's necessarily bad. It just constitutes ritual.

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Kayla: I mean, there are a lot of people participating frequently in the discord. Is that ritual? I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't.

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Chris: It's people that participate in our discord. Is that ritual? Yes, it is.

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Kayla: Join our cult.

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Chris: So what do you think on this one? Like, it's there. It's not. But they're not, like, having, like, church services. I don't know.

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Kayla: I don't know. I think it's low. And I think that, like, maybe some people are. I get the sense, especially from the interview with Jacob Cook, that, like, most people, like, that are into cryonics, kind of just, like, sign up for it, and then that's the extent of their involvement. And some people get more involved. I mean, there are. There are these. There are multiple different conferences. There are events. Like, there are other things that we could have talked more about that maybe fall more into ritual, but, like, the average typical user experience, I think, is pretty low on ritual.

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Chris: Okay, well, then that brings me to life consumption. Sounds like, generally speaking, a lot of people just set it and forget it. And it doesn't really consume their lives like, it consumes life insurance.

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Kayla: Yeah, consumers are life insurance.

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Chris: When your life is consumed by whatever kills you, then Alcor or whoever is, they can unconsume. I don't know. It's almost like anti life consumption. Would you like your life not to be consumed?

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Kayla: I think that this is like any.

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Chris: Freeze your body.

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Kayla: This is like any other hobby. And cryonics, as a practice does not dictate or even suggest how much of your life you should dedicate to it. I think some people sign up for it and go, okay, cool. I think some people get really into it. Like, you know, like, we talked to Jacob Cook. Some people spend a lot of time thinking and reading and researching and going to events. I think it's like any other hobby in that way. And particularly with this field, it. It is agnostic about your level of participation.

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Chris: It kind of feels like we keep going back to the cemetery thing, right. It kind of just feels like, for the most part, it's an end of life plan that doesn't constitute something that might, like, you know, consume all your time, but also there's, like, goth people that are, like, super into, like, the macabre and death and are, like, into death as a hobby. We all have to do our end of life plans, but some people are, like, fans of it. Kind of feels like that's what's going on here, too.

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Kayla: Yeah, it's fan. It's fandom versus casual participation.

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Chris: Right, right. So I'm gonna say low because it doesn't demand your life to be.

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Kayla: This is crazy.

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Chris: Low. Low. Low, low.

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Kayla: Because this is when I went.

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Chris: We're not even talking.

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Kayla: This is not what I was expecting.

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Chris: No, me either. Anti factuality.

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Kayla: I think that this is maybe where we're starting to get on something that is medium to high, because.

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Chris: Really?

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Kayla: Yes. Because while we have talked a lot about how, you know, this is a proto science versus a pseudoscience, I do think that as much as there are many people who are quite aware of the limitations here, I also think that there are enough people and enough prominent voices in cryonics that are maybe espousing more fantastical beliefs that I think that there is.

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Chris: There has been some weird quotes that we might talk about in future episodes.

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Kayla: Okay. I think that because there's so much overlap between science and pseudoscience, it feels safe to kind of say there's a middling level. If you get involved with this, it's quite likely you will be exposed to some antifactuality.

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Chris: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Yeah. I think the actual process of it, again, freezing, is a thing that's just science that doesn't feel like there's any sort of antifactuality going on there. If you're. If you have a what I consider a healthy viewpoint of speculatively, maybe one day they might be able to revive me. I don't know. Might as well. That doesn't feel anti factual. That just feels speculative. Right. But there are people that get more into. I guess if you talk about things like people unlimited or some of the stuff you were just talking about, you know, with super fans that get into some of the more pseudosciency type stuff, then it can get that way.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: So, like, a little bit. Some antifactuality. Your mileage may vary. Dogmatic beliefs. We're right. You're wrong. Again, I think there are some quotes out there that are, like, a little bit dogmatic. Like, if you don't do this, you're stupid type quotes.

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Kayla: Okay, well, I know what you're talking about.

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Chris: I know the quote. Yeah, exactly. But for the most part, I don't know. I don't feel like there's. It kind of feels like, well, I'm doing this because I think it's cool. Like, I'm not saying that you're an idiot for not doing it. I didn't really encounter that.

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Kayla: No. And I didn't encounter. Yeah. I think I get the sense more from this community that it's like, hey, here's a really cool thing. And, like, if you're into it too great versus, like, you're a dumbass for not.

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Chris: Right, right. We're correct. Everybody else is dumb.

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Kayla: And I think that sentiment, like anything else, that sentiment could probably exist here. I'm sure that there are some. You know, I'm sure there's some people. Like, there's some asshole people. But I don't get the sense that's, like. That's not, like, codified into the, quote unquote, like, belief system of cryonics.

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Chris: Yeah. It's not like with bitcoin where if you. Like. If you're into bitcoin, it's like, you know, you're going to die poor if you don't. If you're not into bitcoin, like, good luck being poor.

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Kayla: Right?

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Chris: Okay, chain of victims. We already talked about this. Not being very recruiting a chain of recruits, I guess. Sorry, chain of recruits.

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Kayla: I mean, this is something else we.

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Chris: Talked about, like, but you are recruited and I am, too, kind of. I mean, I. I totally want to. Yeah. I want to be full disclosure. I'm down.

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Kayla: I'm down.

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Chris: I'm gonna do it.

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Kayla: I don't think. I don't think I can afford the life insurance I would need. So maybe if I become a little more wealthy than I currently am, maybe.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: But I would prefer this than other end of life options, for sure.

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Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Freeze me. I don't know.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: Wouldn't it be wild, though? Did I mention this on a previous show? Like, you're just driving down the street.

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Kayla: And then all of a sudden you're in 3000 years in the future, and.

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Chris: Then, like, turns out there was, like, an accident where you were like, you know, we're legally declared dead. You got frozen. So you're just driving down this from your perspective. All of a sudden, like, you. You hear a screeching sound to your left, and then the very next second, you're being woken up in, like, some fucking fallout situation where you're like, way in the future and everything's bizarre and there's lizard people. Like, what the fuck, man? That must be disorienting as well. This is like, we didn't really get into this, but the rehab bit is, like, big.

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Kayla: It's already disorienting enough coming out of, like, surgery.

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Chris: Yeah, I know. This would be, like, coming out of the world's craziest surgery.

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Kayla: So now you're talking me out of it. What criteria are we talking about again?

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Chris: This one is chain of recruits. Because were talking about whether we got recruited or not.

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Kayla: Look, I think that there is potential for chain of recruits just because. Yeah. You hear about it and you might go, ooh, but.

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Chris: But not really. I mean, this isn't, like, an MLM situation.

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Kayla: No. And they can't, like, take off. Like, you know, the Kranix community is still quite small. We're.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: The difficulty of, like, even getting billionaires invested in this. And billionaires are doing stupid things, like reinforcing their Tesla windows. So, like, billionaires are doing crazy fucking things. They're spending, like, $1,000 a day or whatever it is that one guy is doing to de age himself by one year or putting baby blood into their.

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Chris: Would you get a blood boy?

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Kayla: What am I.

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Chris: Should we do an episode on Blood Boys this season? We should do an episode on Blood Boys.

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Kayla: But I feel like we have to talk about that billionaire who's taking his son's blood specifically because he lives, like, 20 minutes south.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah.

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Kayla: He's, like, down the street.

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Chris: Oh, shit. We could, like, interview him in person. He might suck my blood, though. I don't know. I have pretty good blood.

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Kayla: Chain of recruits. I think that it's low.

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Chris: I'm gonna say low for that. I am one of the recruits. Although now we need to discuss it because of how disorienting it would be to just randomly wake up in year 30, 55 with lizard people. Final one. Safe or unsafe exit?

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Kayla: Safe as hell. We talk.

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Chris: But this is funny because, like. Yeah, yeah, you did talk about that on the. In the interview.

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Kayla: I mean, I guess he didn't. I guess Jacob Cook didn't leave cryonics, but he did, like, shift from one Kranix company to another for, like, financial reasons. And I don't think he's getting, like, shunned by any corner of the community.

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Chris: But what about the exit from the block of ice? Okay, that seems like that could be pretty unsafe until we have the technology. If you take me out now, that's an unsafe exit.

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Kayla: That's an unsafe exit. I think we're talking about unsafe exit from the community.

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Chris: Oh, yeah, I guess that's right.

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Kayla: And I think it is very.

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Chris: I just keep thinking of unfrozen caveman, lawyer.

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Kayla: I know. What a sketch. Everybody should go watch that. Given that there are very high profile people who have exited the community, like Larry King and Timothy Leary, people are able to decide, actually, no, I don't want this. And then that's fine. So I think that it's fine.

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Chris: All right. So more or less across the board.

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Kayla: I can't believe this.

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Chris: This is one of, like, the lowest scoring.

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Kayla: I think.

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Chris: We'Re just talking about a cool thing. That's a science that sometimes has some folks that veer into pseudoscience. Look, I don't think it means that we chose poorly for the show.

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Kayla: We're talking about the promise of an afterlife, and people are spending money and dedicating their lives to the promise of an afterlife. How did that score low? It's amazing.

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Chris: Oh, we didn't talk about niche. I'm sorry. We forgot niche.

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Kayla: It's niche's house. What's a cult?

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Chris: Never mind cult. Okay, so it does score super high on niche.

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Kayla: That is the highest.

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Chris: Definitely. It's highest score for sure. But it doesn't have any of the other stuff. Look, I don't think it was a bad topic to choose. I just think that humans dealing with death is pretty ubiquitous, so it doesn't feel as out of the ordnance. Like, when you really examine it right? When you do things like, how is this any different from regular funeral arrangements? Like, when you examine it through that lens, it just doesn't seem weird.

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Kayla: Right?

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Chris: I think that's what happened. I do think that when we initially chose this, were like, man, that's pretty weird.

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Kayla: Yeah, maybe we got into the cult and that's why we can't accurately that.

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Chris: We'Re like, this thing that we're in is definitely not a cult, you guys. So we're not weird? We're fine. It's fine.

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Kayla: So cryonics. Just weird.

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Chris: Just weird. Yeah, see? It is weird.

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Kayla: It is weird. It's extremely weird, for sure.

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Chris: But as we know, weird can be good.

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Kayla: So that was our discussion on cryonics. We'll have more discussions for you in the future that might butt up against this topic, but for now. But. But if you want to chat more about anything we talked about in this episode, you can visit us at our discord, which is linked in the show notes. And you can, as always, support the show by going to patreon.com. Cult or just weird?

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Chris: This is Kayla, and this is Chris. And this has been cult or just.

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Kayla: Weird Frozen caveman lawyer edition or unfrozen Caveman.

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Chris: Frozen Caveman. Podcaster.