Feb. 25, 2024
S5-and-a-half: Patreon Discussion of Season 5
Wanna chat about the episode? Or just hang out? --- Chris & Kayla recap the experience of experiencing things for Season 5 of Cult or Just Weird. (previously published on CoJW's patreon: ) --- *Patreon Credits*...
Wanna chat about the episode? Or just hang out?
---
Chris & Kayla recap the experience of experiencing things for Season 5 of Cult or Just Weird.
(previously published on CoJW's patreon: https://www.patreon.com/posts/season-5-bonus-95443966)
---
*Patreon Credits*
Michaela Evans, Heather Aunspach, Alyssa Ottum, David Whiteside, Jade A, amy sarah marshall, Martina Dobson, Eillie Anzilotti, Lewis Brown, Kelly Smith Upton, Wild Hunt Alex, Niklas Brock
<<>>
Jenny Lamb, Matthew Walden, Rebecca Kirsch, Pam Westergard, Ryan Quinn, Paul Sweeney, Erin Bratu, Liz T, Lianne Cole, Samantha Bayliff, Katie Larimer, Fio H, Jessica Senk, Proper Gander, Nancy Carlson, Carly Westergard-Dobson, banana, Megan Blackburn, Instantly Joy, Athena of CaveSystem, John Grelish, Rose Kerchinske, Annika Ramen, Alicia Smith, Kevin, Velm, Dan Malmud, tiny, Dom, Tribe Label - Panda - Austin, Noelle Hoover, Tesa Hamilton, Nicole Carter, Paige, Brian Lancaster, tiny
Transcript
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Chris: Hello, lovely patrons. It's Chris here from cult or just weird? And also Kayla.
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Kayla: I thought you were gonna say my name.
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Chris: I wasn't. I was waiting for you to say your own name.
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Kayla: Well, I'm here too. We just got finished recording the season five finale, and now we're here to record the season five finale. Bonus content.
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Chris: This is more of like a season five bonus. It's like a. Like, what we're here to talk about today is actually sort of. It's season five summing up season five. Or. It's not really summing it up. We can do a little bit of a summary, but I wanted to just reflect on the nature of season five's theme.
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Kayla: Okay.
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Chris: Because it hit a little different, I think, than previous season's themes. Previous season's themes have been around, actually. Have we even done more than one theme? I've said previous seasons, but I think only season four had a theme. Season four was the, like, find the helpers theme, but, like, season three didn't have any themes.
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Kayla: No, it didn't. But we did.
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Chris: Well, no.
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Kayla: We did get to season four through the finale of season three.
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Chris: Okay. So season three plays into it. Okay.
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Kayla: Season two had a lot of, like, qanon stuff.
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Chris: That's just. Cause we did a lot of episodes on QAnon.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: All right, so here on our second out of two themes, I'm thinking about themes. I just want to talk about the feelings that come with going and participating in things, because it's different.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: Like doing episodes where we're just doing online and other, you know, 2nd, 3rd party research.
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Kayla: Even when we have, like, interviews or something.
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Chris: Even when we have interviews. Because the interview is buy in. Right. Like, when we. Whenever we do those types of episodes, there's this distance. There's this, like, observer distance that we have with the topic.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: And like you said, with. With the interviews, there's buy in. Like, if we interview someone, it's because we reached out to them on behalf of the podcast. Right. It's because we talked to them on behalf of the podcast and said, you're gonna be in a podcast. Let's talk about something. So there's no, like, everything. All the cards are on the table. Whereas participation in events, there's this sort of, like, weird dichotomy of, like, well, are we participants or are we observers?
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Kayla: Especially because so much of what we, like, participated in was, like, cool stuff that I wanted to do anyway.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: I mean, it's always like, I'm, like, I'm here because I really want to be here. And also, I'm here for my show, and I don't know how to. I don't know how to make, like, if I'm telling somebody, like, hey, I'm here because I'm doing it for my show, and also because I really want to be here. I don't know how to make those both have the same, like, weight and gravity.
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Chris: Yeah. And every time that you and I went to a place, like we had, we discussed ahead of time, were like, what do we do? Like, do we say that this is for a podcast? Do we say that's why we're here? Or do we just participate, like, anybody? Cause everything that went to was. Was open. It's not like were going under, like, false pretenses.
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Kayla: No, we didn't go to any closed meetings.
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Chris: We didn't go to any closed meetings. We didn't misrepresent who were. It was just like, oh, hey, like, you can come to this philosophical research society thing, or, oh, on Sundays, we do a meeting, the discussion group at theosophical Society. So there's just, like, open stuff. But still, it feels like by. If were to withhold the Inf, weren't being upfront about the fact that we had a podcast and that this is, like, motivating us to be here, then it feels like we're being disingenuous and we're like, I don't know, almost like we're spying on people somehow, like, in this weird way. And I know all this rant is probably just, like, journalism 101 stuff that I just never did. Journalism stuff.
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Kayla: I'll tell you, we didn't go to college for this. We are not journalists.
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Chris: Yeah, this is.
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Kayla: This is two dumbasses with a microphone.
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Chris: Yeah, this is the. Oh, shit, we're not journalists season. Yeah. I don't know. It just. It was a challenge to maintain. Cause, like, there's value in both sides of this thing, right? Like, there's value in, like, I am interacting with these people on a human level because they're a person and I'm a person, and we're both interested in this thing.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: But then there's also value in the, like, observing without disturbing. Because, like, as soon as you say, like, oh, you're from a podcast or something, then, like, unconsciously or consciously, it changes people's behaviors and how they. Things they may or may not say.
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Kayla: If you did run into, like, somebody did say, oh, now that I know that there's, like, this kind of person here. I'm going to, like, somebody literally said, I'm going to alter how I behave in this group because these people are here observing.
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Chris: Right.
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Kayla: Which I felt kind of bad about.
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Chris: Which felt really bad.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: But, yeah, I don't know. I never know what's the right direction to take that as the right direction to be like, no, I'm just here because it's an open thing and it's whatever. Don't bring up the podcast. Just observe what happens. Or is the thing or is the correct thing to do is to say, like, this is why I'm here, and I might talk about you later onto a microphone.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: And I still don't have a great answer for that.
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Kayla: And I think it's also, like, I also think about the other way of, like, how it changes how I think and feel about the quote unquote subject or topic. Like, I feel very, like, and this is paternalistic, but I do. I feel very protective of some of the people and groups that we've talked about this season because I'm like, you know, so and so at theosophical society was so welcoming. I don't want. I don't want to produce an episode about this that makes somebody out there think poorly of them. I felt very cognizant of that, of, like, I feel protective of these people. I think they're doing nothing wrong, and I like them, and they were kind to me, and so I don't want to produce something that makes them look bad. And that's, you know, that's a bias. Yeah, that's a bias.
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Kayla: And it's also, like, that's different than, like, I write about this on the Internet.
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Chris: Right. But I think that's what makes it so challenging is. Cause it's like, you. It's an inescapable bias that once you know, once you actually talk to somebody face to face.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: You know, they're no longer a subject. They are a real person.
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Kayla: We probably should have, like, studied sociology.
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Chris: Or anthropology or literally anything that has to do with.
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Kayla: You should have gone to journalism school and I should have gone to, like, sociology school.
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Chris: I guess we've had time by now. This is our fifth season. Yeah, we have an excuse. Maybe we should do that in the off season, actually go to journalism or at least, like, take some classes or something. I'm just afraid that, like, because, like, the last time I talked to, like, a real journalist about this, who was, like, a really very good person, like, and very good journalist, like, almost won a Pulitzer I think multiple times when they were talking to me about. Cause I basically was like, hey, do you have any advice? So this is, like, I think, second season. So we're trying to improve. Do you have any advice? And most of it was stuff that.
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Kayla: Not actionable for you or I.
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Chris: No, it's not that it's not actionable. It's that it was stuff that were kind of already doing.
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Kayla: Like what?
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Chris: And it didn't speak to this. Like, how do you deal with. Relationship with your subject? And I wish that I had asked about that, but the stuff, you need.
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Kayla: To go ask about that, particularly because this journalist.
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Chris: I don't know if I want to say the subject that he has, like.
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Kayla: A long amount of time with a very problematic political figure.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: And I. And, like, I know. And this is not the only journalist to do that. Like, a lot of, like, that's it. That's a. A form of journalism where you go and, like, embed essentially with, like, really bad, odious person who knows you're writing a story about them.
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Chris: Right.
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Kayla: And so, like, I'm assuming. I don't know anything about how this works. I'm assuming you have to, like, have a friendly enough relationship with them where, like, they open up to you and, like, you guys want to hang out, but you know that, like, this person fucking sucks, and I'm gonna write an article about them that shows how much they fucking suck.
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Chris: I would love to know about the mind fuck of that kind of thing, but, yeah. Anyway, I just. I wish I had talked to him about that. The stuff that I was saying that were kind of things that were already doing was, like, sort of baseline things, were where he talked about the subject matter needs to be both. It needs to be truthful and also newsworthy. Right. Because there's, like, things out there where it's like, yes, this is the truth, but is it newsworthy? Is this important to know? And actually, now that I think back, it was when were doing the. It was before were doing the QAnon episodes. And my concern was, are we amplifying or are we informing?
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Chris: And I think that's why his answer was more geared around that, which was like, well, you need to think about, like, you know, is what you're saying, like, both true and newsworthy? Because if it's not, then, like, you're not adding anything to the conversation. You're just potentially amplifying something bad.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: So, yeah, I kind of want to go back and talk to him now about, like, what do you do when you. When you're, like, not sure whether the subject matter. You're hanging out with someone, and then it makes you biased, but also, they're a person. What do.
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Kayla: What do.
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Chris: I'm sorry, I don't have a good answer for this either. Just like the death Cafe episode where I didn't have a good answer for what happens after you die. I don't have a good answer for, like, how we would. How we should handle this in future participatory experiences.
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Kayla: Well, I think it's really interesting because part of why we did this, like, let's go to a thing in Los Angeles. The season is because of the finale of the previous season where went to the ethereus society.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: And were like, this is right in our own backyard. We should do a whole season of this. And what else did we feel about that? We felt really fucking bad and weird going to the etherea society, and we didn't tell them. Yeah, went as participants, but we did not inform.
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Chris: And it's an open meeting.
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Kayla: It's an open meeting. We didn't misrepresent ourselves in any way, but we did not lead with the information, which we did. We tended to do that this season.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: Was lead with that information.
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Chris: We tended to err on the side of, like, we are here for ourselves, but we are also doing a podcast episode on this thing.
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Kayla: And part of that was informed by that experience with the etherea society where we really enjoyed going and visiting and then felt uncomfortable with, okay, how do we now talk about this experience that we had?
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Chris: Yeah. And I was having a discussion about this very thing, actually, on our discord a few weeks back, where there's inherently a power dynamic to this study or the subject relationship. It's sort of, like, unavoidable.
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Kayla: We should have done sociology classes.
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Chris: Well, so it actually reminds me, I know I've told you this story a million times, but one of the more interesting epiphanies I had in college was. So at the University of Pennsylvania, there is a very sort of, like, I don't know, big or well known or, I don't know. They have anthropology museum, and I took a class called empire in literature and film, and one of the things we did was visit the museum to learn about all these different, you know, artifacts from different empires and whatever. But one of the things. One of the primary, the thing that stuck with me was how the professor was telling us, like, museums are also tools of empire, which, like, I guess in the year of our Lord 2023, probably doesn't sound like crazy or surprising to anybody.
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Chris: That's sort of like old news because, like, British Museum, right? You just point to that and be like, look at those fuckers.
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Kayla: The reason why the British Museum is so big and has so much stuff from, like, Egypt and other plundered places is because the British Museum was the british empire. The british empire was a huge empire. Went and took all this stuff from the places that they quote unquote conquered and then put it in their museum.
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Chris: Right? And so that seems obvious now, but at the time, I was like, I had only ever thought of museums as.
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Kayla: Like, this belongs in a museum.
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Chris: Yeah, this belongs in a museum. And, like, erudite places of learning and study. And they could only be good academic places.
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Kayla: Right?
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Chris: I guess it's not like maybe judgment call. Maybe saying good is not the right word here because I don't know if it's necessarily means that they're. They can be good or bad, but I think there's definitely power dynamic, objectively good.
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Kayla: And then went to something more nuanced.
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Chris: Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah, of course. No, that was the trajectory for me. And it reminds me of this. Right? Because it's not just like, I don't think you have to be like a colonial military superpower that is literally plundering artifacts from their homeland for there to be a power dynamic between the subject and the researcher. And I think that was actually part of what the lesson was in that class, too. It wasn't just like, oh, yeah, we plundered all this stuff. It was like, museums are a tool. They're not just a repository for imperial loot. They are a tool for extending imperial power and bringing that. That notion of, yes, we are better than these people because. And it's not, you know, it's not explicit, but, like, if you're studying some other culture's artifacts in your museum, there's that.
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Chris: It puts you on a different level. It puts you on. And it says, like, oh, our culture is on a level higher than this other culture because we are studying it, right? And I'm not sitting, I'm not like a crazy person sitting here saying like, oh, no, we should never. Like, anthropology is a tool of colonial. No. Like, studying cultures is important and good, but it's also important, I think, to think about the power dynamic inherent in someone who is a researcher and someone who is a subject and bringing it back to our season, I felt that during our season where, like, even though weren't going with bad intentions, even though weren't going to, like, you know, steal fucking Tutankhamun's treasures from theosophical society downtown.
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Kayla: Cool.
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Chris: Which. Which would have been awesome. Totally would have stolen them. Even though weren't doing that, there was still this feeling of, like, power dynamic that felt icky in a way.
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Kayla: And definitely felt like it needed to be addressed. Like, I don't think we ever felt. I think some of the places where I felt comfortable with it were like, I didn't feel uncomfortable visiting the philosophical Research Society for the first time because that was like talking about a documentary. Like, that was a. Clearly there was not a. We were not doing a, like, we are coming to observe you. It was like went to a.
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Chris: Documentary screening, and there was also a lot of people. I think that makes a difference.
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Kayla: There was a lot of people.
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Chris: There was like 200 people there.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: And there was no participation, really, expectation from audience members. I think that also makes a difference.
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Kayla: Right. I didn't feel this when went to ecstatic dance. I didn't feel this when we talked about objectivism, largely because, like, you were from the community.
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Chris: I mean, I was the president of the Upenn Objectivist Club for that year, so.
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Kayla: So it's like, if you can't, I.
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Chris: Get to talk about it.
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Kayla: Yeah. I literally want to, like, look at what else we did. I.
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Chris: How did you feel when went to the Hare Krishna temple? Felt that for sure you felt weird there or you didn't feel weird?
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Kayla: I felt uncomfortable that it was not. That I did not have the chance to really disclose to anyone, like, hey, we're here for a podcast.
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Chris: See, I think that I felt maybe less comfortable there than I did at, say, prs with the source family, but I still felt pretty comfortable there. And I think that for that, it was, again, somewhat volume. There was a decent number of people there. But also, I think a lot of it is. Yeah. Is that participation, right. Like, when there's like seven people on a roundtable in a discussion group and you don't say, oh, yeah, by the way, I'm gonna do a podcast on this.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: That feels much more awkward than when you're just, like, sitting in a beautiful temple listening to beautiful singing.
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Kayla: Right. One's a church service versus, like, a small. A small group.
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Chris: Yeah. And, yeah, and I think with Ethereus, like, if we had just gone to their service versus talking personally with the folks in charge there and, like, them treating us nicely, like, if we just went to the church service and left, I don't think it would have felt nearly as weird.
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Kayla: And that's what felt. That was like, the discomfort around doing theosophy was you made it clear upfront when you reached out initially, like, hey, we're doing this for the podcast. And so you went through a lot of those kinds of hoops of saying, like, we're doing this for the podcast. Hello. Let me have a conversation with the guy running this. Let me have a conversation with the guy running that. And then when went and took the class, there wasn't really the opportunity to say, like, hey, we're the guys who are here with the podcast. We went mostly as participants, right. And that felt like a weird, like, nebulous, liminal space where I'm like, we disclosed why were here, but, like, that lady sitting over there doesn't know why I'm here.
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Chris: Right, right. And there was. It was like one of those sitcom situations, too, where it's like, you're like, okay, we'll tell them, you know, that we're with the podcast or whatever. But, like, you get there and, like, it starts, and the other guys, you know, the discussion leader is talking, and then you're like, okay, as soon as we go around and introduce ourselves, that'll be a good time. But then that never happens. And then you're like, okay, well, I guess we'll just cut in when we can. And then before you know it, the meeting's over. And you're like, shit.
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Kayla: And then I also have. For me, I have a desire to not, like, undermine my own authentic interest in these things.
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Chris: Right.
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Kayla: There is also a truth here. That is, I find these groups, yes, because of this show, but that doesn't mean my interest in them is not authentic. And, like, particularly, I felt that this season, with the things that I wasn't comfortable with, I really, personally, outside of this show, enjoyed my time at theosophical Society. I will be attending more classes. I will be reading more about this. I will be learning more about this. Same with the Hare Krishna temple. I feel like there's. I have some, like, some of the hesitation to disclose also comes from. I don't want you to think I'm just here for the show because I'm not just here for the show. I'm here because I'm interested in this and I do want to learn. And maybe this is for me. And there is some aspect of, quote unquote truth seeking.
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Kayla: So I don't want to. I don't want the other person to have the wrong judgment of me. But that feels weird.
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Chris: Yeah, I know, it feels a little bit like cake and eat it, too there. You know, like, I want to be this, but also that, like, I even felt it with the death cafe a bit when the in person one, I think I actually. Maybe I felt this a couple times this season. But there's another aspect of it, too, where it's like, oh, you do a podcast. Oh, cool. Like, and then you can kind of tell that you are. And this is like, whatever. This is fine. We have a podcast, and it's okay. But you get viewed a little bit differently. You get viewed as sort of, like, you know, the reporter with a notepad versus, like, participant.
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Chris: And then I don't know whether I'm, like, cleared for takeoff in terms of talking about the thing, because I'm not sure if people will think, well, is he talking about this because he has genuine. Something genuine to bring up or talk about or whatever? Or is this just him, like, fishing for content, you know?
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Kayla: Yeah. And that does feel like a personal problem. That feels like, excuse me.
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Chris: Jesus Christ.
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Kayla: I met with myself. I meant, like, this is not somebody else doing that to us. This is us doing it to ourselves.
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Chris: Yeah, of course. Of course.
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Kayla: And I think that's just, you know, we're not journalists, but this is probably something that journalists have to just, like, suck it up, get comfy with. And, like, you know, when we watch shows like Nathan for you or how to with John Wilson, it's like these guys go and, like, build relationships with, quote unquote subjects and then, like, hang out and have a good time and do the thing, and we see journalists.
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Chris: And exploit them for laughs.
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Kayla: I mean, yeah, that's a whole other topic. But you see journalists do this all the time, too. Like, yeah, I don't know why. I honestly think that my genuine interest in some of these things makes it feel almost more uncomfortable.
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Chris: I agree. And I think we just did a whole bonus episode on whining. Whining about how our fifi's or how I feel awkward and we just need to kind of get over it.
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Kayla: No, I think it is reasonable to talk about, hey, this season went, let's go do things in person without necessarily, like, grappling with the fact that would make some aspects of creating this content different.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: And, you know, it's like the people listening to this show are similar to us in that they are, like, interested in weird groups. And I do wonder if other people maybe sometimes have these feelings even when they're not doing a show, but if they're attending a group because they're like, oh, this might be interesting and cool and weird and maybe not necessarily something that, like, they themselves are gonna keep doing. I think that's a normal human. Like, people go and do things for a laugh. You know, people go and do things for a bit or for the story. And does that make them bad and wrong and weird? No, but it might make you feel a little uncomfortable in the moment if.
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Chris: You'Re like, it also depends.
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Kayla: The people here think, I'm doing this for serious, but I'm here for.
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Chris: Yeah, I get what you mean. Yeah. There's podcasts is one of only many reasons that you might attend something where you're there for a different reason other than purely attending the thing. And I think that can probably range from, like, pretty benign, like, oh, I just have a fascination with these topics. It's not that I want to be a theosophist. It's that I want to observe theosophy in practice. That feels totally fine, but maybe might still feel awkward to the person. And I think that there's another end of that spectrum, which is pretty rude, and I want to make fun of you later.
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Kayla: Yeah, I'm milking you as a lolcow.
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Chris: Right? Exactly right. So I think that there's a whole spectrum of that. I mean, I hope that we're closer on the less shitty side of that spectrum, but it's just something that I felt that was worth talking about because, like, the experiences of this season were very interesting in their own rights, but then the experience of the experience, I thought, deserved its own little discussion.
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Kayla: It's meta as hell, and you know.
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Chris: How much I love meta stuff.
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Kayla: You do.
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Chris: All right, you guys. Well, again, come chat about it on discord. Even though we're offline on the podcast for a few months, we will still be on the discord, posting really stupid memes and bitching about capitalism.
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Kayla: That's all I ever do.
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Chris: That's Kayla's whole life. This is Kayla, and this is Chris.
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Kayla: And this has been cult or just weird.
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Chris: Bonus season five. What the hell was happening?
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Kayla: Finale content. The end.
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Chris: Hello, lovely patrons. It's Chris here from cult or just weird? And also Kayla.
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Kayla: I thought you were gonna say my name.
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Chris: I wasn't. I was waiting for you to say your own name.
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Kayla: Well, I'm here too. We just got finished recording the season five finale, and now we're here to record the season five finale. Bonus content.
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Chris: This is more of like a season five bonus. It's like a. Like, what we're here to talk about today is actually sort of. It's season five summing up season five. Or. It's not really summing it up. We can do a little bit of a summary, but I wanted to just reflect on the nature of season five's theme.
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Kayla: Okay.
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Chris: Because it hit a little different, I think, than previous season's themes. Previous season's themes have been around, actually. Have we even done more than one theme? I've said previous seasons, but I think only season four had a theme. Season four was the, like, find the helpers theme, but, like, season three didn't have any themes.
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Kayla: No, it didn't. But we did.
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Chris: Well, no.
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Kayla: We did get to season four through the finale of season three.
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Chris: Okay. So season three plays into it. Okay.
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Kayla: Season two had a lot of, like, qanon stuff.
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Chris: That's just. Cause we did a lot of episodes on QAnon.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: All right, so here on our second out of two themes, I'm thinking about themes. I just want to talk about the feelings that come with going and participating in things, because it's different.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: Like doing episodes where we're just doing online and other, you know, 2nd, 3rd party research.
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Kayla: Even when we have, like, interviews or something.
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Chris: Even when we have interviews. Because the interview is buy in. Right. Like, when we. Whenever we do those types of episodes, there's this distance. There's this, like, observer distance that we have with the topic.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: And like you said, with. With the interviews, there's buy in. Like, if we interview someone, it's because we reached out to them on behalf of the podcast. Right. It's because we talked to them on behalf of the podcast and said, you're gonna be in a podcast. Let's talk about something. So there's no, like, everything. All the cards are on the table. Whereas participation in events, there's this sort of, like, weird dichotomy of, like, well, are we participants or are we observers?
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Kayla: Especially because so much of what we, like, participated in was, like, cool stuff that I wanted to do anyway.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: I mean, it's always like, I'm, like, I'm here because I really want to be here. And also, I'm here for my show, and I don't know how to. I don't know how to make, like, if I'm telling somebody, like, hey, I'm here because I'm doing it for my show, and also because I really want to be here. I don't know how to make those both have the same, like, weight and gravity.
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Chris: Yeah. And every time that you and I went to a place, like we had, we discussed ahead of time, were like, what do we do? Like, do we say that this is for a podcast? Do we say that's why we're here? Or do we just participate, like, anybody? Cause everything that went to was. Was open. It's not like were going under, like, false pretenses.
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Kayla: No, we didn't go to any closed meetings.
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Chris: We didn't go to any closed meetings. We didn't misrepresent who were. It was just like, oh, hey, like, you can come to this philosophical research society thing, or, oh, on Sundays, we do a meeting, the discussion group at theosophical Society. So there's just, like, open stuff. But still, it feels like by. If were to withhold the Inf, weren't being upfront about the fact that we had a podcast and that this is, like, motivating us to be here, then it feels like we're being disingenuous and we're like, I don't know, almost like we're spying on people somehow, like, in this weird way. And I know all this rant is probably just, like, journalism 101 stuff that I just never did. Journalism stuff.
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Kayla: I'll tell you, we didn't go to college for this. We are not journalists.
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Chris: Yeah, this is.
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Kayla: This is two dumbasses with a microphone.
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Chris: Yeah, this is the. Oh, shit, we're not journalists season. Yeah. I don't know. It just. It was a challenge to maintain. Cause, like, there's value in both sides of this thing, right? Like, there's value in, like, I am interacting with these people on a human level because they're a person and I'm a person, and we're both interested in this thing.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: But then there's also value in the, like, observing without disturbing. Because, like, as soon as you say, like, oh, you're from a podcast or something, then, like, unconsciously or consciously, it changes people's behaviors and how they. Things they may or may not say.
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Kayla: If you did run into, like, somebody did say, oh, now that I know that there's, like, this kind of person here. I'm going to, like, somebody literally said, I'm going to alter how I behave in this group because these people are here observing.
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Chris: Right.
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Kayla: Which I felt kind of bad about.
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Chris: Which felt really bad.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: But, yeah, I don't know. I never know what's the right direction to take that as the right direction to be like, no, I'm just here because it's an open thing and it's whatever. Don't bring up the podcast. Just observe what happens. Or is the thing or is the correct thing to do is to say, like, this is why I'm here, and I might talk about you later onto a microphone.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: And I still don't have a great answer for that.
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Kayla: And I think it's also, like, I also think about the other way of, like, how it changes how I think and feel about the quote unquote subject or topic. Like, I feel very, like, and this is paternalistic, but I do. I feel very protective of some of the people and groups that we've talked about this season because I'm like, you know, so and so at theosophical society was so welcoming. I don't want. I don't want to produce an episode about this that makes somebody out there think poorly of them. I felt very cognizant of that, of, like, I feel protective of these people. I think they're doing nothing wrong, and I like them, and they were kind to me, and so I don't want to produce something that makes them look bad. And that's, you know, that's a bias. Yeah, that's a bias.
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Kayla: And it's also, like, that's different than, like, I write about this on the Internet.
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Chris: Right. But I think that's what makes it so challenging is. Cause it's like, you. It's an inescapable bias that once you know, once you actually talk to somebody face to face.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: You know, they're no longer a subject. They are a real person.
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Kayla: We probably should have, like, studied sociology.
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Chris: Or anthropology or literally anything that has to do with.
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Kayla: You should have gone to journalism school and I should have gone to, like, sociology school.
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Chris: I guess we've had time by now. This is our fifth season. Yeah, we have an excuse. Maybe we should do that in the off season, actually go to journalism or at least, like, take some classes or something. I'm just afraid that, like, because, like, the last time I talked to, like, a real journalist about this, who was, like, a really very good person, like, and very good journalist, like, almost won a Pulitzer I think multiple times when they were talking to me about. Cause I basically was like, hey, do you have any advice? So this is, like, I think, second season. So we're trying to improve. Do you have any advice? And most of it was stuff that.
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Kayla: Not actionable for you or I.
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Chris: No, it's not that it's not actionable. It's that it was stuff that were kind of already doing.
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Kayla: Like what?
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Chris: And it didn't speak to this. Like, how do you deal with. Relationship with your subject? And I wish that I had asked about that, but the stuff, you need.
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Kayla: To go ask about that, particularly because this journalist.
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Chris: I don't know if I want to say the subject that he has, like.
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Kayla: A long amount of time with a very problematic political figure.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: And I. And, like, I know. And this is not the only journalist to do that. Like, a lot of, like, that's it. That's a. A form of journalism where you go and, like, embed essentially with, like, really bad, odious person who knows you're writing a story about them.
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Chris: Right.
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Kayla: And so, like, I'm assuming. I don't know anything about how this works. I'm assuming you have to, like, have a friendly enough relationship with them where, like, they open up to you and, like, you guys want to hang out, but you know that, like, this person fucking sucks, and I'm gonna write an article about them that shows how much they fucking suck.
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Chris: I would love to know about the mind fuck of that kind of thing, but, yeah. Anyway, I just. I wish I had talked to him about that. The stuff that I was saying that were kind of things that were already doing was, like, sort of baseline things, were where he talked about the subject matter needs to be both. It needs to be truthful and also newsworthy. Right. Because there's, like, things out there where it's like, yes, this is the truth, but is it newsworthy? Is this important to know? And actually, now that I think back, it was when were doing the. It was before were doing the QAnon episodes. And my concern was, are we amplifying or are we informing?
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Chris: And I think that's why his answer was more geared around that, which was like, well, you need to think about, like, you know, is what you're saying, like, both true and newsworthy? Because if it's not, then, like, you're not adding anything to the conversation. You're just potentially amplifying something bad.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: So, yeah, I kind of want to go back and talk to him now about, like, what do you do when you. When you're, like, not sure whether the subject matter. You're hanging out with someone, and then it makes you biased, but also, they're a person. What do.
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Kayla: What do.
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Chris: I'm sorry, I don't have a good answer for this either. Just like the death Cafe episode where I didn't have a good answer for what happens after you die. I don't have a good answer for, like, how we would. How we should handle this in future participatory experiences.
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Kayla: Well, I think it's really interesting because part of why we did this, like, let's go to a thing in Los Angeles. The season is because of the finale of the previous season where went to the ethereus society.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: And were like, this is right in our own backyard. We should do a whole season of this. And what else did we feel about that? We felt really fucking bad and weird going to the etherea society, and we didn't tell them. Yeah, went as participants, but we did not inform.
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Chris: And it's an open meeting.
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Kayla: It's an open meeting. We didn't misrepresent ourselves in any way, but we did not lead with the information, which we did. We tended to do that this season.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: Was lead with that information.
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Chris: We tended to err on the side of, like, we are here for ourselves, but we are also doing a podcast episode on this thing.
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Kayla: And part of that was informed by that experience with the etherea society where we really enjoyed going and visiting and then felt uncomfortable with, okay, how do we now talk about this experience that we had?
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Chris: Yeah. And I was having a discussion about this very thing, actually, on our discord a few weeks back, where there's inherently a power dynamic to this study or the subject relationship. It's sort of, like, unavoidable.
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Kayla: We should have done sociology classes.
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Chris: Well, so it actually reminds me, I know I've told you this story a million times, but one of the more interesting epiphanies I had in college was. So at the University of Pennsylvania, there is a very sort of, like, I don't know, big or well known or, I don't know. They have anthropology museum, and I took a class called empire in literature and film, and one of the things we did was visit the museum to learn about all these different, you know, artifacts from different empires and whatever. But one of the things. One of the primary, the thing that stuck with me was how the professor was telling us, like, museums are also tools of empire, which, like, I guess in the year of our Lord 2023, probably doesn't sound like crazy or surprising to anybody.
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Chris: That's sort of like old news because, like, British Museum, right? You just point to that and be like, look at those fuckers.
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Kayla: The reason why the British Museum is so big and has so much stuff from, like, Egypt and other plundered places is because the British Museum was the british empire. The british empire was a huge empire. Went and took all this stuff from the places that they quote unquote conquered and then put it in their museum.
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Chris: Right? And so that seems obvious now, but at the time, I was like, I had only ever thought of museums as.
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Kayla: Like, this belongs in a museum.
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Chris: Yeah, this belongs in a museum. And, like, erudite places of learning and study. And they could only be good academic places.
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Kayla: Right?
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Chris: I guess it's not like maybe judgment call. Maybe saying good is not the right word here because I don't know if it's necessarily means that they're. They can be good or bad, but I think there's definitely power dynamic, objectively good.
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Kayla: And then went to something more nuanced.
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Chris: Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah, of course. No, that was the trajectory for me. And it reminds me of this. Right? Because it's not just like, I don't think you have to be like a colonial military superpower that is literally plundering artifacts from their homeland for there to be a power dynamic between the subject and the researcher. And I think that was actually part of what the lesson was in that class, too. It wasn't just like, oh, yeah, we plundered all this stuff. It was like, museums are a tool. They're not just a repository for imperial loot. They are a tool for extending imperial power and bringing that. That notion of, yes, we are better than these people because. And it's not, you know, it's not explicit, but, like, if you're studying some other culture's artifacts in your museum, there's that.
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Chris: It puts you on a different level. It puts you on. And it says, like, oh, our culture is on a level higher than this other culture because we are studying it, right? And I'm not sitting, I'm not like a crazy person sitting here saying like, oh, no, we should never. Like, anthropology is a tool of colonial. No. Like, studying cultures is important and good, but it's also important, I think, to think about the power dynamic inherent in someone who is a researcher and someone who is a subject and bringing it back to our season, I felt that during our season where, like, even though weren't going with bad intentions, even though weren't going to, like, you know, steal fucking Tutankhamun's treasures from theosophical society downtown.
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Kayla: Cool.
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Chris: Which. Which would have been awesome. Totally would have stolen them. Even though weren't doing that, there was still this feeling of, like, power dynamic that felt icky in a way.
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Kayla: And definitely felt like it needed to be addressed. Like, I don't think we ever felt. I think some of the places where I felt comfortable with it were like, I didn't feel uncomfortable visiting the philosophical Research Society for the first time because that was like talking about a documentary. Like, that was a. Clearly there was not a. We were not doing a, like, we are coming to observe you. It was like went to a.
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Chris: Documentary screening, and there was also a lot of people. I think that makes a difference.
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Kayla: There was a lot of people.
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Chris: There was like 200 people there.
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Kayla: Yeah.
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Chris: And there was no participation, really, expectation from audience members. I think that also makes a difference.
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Kayla: Right. I didn't feel this when went to ecstatic dance. I didn't feel this when we talked about objectivism, largely because, like, you were from the community.
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Chris: I mean, I was the president of the Upenn Objectivist Club for that year, so.
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Kayla: So it's like, if you can't, I.
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Chris: Get to talk about it.
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Kayla: Yeah. I literally want to, like, look at what else we did. I.
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Chris: How did you feel when went to the Hare Krishna temple? Felt that for sure you felt weird there or you didn't feel weird?
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Kayla: I felt uncomfortable that it was not. That I did not have the chance to really disclose to anyone, like, hey, we're here for a podcast.
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Chris: See, I think that I felt maybe less comfortable there than I did at, say, prs with the source family, but I still felt pretty comfortable there. And I think that for that, it was, again, somewhat volume. There was a decent number of people there. But also, I think a lot of it is. Yeah. Is that participation, right. Like, when there's like seven people on a roundtable in a discussion group and you don't say, oh, yeah, by the way, I'm gonna do a podcast on this.
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Kayla: Right.
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Chris: That feels much more awkward than when you're just, like, sitting in a beautiful temple listening to beautiful singing.
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Kayla: Right. One's a church service versus, like, a small. A small group.
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Chris: Yeah. And, yeah, and I think with Ethereus, like, if we had just gone to their service versus talking personally with the folks in charge there and, like, them treating us nicely, like, if we just went to the church service and left, I don't think it would have felt nearly as weird.
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Kayla: And that's what felt. That was like, the discomfort around doing theosophy was you made it clear upfront when you reached out initially, like, hey, we're doing this for the podcast. And so you went through a lot of those kinds of hoops of saying, like, we're doing this for the podcast. Hello. Let me have a conversation with the guy running this. Let me have a conversation with the guy running that. And then when went and took the class, there wasn't really the opportunity to say, like, hey, we're the guys who are here with the podcast. We went mostly as participants, right. And that felt like a weird, like, nebulous, liminal space where I'm like, we disclosed why were here, but, like, that lady sitting over there doesn't know why I'm here.
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Chris: Right, right. And there was. It was like one of those sitcom situations, too, where it's like, you're like, okay, we'll tell them, you know, that we're with the podcast or whatever. But, like, you get there and, like, it starts, and the other guys, you know, the discussion leader is talking, and then you're like, okay, as soon as we go around and introduce ourselves, that'll be a good time. But then that never happens. And then you're like, okay, well, I guess we'll just cut in when we can. And then before you know it, the meeting's over. And you're like, shit.
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Kayla: And then I also have. For me, I have a desire to not, like, undermine my own authentic interest in these things.
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Chris: Right.
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Kayla: There is also a truth here. That is, I find these groups, yes, because of this show, but that doesn't mean my interest in them is not authentic. And, like, particularly, I felt that this season, with the things that I wasn't comfortable with, I really, personally, outside of this show, enjoyed my time at theosophical Society. I will be attending more classes. I will be reading more about this. I will be learning more about this. Same with the Hare Krishna temple. I feel like there's. I have some, like, some of the hesitation to disclose also comes from. I don't want you to think I'm just here for the show because I'm not just here for the show. I'm here because I'm interested in this and I do want to learn. And maybe this is for me. And there is some aspect of, quote unquote truth seeking.
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Kayla: So I don't want to. I don't want the other person to have the wrong judgment of me. But that feels weird.
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Chris: Yeah, I know, it feels a little bit like cake and eat it, too there. You know, like, I want to be this, but also that, like, I even felt it with the death cafe a bit when the in person one, I think I actually. Maybe I felt this a couple times this season. But there's another aspect of it, too, where it's like, oh, you do a podcast. Oh, cool. Like, and then you can kind of tell that you are. And this is like, whatever. This is fine. We have a podcast, and it's okay. But you get viewed a little bit differently. You get viewed as sort of, like, you know, the reporter with a notepad versus, like, participant.
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Chris: And then I don't know whether I'm, like, cleared for takeoff in terms of talking about the thing, because I'm not sure if people will think, well, is he talking about this because he has genuine. Something genuine to bring up or talk about or whatever? Or is this just him, like, fishing for content, you know?
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Kayla: Yeah. And that does feel like a personal problem. That feels like, excuse me.
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Chris: Jesus Christ.
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Kayla: I met with myself. I meant, like, this is not somebody else doing that to us. This is us doing it to ourselves.
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Chris: Yeah, of course. Of course.
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Kayla: And I think that's just, you know, we're not journalists, but this is probably something that journalists have to just, like, suck it up, get comfy with. And, like, you know, when we watch shows like Nathan for you or how to with John Wilson, it's like these guys go and, like, build relationships with, quote unquote subjects and then, like, hang out and have a good time and do the thing, and we see journalists.
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Chris: And exploit them for laughs.
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Kayla: I mean, yeah, that's a whole other topic. But you see journalists do this all the time, too. Like, yeah, I don't know why. I honestly think that my genuine interest in some of these things makes it feel almost more uncomfortable.
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Chris: I agree. And I think we just did a whole bonus episode on whining. Whining about how our fifi's or how I feel awkward and we just need to kind of get over it.
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Kayla: No, I think it is reasonable to talk about, hey, this season went, let's go do things in person without necessarily, like, grappling with the fact that would make some aspects of creating this content different.
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Chris: Yeah.
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Kayla: And, you know, it's like the people listening to this show are similar to us in that they are, like, interested in weird groups. And I do wonder if other people maybe sometimes have these feelings even when they're not doing a show, but if they're attending a group because they're like, oh, this might be interesting and cool and weird and maybe not necessarily something that, like, they themselves are gonna keep doing. I think that's a normal human. Like, people go and do things for a laugh. You know, people go and do things for a bit or for the story. And does that make them bad and wrong and weird? No, but it might make you feel a little uncomfortable in the moment if.
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Chris: You'Re like, it also depends.
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Kayla: The people here think, I'm doing this for serious, but I'm here for.
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Chris: Yeah, I get what you mean. Yeah. There's podcasts is one of only many reasons that you might attend something where you're there for a different reason other than purely attending the thing. And I think that can probably range from, like, pretty benign, like, oh, I just have a fascination with these topics. It's not that I want to be a theosophist. It's that I want to observe theosophy in practice. That feels totally fine, but maybe might still feel awkward to the person. And I think that there's another end of that spectrum, which is pretty rude, and I want to make fun of you later.
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Kayla: Yeah, I'm milking you as a lolcow.
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Chris: Right? Exactly right. So I think that there's a whole spectrum of that. I mean, I hope that we're closer on the less shitty side of that spectrum, but it's just something that I felt that was worth talking about because, like, the experiences of this season were very interesting in their own rights, but then the experience of the experience, I thought, deserved its own little discussion.
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Kayla: It's meta as hell, and you know.
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Chris: How much I love meta stuff.
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Kayla: You do.
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Chris: All right, you guys. Well, again, come chat about it on discord. Even though we're offline on the podcast for a few months, we will still be on the discord, posting really stupid memes and bitching about capitalism.
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Kayla: That's all I ever do.
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Chris: That's Kayla's whole life. This is Kayla, and this is Chris.
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Kayla: And this has been cult or just weird.
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Chris: Bonus season five. What the hell was happening?
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Kayla: Finale content. The end.
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