S4E15 - The Basics (Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Lattes)

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Tyler Keeling: You know, a little comfort here and there is. It's needed sometimes. And people do turn to pumpkin spice for that. Like, there's comfort in that for them. And people love that. Makes them feel good, makes them feel safe, makes them feel happy.

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Chris: Hey, Kayla.

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Kayla: Hey, Chris.

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Chris: I got you something.

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Kayla: Why are you laughing?

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Chris: I got you something.

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Kayla: What did you get me?

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Chris: Here. Here you go.

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Kayla: What is this?

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Chris: I figured it's early in the morning as you record this, so you can maybe use a pick me up.

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Kayla: Why did you get me this? Do you want me to Slurpenheid?

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Chris: Yeah, slurp. There we go. I mean, it is an audio program after all. Yes. This is the second episode in a row that I'm using a food prop on the cult or just weird set. So I'm sorry, listeners. Like, I would bring you coffee, too, if I only could. I kind of feel bad that we're just, like, eating and drinking in front of our audience.

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Kayla: You don't have enough to share with the class.

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Chris: I know you don't bring it. I would bring you a coffee if I could. Anyway, how are you doing, Kayla?

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Kayla: I mean, I currently have a pumpkin spice latte in my hot little hand, so.

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Chris: So do I.

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Kayla: So I'm doing pretty good.

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Chris: That's good. Well, for this episode, I very much wanted to do a seasonal topic. Last year, you did no nut November. November?

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Kayla: Don't bring up no nut November. It's the most embarrassing one.

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Chris: I mean, you did the episode.

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Kayla: I did.

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Chris: If you didn't want it to. It's literally public record. It's out there. Anyway, that was seasonal. You know, that comes with the fall season, our first season of our show. You did spirit Halloween in October. So this year I said to myself, self, let's do a seasonal episode. Kayla's done it a bunch. I want to do it, too. It's fall. So let's do a pumpkin spice flavored podcast. Thank God pumpkin spice is in everything else this time of year, so why not a podcast, too, right?

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: You can have pumpkin spice coffee, you can have pumpkin spice oils and scents and candles and everything else.

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Kayla: All kinds of foodstuffs.

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Chris: Concrete, probably concrete. Wait, we'll get to that.

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Kayla: What?

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Chris: Okay, so for my episode today, sources were, as always, Wikipedia, scientific american.

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Kayla: Wait, is pumpkin spice the topic? Pumpkin spice latte?

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Chris: Yeah, the PSL fandom is the topic for today.

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Kayla: Oh, God, yes. Well, how cozy.

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Chris: I know. It also kind of goes with, like, theme of the season, too, right? It's like, ooh, kind of cozy and nice. I also canvassed a couple of my friends who like pumpkin spice. In particular one guy, he's like, known for it to the point where, like, people ask him about it every fall.

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Kayla: They're like, wait, you have a pumpkin spice latte friend?

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Chris: Yeah, it's Austin.

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Kayla: Really?

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Chris: He's like, obsessed.

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Kayla: Oh, my God.

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Chris: Yeah, I'll probably leave that in. Cause I mentioned his name later.

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Kayla: I love a pumpkin spice latte.

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Chris: I do too. And I actually haven't won. I haven't had one in a really long time. And I forgot how good they were.

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Kayla: They're delicious.

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Chris: Like, drinking this now, I'm like, oh, shit.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: I also read some vox, some Buzzfeed, like three or four vice articles, Forbes Business Insider, the goodtrade.com, historychannel.com, comma, foodandwine.com, comma, bhg.com, comma, CB's news Mashable and history in the making.

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Kayla: It's an expansive topic, I know.

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Chris: And actually, I finally kind of did primary research, which I think is maybe a first.

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Kayla: Oh, my goodness. It's definitely not a first, actually.

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Chris: So did you. We're doing it right now by drinking these here. Psls. That's actually what I'm referencing. Kayla, can you describe for our listeners who are unfortunately can't be in here in the studio with us, the experience of drinking a pumpkin spice latte? The aromas, the taste, the feelings?

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Kayla: Well, first of all, the real answer to that is no. I think that the experience of pumpkin spice latte is kind of ephemeral and indescribable. It must be experienced.

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Chris: Wow. We have a fan here. So you're part of the cult then?

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Kayla: I just think it's just, it's a flavor that's unlike other flavors. I can't go, oh, it tastes like caramel. Like, give me a cinnamon dolce latte. I can say, oh, it tastes like caramel. E. Pumpkin spice latte. Okay, so a pumpkin sliced latte first and foremost. Got an orangey tint. You gotta love it. Got an orangey tint. I like to get em warm. You can get em iced, you can get em frappuccinoed however you want.

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Chris: We'll get to that.

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Kayla: I like to get a little warm one because it's fall. It helps you feel fally. And so it's like, ooh, nice and cozy.

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Chris: Yeah, I saw a tweet that was like, I don't fucking care how hot it is outside. I'm getting my hot pumpkin spice.

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Kayla: Yes. Makes you feel something. And so the flavor of a pumpkin spice latte. I don't want to step on your toes, but contrary to some people's belief, it's not the flavor of pumpkin.

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Chris: Oh, well, we'll get to that too.

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Kayla: It is the, at least the flavor that I'm chasing is the flavor specifically of pumpkin spice. So that is going to evoke something like the flavor of a pumpkin pie. What are the flavoring agents that go into a pumpkin pie? So you're going to hit cinnamon? You're going to hit. That's definitely the big one, I think is cinnamon. It's sweet. And maybe there's probably like clove in there. There's probably.

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Chris: Wait, this is like a Somalia, like ESL sommelier.

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Kayla: I just don't know what the flavors are.

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Chris: This is a 1973 vintage pumpkin from the south of France.

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Kayla: There's probably allspice. One time I did make my own pumpkin spice hot chocolate mix.

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Chris: Wow, that is so basic.

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Kayla: Yeah, it was great. So once upon a time I did.

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Chris: Yeah, basic is a compliment here in cult of just weird.

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Kayla: I will take it such. I did once upon a time know the individual flavor components. That information has long since left my brain. But if you want to sit down and drink a pumpkin spice latte, you're in for a smooth, warm, creamy, spicy experience that is just. Evokes fall, evokes Halloween, evokes Thanksgiving, evokes the leaves falling off the trees, evokes Jack o lanterns and girls in big scarves, even though it's only 71 outside and flannel.

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Chris: Yeah, I think you. That's the episode. The end. Like, you. Good. That's great foreshadowing. And actually the part about the spices is foreshadowing for right now because I do want to talk about pumpkin spices, actually, just the spices associated with pumpkin pie filling, which we'll get more to the pumpkin pie bit. But it doesn't actually involve pumpkin flavoring as you mentioned.

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Kayla: Then why is it orange?

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Chris: Well, I think the orange is like artificial coloring components, but I actually just fibbed with you. Let me get to that in 1 second.

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Kayla: Okay.

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Chris: I just want to say that there's a whole pumpkin spice backlash and they really key on this fact a lot. Like, oh, it's not even pumpkin flavored. Yeah, it's not supposed to be pumpkin flavor.

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Kayla: It's not pumpkin flavored spice.

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Chris: It's supposed to be pumpkin spice.

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Kayla: I have to really like, I will say this up front. I'm gonna be doing a lot of deep breathing and, like, coping in this episode because I have a lot of rage towards the backlash against pumpkin spice.

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Chris: Oh, we'll get to that too, baby.

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Kayla: And I just don't want to.

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Chris: You can have some catharsis here on the show.

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Kayla: I just. I don't want to be screaming into the ears.

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Chris: No, you do want to be screaming. That's what they're here for. That's why we get paid the big bucks.

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Kayla: I don't want to damage any eardrums.

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Chris: So the part I said where I was fibbing, actually, as of 2015, at least the OG Starbucks PSL does contain natural pumpkin flavoring.

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Kayla: Ooh.

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Chris: So take that, haters.

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Kayla: Oh, my God. So it's healthy for you, too.

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Chris: That's right. That's right.

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Kayla: It's got fiber. It's got phytonutrients.

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Chris: I don't know about fiber, but it definitely has natural pumpkin flavoring now. But typically, pumpkin spice actually, like you said, just refers to the spice, or rather, the spice es the spices. Now, there are a bunch of different blends of this stuff, actually, depending on where you look. There are as many blends of pumpkin spice as cooks who make it. But there are some core ingredients. Nutmeg is the first and definitely foremost.

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Kayla: That's what I was forgetting.

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Chris: I've seen a lot of pumpkin spice blends by now, but I have yet to see one that doesn't include nutmeg. It's, like, the only one that is in every single recipe that I see. Then there's cinnamon. I've only seen, like, one or two blends that don't include cinnamon, so that's why it's second. Next up is allspice, and I'm ranking that third on the pumpkin spices. Official culture. Just weird stack rank, because it's part of the blend that you can buy at your grocery store, so that's why I'm putting it third. But it's not in every blend. Many blends will also use cloves, ginger, mace, and even some other things pop in there now and again. And, like, the rare recipe for it.

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Chris: Now, I feel like I make this statement on every single episode of the show at this point, but the thing, this pumpkin spice has actually been around for a while. The earliest recipe we know of for pumpkin pie.

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Kayla: You said that really funny.

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Chris: Well, I'm trying to pronounce it correctly. Pumpkin.

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Kayla: It's pumpkin.

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Chris: Pumpkin.

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Kayla: I thought you were making a mistake.

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Chris: I mean, that makes sense. Sounds weird. No, it's because it's spelled p o m p k I n in this recipe.

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Kayla: Gotcha.

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Chris: I guess that's like how the early colonists used to spell pumpkin.

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Kayla: Those guys were dummies.

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Chris: Pumpkin? Yeah, doofuses. It comes from Amelia Simmons 1796. Cookbook, American Cookery. The first cookbook written by an american to be published in the United States.

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Kayla: And it was a woman.

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Chris: And it was a woman.

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Kayla: God. But it was a woman who probably killed a lot of natives. She girl bossed.

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Chris: She girl bossed her way through all of the smallpox deaths. If you're curious, her particular recipe uses ginger.

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Kayla: Genocide is not funny.

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Chris: Mace, were just laughing. Oh, no. Okay. It's not funny.

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Kayla: I just want to clarify.

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Chris: It's okay to make fun of your own heritage for the horrible crimes that they did in the past? I think so. Her particular recipe uses ginger, mace, and nutmeg. So that's, like, one of the few recipes I saw, actually, that didn't include cinnamon, but it still has nutmeg.

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Kayla: Interesting. I wonder if cinnamon was not as widely used at the time or not widely gettable or something.

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Chris: It's tough to say because, again, there's sort of, like, core ingredients, and then other things sort of come in and out. So if you want to date pumpkin spice, it kind of depends on which version of it you want.

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Kayla: But I want the hottest $17 if I want to date it.

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Chris: No, date. As in. As in the year. Kayla.

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Tyler Keeling: God.

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Chris: Go to horny jail. All right, 1796. So that's an acceptable answer to, like, how old pumpkin spices? Another acceptable answer might be to say the 1930s, because that's when McCormick and company released the first pumpkin pie spice blend to american grocery store shelves. So this is the blend that I mentioned before that uses allspice instead of cloves. Okay, so that's why I ranked Allspice third instead of cloves earlier, even though, like, there are a lot of recipes that use cloves instead of allspice. So, anyway, I guess if you wanted to get, like, really liberal with your definition of pumpkin spice, and you could just say, like, it's really mainly about the nutmeg, you could actually date it back 3500 ish years.

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Kayla: I'm sorry.

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Chris: Which is the first recorded usage of nutmeg indonesia, which is where a lot of these spices originally come from. For a long time, in fact, Indonesia was the only source that the globe had for nutmeg, among other spices. And, in fact, spices that we, like casually just, like, go pick up at the grocery store today used to be ultra rare, which is why you might remember hearing about a phrase called, like, the spice trade. Like, if you've ever heard the spice trade. The reason that we still have that phrase is because how important spice was to the global economy back in the day. At its all time price, zenith. At its highest point, nutmeg wasn't worth its weight in gold. It was worth more than its weight in gold.

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Chris: So, like, at its highest point, you'd better off financially if your bedroom safe was full of nutmeg instead of gold.

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Kayla: And you could have a little snack.

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Chris: Yeah, but you wouldn't want to eat it because that's your life saving. You're retiring on your nutmeg. And this was all because of its rarity, right? Like, it was only grown indonesia, which then its rarity, of course, made it a luxury item, which made it desirable to rich people, which only increased its value even more. And this is also, by the way, what prompted Christopher Columbus's expedition was to find a better way to access the spice trade on that Indonesia side of the world. By the time spices reached Europe, they'd typically pass through many hands on an overland route from Asia, which made the rare commodity only more expensive. So Columbus figured if he could find a route over the ocean rather than the land, well, then you could skip all those middlemen from Spain to Indonesia, and you'd make a killing.

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Chris: Now, this isn't an episode about colonization. It kind of is a little bit, but we'll get to that.

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Kayla: It's about spices then.

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Chris: But it's about spices, which means it's, like, implicitly about colonization.

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Kayla: I mean, this is why it's so offensive to not season your food, right?

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Chris: Honestly, you better fucking season your food because people died for it, literally. So I'll stop here about, like, the Columbus stuff. But, yeah, you can blame the spice trade for spurring the age of exploration for all of its good and ill. Okay, so nutmeg is very old, probably by itself. We're not gonna count that, though, as pumpkin spice. The first pumpkin pie recipe is 1796, and the first pumpkin pie spice blend hits the stores in America in the 1930s. But the current pumpkin spice craze that we're all living in, where this time of year, it gets into basically everything like a glitter bomb. Well, you can thank Starbucks and a guy named Peter Dukes for that.

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Kayla: Oh, wow, we're doing Starbucks again because.

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Chris: In 2003, the beloved and or hated PSL was born. By the way, this guy's title, Peter Dukes at Starbucks at this time was director of Espresso. That was his title.

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Kayla: You know what?

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Chris: How cool is that title?

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Kayla: I got a lot of hate for the current tech bro ilk of, like, Jaws titles.

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Chris: Yeah, like director of, like, human friends or whatever.

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Kayla: Director of cool time. Director of vibes.

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Chris: That's chief vibe officer.

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Kayla: Chief vibe officer. But what is his. Director of espresso.

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Chris: Director of espresso.

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Kayla: I'm into that one.

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Chris: Chief espresso. That would have been good, too.

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Kayla: Espresso.

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Chris: Chief espressos are. That's what I would have demanded. Anyway, so in 2003, actually, it was probably 2002. Cause this is, I'm talking about the development now of pumpkin spice. Basically. Starbucks was like, hey, we have peppermint mochas. They're doing really well. That's good. Can we do something for fall? And so that was sort of the mission put to this Mister Dukes. So he got his team of product researchers. What, the PSL?

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Yeah. The object lesson's over.

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Kayla: Okay, good.

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Chris: So he got his team together and basically developed, like, they went through this whole design process where they developed, like, a bunch of different flavors. Like, I think he said it was like hundreds, hundreds of different flavors to try for this fall thing.

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Kayla: So this was all just trying to find a single fall flavor trying to.

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Chris: Find a single fall flavor that could be as good as the peppermint mocha was for Christmas. They could do for fall.

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Kayla: I think that they outdid themselves.

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Chris: They absolutely did. But it might not have. It was very close to not actually being pumpkin spice, because as they narrowed this down and they went to. So they do, like, a lot of focus groups with this stuff. So they'll get, like, you know, consumers come in and they'll, like, you know, rank them and comment on them. Like, I like this one the best because blah, blah. And basically what they found is they narrowed it down to, like, I think, four or five. Don't quote me on that. But they narrowed it down to some, like, handful of flavors from this. And most of the people, when they ranked it, they would say, oh, it's this chocolate flavor, this caramel flavor. They rank the best.

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Chris: And the pumpkin, there was an untitled pumpkin flavor, and that didn't rank super high on the desirability scale, by the way. There was also an orangey flavor that they were gonna try.

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Kayla: I'm out.

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Chris: Yeah, I know. The alt universe where we're all drinking orange spice lattes for fall is really weird. And in fact, we're probably not even drinking them because it probably failed in, like, the first year.

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Kayla: I like that scent. Like, I like to, you know, some oranges cooking on the stove with some other spices. Great scent. I don't want to drink it?

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Chris: Yeah. And it's just. It doesn't have the same. And maybe this is just, like, I'm biased from, like, the decades of PSL in my brain.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: But I also just don't feel like it has the same. Doesn't hit you the same way.

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Kayla: Not as warm and cozy.

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Chris: Anyway. What it did score high on, though, what the untitled pumpkin flavor scored high on was uniqueness. So it scored high on this. Like, it was very distinct. In fact, it was very similar to what you said at the top of the episode when I said, how does this taste and smell? Like? You said, it's like, I don't know, it's kind of its own thing.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: That's literally what they found in this consumer research was that people had a hard time associating. It just had this very sort of distinct, unique thing. And they figured, you know what? That's maybe a better thing to go with than just taste sugary. Good, because, like, they already have that.

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Kayla: Right. They already have chocolate and vanilla and caramel and Java chip. Try something new.

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Chris: Yeah. So they renamed untitled Pumpkin blend into pumpkin spice latte, and the rest was history.

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Kayla: And they have billions of dollars.

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Chris: Yeah. Well, yeah, it was an immediate hit.

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Kayla: So instead of having nutmeg in your safe now you just want pumpkin spice latte in your safe, right?

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Chris: Yeah. Just fill it with sugary coffee and you'll be able to retire on that. But anyway, people went crazy for it. And the rough figure that you get if you go looking is that Starbucks has now, by now, sold some 600 million of the things, which PSL goes for about $6, let's call it five, for easy mathematic. So that's a $3 billion invention at this point.

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Kayla: God, I never do anything good.

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Chris: It has become tremendously popular these days. The PSL. The drink itself has its own Twitter account. It's like the beverage has a Twitter account at the real PSL. And obviously, it has its own Instagram. It has a tumblr, it has its own merchandise, both sanctioned and not. It probably has other accounts, too. I was not able to ascertainous whether there's an official PSL TikTok account, but I would absolutely wager that there is. And actually, social media was, like, a big reason why PSL went as commercially viral as it did. Right. Because there were a lot of, like. It just. It peaked at sort of the same time that Instagram was peaking like that. Like, peak PSL was like, 2012 to 2016 ish.

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Kayla: Okay.

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Chris: And that's when that was also, like, peak Instagram. That was also peak, like, look at me with my PSL and my cozy fall clothes with the, you know, changing leaves in the background. And so that was, like, part of what. What drove the demand for this thing. And the $3 billion figure, by the way, that actually vastly undersells the value of pumpkin spice, because that's just Starbucks PSLs. Pumpkin spice is an entire industry, an entire way of life.

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Kayla: Now, don't call it a way of life.

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Chris: For some people it is. For my friend Austin, it is. And the total market for pumpkin spice related products is much bigger. The figure you get for that is just between five and $600 million per year.

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Kayla: That's a lot of dollars per year.

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Chris: That's big business. So once the rest of capitalism took notice of the runaway success of PSL, basically everything else followed. And again, these days, you can find pumpkin spice dog food, pumpkin spice deodorant. Actually, Kayla, we are so far into pumpkin spice world in the narrative surrounding it that there are multiple Buzzfeed style listicles that you can find conveniently online that spell out some of the more interesting pumpkin spice products. So what we're gonna do right now is I'm gonna quick hit read for you this actual Buzzfeed article from 2016 entitled 24 pictures that prove this whole pumpkin spice thing has gone way too far. Make it stop.

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Kayla: Okay. I will say, as much as a pumpkin spice latte defender that I am, I do think, personally, I don't need pumpkin spice products.

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Chris: Well, then you don't have to buy it.

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Kayla: I'm not saying other people shouldn't be able to buy it. I'm just saying, personally, I don't need anything more than the latte. But I am eager to hear this. Listen.

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Chris: Yeah. So the idea is I'm gonna tell you things real quick, and you're gonna give me your impression on whether it is a good or an evil application of pumpkin spice.

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Kayla: I can do that.

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Chris: Ready?

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Kayla: Yes.

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Chris: All right, first one we got here is pumpkin spice pork sausage.

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Kayla: Evil. Actually, no, that's probably good.

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Chris: That's an easy. No, that's evil.

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Kayla: Evil.

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Chris: That's horrible. Pumpkin spice cheerios.

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Kayla: Good.

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Chris: That seems like a natural extension of pumpkin spice, right? Pumpkin spice salsa from sprouts. Salsa. Salsa. No, I know.

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Kayla: It's making me think of, like, mango salsa, but no, fine. You're not. I thought I was answering, but you're.

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Chris: No, yeah, but there's right answers.

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Kayla: Evil.

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Chris: All right, pumpkin spice bagels.

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Kayla: Good.

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Chris: Yeah, that's fine. Pumpkins. What is this? Pumpkin spice bath and body works. Oh, this is hand gel. Antibacterial hand gel.

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Kayla: Good.

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Chris: Yeah. Okay. I think I agree with her. Harvest pumpkin tortilla chips.

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Kayla: Okay. Harvest pumpkin. Does that mean it's pumpkin spice, or does it just mean it is a pumpkin tortilla chip?

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Chris: That seems to be what this particular company is trying to brand their chips as.

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Kayla: It's a pumpkin spice tortilla chip.

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Chris: Basically bad.

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Kayla: Unless you're eating.

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Chris: That's the thing, though, is that it's.

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Kayla: Like, if you pair it with the salsa, then it's good.

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Chris: Yeah, maybe. Actually. Maybe that's what makes the salsa. Okay. But it's not saying, like, pumpkin spice tortilla chip. It's like trying to market it as, like, its own sort of thing.

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Kayla: That's what I'm saying. If it's just, like, got pumpkin in it, pumpkin is just a starch.

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Chris: Okay. Pumpkin spice fishing lure.

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Kayla: No comment. No opinion.

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Chris: Na. Pumpkin spice butter.

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Kayla: Actually, no. Good. Clearly good.

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Chris: Yeah. I mean, the fish deserves to have pumpkin spice.

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Kayla: Clearly the best application.

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Chris: They deserve to have that nice, cozy feeling right before that fish hook jams into their mouth. Fishing is, yeah, butter, good. But just, like, why, though?

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Kayla: Because you can put it on a sponge.

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Chris: You could just buy regular butter and then add your own butter.

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Kayla: You can, but you could also buy the butter and then have an extra butter for, like, when you want a sweet toast, you want a sweet bagel, you want a. Just little.

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Chris: I gotta say, though, I just. You know what it is? I think it's just my bias against, like, single use appliances in the kitchen. I see that as, like, a single use appliance.

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Kayla: It's not a single use appliance. It is a seasonal product. You buy it one time.

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Chris: All right, what about pumpkin spice smoked ham?

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Kayla: You know, you think? I would say bad, but I think I'm gonna say good.

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Chris: Okay. Oreos, good. That's definitely good. Pumpkin spiced salmon, bad.

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Kayla: Very bad. Not good.

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Chris: Fresh goat cheese. Pumpkin spice, good.

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Kayla: That sounds delicious, actually.

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Chris: That sounds like that has potential. Hummus. Pumpkin spice, bad. I'm personally not feeling it, but I would probably need somebody, like, Middle Eastern to weigh in on that.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: All right, what about pumpkin spice gum?

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Kayla: I thought you said gun, and I was like, gun. Well, we're probably.

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Chris: They almost certainly have that good dog treats.

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Kayla: Badlandhouse. Actually, pumpkin is good for doggies. I don't know about pumpkin spice. I'm gonna say bad.

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Chris: Okay. Litter. Cat litter.

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Kayla: Absolutely not.

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Chris: What? See, that sounded like, to me, a decent.

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Kayla: So you want to mix together the alluring aromas of ammonia, heavy cat piss and nutmeg and allspice.

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Chris: Don't forget cat poop. And that sold me against it. You're right. Okay. I just figured, like, maybe instead of having, like, the littery smell, it would, like, make the apartment smell like pumpkin spice. But in that case, I'm probably better off just getting a candle.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: All right. Pringles, bad. Pretzels, good. Twinkies, good. Pop rocks, good. Water.

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Kayla: I don't know how to feel.

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Chris: Pasta sauce, good. Pop tarts, good. I think pop tarts is, like, kind of an obvious one.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: What did you say? Good to pasta sauce, you weirdo.

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Kayla: Yeah, you moved right past that one.

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Chris: Fuck out of here. This is canceled. You are canceled. Special k, that's whatever.

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Kayla: I don't want talk about special k. One day we'll do special k on the show.

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Chris: We're actually the end of the Buzzfeed list. But there are. I also saw other lists where. And this is where, like I was saying earlier about concrete. I'm pretty sure it's a joke, but it's like, you can see, like, you know, how people do, like, funny marquees.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: There's, like, some construction company that was, like, come in for our pumpkin spice concrete. And there was also, like, a tire store that did that. It was like, we have pumpkin spice rubber for the fall.

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Kayla: That's really good. I appreciate that.

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Chris: I know I was a super pro. Okay. All right. So that's just to give you an idea of the depth and breadth. And we didn't even get into, like, there's, like, lube. I mean, there's everything.

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Kayla: Lube, pumpkin vice, massage oil, pumpkin spice lip balm, pumpkin spice shampoo, pumpkin spice, whatever.

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Chris: If you can name a product, it's pumpkin. And now there's pumpkin spice podcasts as of today.

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Kayla: Here we go.

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Chris: So. All right. But it's not all sunshine and roses.

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Kayla: Oh, no.

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Chris: Or I guess to stay on theme here, I should say it's not all overcast and pumpkiny, because where there's a fandom, you can be sure they'll also find a backlash. And boy, psls. Either love it or you hate it.

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Kayla: I don't want to talk about the people who hate it.

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Chris: There's some real haters out there. We'll talk a little bit more about maybe, like, why this is. But here's a taste of the vitriol from a vice article entitled succinctly Fuck Pumpkin Spice quote. And this is from, like, a few years back. So, like, I think we're already on the, like, backlash to the backlash, and probably the backlash to the backlash. But anyway, this is phase one. Backlash to pumpkin spice, quote. And tonight, when you get home from your excruciatingly thankless job of creating meaningless spreadsheets and sink into a warm pumpkin spice bubble bath, you can drink pumpkin spice liqueurs straight from the bottle, choking down sickeningly sweet gulps until the bottle becomes lighter and lighter as the final drops of it burn the back of your throat. You can think about how all of this pumpkin spice is really lifting your mood, right?

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Chris: Really getting you back on track after those months of apathy and loneliness, the ignored late night voicemails to your ex fiance, the frustrating inability to get over the death of your foster cat. It's amazing how all these different companies just knew that you needed a little extra boost in your day. Fuck pumpkin spice. End quote.

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Kayla: That.

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Chris: That was just.

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Kayla: That sounded like a very specific experience.

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Chris: Very harsh, very targeted.

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Kayla: That wasn't like. That is not an experience I can relate to in any way.

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Chris: I know.

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Kayla: Do you think that maybe this writer is maybe extrapolating from their own personal experience a little bit too much?

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Chris: Yeah, like, please show me on the doll where psl touched you, my dude.

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Kayla: I also just like, why do you care so much about what other people are doing?

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Chris: I don't know.

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Kayla: If you don't like it, don't eat it.

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Chris: Yeah, and the whole article is kind of like that. And this is.

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Kayla: And also, like, how dare you? How dare you invoke the meaninglessness of somebody else's job managing data when your day job is apparently writing this drivel?

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Chris: It struck me as very much, like, kind of clickbaity.

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Kayla: This is. Your job is writing for vice. Fuck pumpkin spice lattes, and talking about people who are mourning the deaths of their foster cats. Like, bro, if we want to talk about sad lives, I have one for you.

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Chris: I very much got the impression of reading this because this is from back, like, in 2016.

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Kayla: Ishbait.

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Chris: No, no, I know. I know not. I'm going out on a limb and saying that it was. This is from. Yeah, like, eight? Is she six or eight years ago?

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Kayla: That's just so.

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Chris: And the impression that I got was this was sort of, like, before we had really, as a society, like, grappled with the idea that, like, rage drives clicks. And so were still in the phase of, like, rage bait as, like, you know, face value.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: So that's kind of what this felt like. It was just like, this is just somebody writing a rage bait article, as you do in 2016. Like, that's your job in 2016, is to write rage bait. Now we're sort of like, oh, fuck that. It's lost traction a bit. A little bit. But that's sort of how it sounded. Anyway. The whole thing was just very, like, pumpkin spice. It's just consumerist, blah, blah, which. That's kind of theme. We'll get back to that a little bit.

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Kayla: But, like, the whole idea of, like, you just like it because they're advertising it to you so hard.

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Chris: Yeah. The backlash really has, like, its fundamental, the fundamental pillars of the backlash really revolve behind sort of, like, a misogynistic, like, you know, things that girls like are bad things that boys like are fine, right. And also revolves around the sort of, like, the consumer. And, in fact, I would say that the second one is probably, in my mind is bigger because it's like, I don't know. I've seen articles. I'll get to this, too. But, like, you know, it's about the decline of american, like, society because it's, you know, again, you have this, like, consumerist, decadence type thing associated with it.

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Kayla: I would say that is inextricably intertwined with the misogyny. And granted, I haven't done the research that you have, but from my layperson's experience, those two are so intertwined that I don't know if you can say one is bigger than the other.

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Chris: Sure. Yeah, they're definitely related.

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Kayla: You can take the, oh, it's the decline of western society because of consumerism tack. But if this is what you're latching onto, that's because of misogyny, because there's a million other things we can talk about that indicate the consumerist decline, the fall of Rome, but we're picking this one that is highly associated with female consumerism.

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Chris: Yeah. I also got a big impression, I want to say, from this article as well, of, like, and this is, like, where, you know, me thinking about culture, just weird while doing this research comes into play. But, like, I got a whiff of, oh, you're brainwashed. Like, you know, like, you don't actually like pumpkin spice. You're just brainwashed by, you know, the pumpkin spice industrial complex. To think that this, you know, consumerist blah, blah thing is something that you like when actually you're just, it's. You don't even really like it. Like, there's this, like, taking of agency the same way that people do with cults.

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Kayla: Yeah, it's so weird because it's like, have you tasted it? It's sugar.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Yeah, it's sweet. Well, one of the other people oftentimes like things that are sweet and sugary and have, you know, entire empires were built and raised for spice. This thing is full of spice. Come on, my guy.

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Chris: Yeah. One of the other articles I read was titled Pumpkin Spice latte. Whatever happened to simple drinks like my triple foam half calf chocolate? So anyway, I got that sort of, like, interesting culty vibe, culty smell coming off of this. Well, actually, like the. More like the anti cult stuff that seemed. That is itself cult. Right. Where it's like nobody has any agency if it's something that I disagree with.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: And the. There's actually like a vice response article to this article that's basically like, fuck you, I like pumpkin spice. Like, that actually does come up. It's like, yeah, no, I'm not just a mindless, like, consumer automaton. Like, I do actually have some choices in my life.

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Kayla: I bet you can draw a direct pipeline from the anti pumpkin spice hate movement to the current movement of calling people real life people that you don't agree with out in the world. NPC's.

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Chris: Mmm.

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Kayla: There probably, there is similarities there. There is a bedrock laid for this movement of, like, I'm gonna call you an NPC because you only believe the woke thoughts that are being sold to you by the mainstream media. Twitter, blue hairs.

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Chris: Right? Anybody.

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Kayla: You're an NPC. You're not a real person.

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Chris: Doesn't have a real brain.

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Kayla: You're brainwashed.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I also, among the backlash article I read was this is another Mashable article about how pumpkin spice represents. Actually, I mentioned this before, the decline of the american empire because, you know, the whole, like, we have become frivolous and decadent and pumpkin spice is the canary and that decadence coal mine thing.

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Kayla: Huh. I'm sure pumpkin spice. Not, you know, the fact that, like, rich people have yachts that are so big that they can.

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Chris: But it's more representative, though.

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Kayla: Not even the fact that, like, Jeff Bezos is flying off into space. It's the $5 pumpkin spice latte a white girl gets once a goddamn year.

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Chris: Maybe it's more about the symbolism.

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Kayla: I think a yacht is a better symbol.

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Chris: I think this article, I couldn't quite tell, but I think it was at least half tongue in cheek. Maybe I might be giving too much credit.

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Kayla: It's hard to tell.

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Chris: But on the other hand, it was written by a british person so they.

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Kayla: Then I'm out.

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Chris: Do know a thing or two about collapse of empire. So maybe we should listen. I don't know. So pumpkin spice is a $600 million a year industry.

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Kayla: I can't believe I'm defending pumpkin spice.

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Chris: I know this is a big business. In defense of, right, were attacking Starbucks, and now we're defending them. We're all over the place. Big industry inspires rabid fans and equally rabid backlash. So what's going on here? What is the power behind the pumpkin?

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Kayla: Tell me.

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Chris: First of all, let's talk about pumpkin itself. The squash, like the fruit thingy, how did it find itself to our Thanksgiving dinner table? But, like, not much else, really. That story, like the pumpkin itself, is very american. You see, the early colonists here, the early north american european settlements, were poor agrarian communities. They didn't have the resources to feed themselves like proper Europeans with expensive grains and meats, but a really cheap crop that already existed over here in North America. Cheap because of, like, how prolific it grows compared to how much you put into it effort wise, was the pumpkin. As you can probably guess, indigenous people have been utilizing pumpkin already for centuries. They typically would have been using it in things like soups and savory dishes, not pies. And this was actually true for the colonists as well. More like a staples.

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Chris: Like in. Again, like a savory staple, far from a holiday treat, and again, mostly for survival. But those pesky Europeans and their influence, and to be honest, also like the elites over here, once we started having enough population and wealth and infrastructure to support an elite crust of society, they kind of looked down upon the humble pumpkin precisely because of its cheapness.

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Kayla: Always happens.

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Chris: Pumpkins were for the poor, as you see, those backward, weirdo poor farmers in America eat this north american food for the. For the poors. So as Americans grew wealthier over the decades and into the 18 hundreds, pumpkin was something that sort of dropped off the menu more and more until basically nobody's eating it anymore because of this association.

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Kayla: No, you're talking about, like, nobody in, like, western european culture.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Okay. Was it still utilized, like, by the indigenous people at the time?

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Chris: Yeah, I'm talking about, like, colonists american culture. Yeah. So, yeah, so Americans stopped eating it until. Yep, you probably guessed it. Fetishization of poor rural lifestyle.

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Kayla: I told you, it always comes back around.

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Chris: I told you the story was very american. At some point, we urbanized just enough, and the farmer lifestyle was far enough in the rearview mirror of a large enough population of people that instead of sneering at poor farmers, they started glamorizing and fetishizing them like an early, sort of like cottagecore, derelict kind of thing. And the pumpkin then made a bit of a comeback, but this time not as a food, rather as a symbol, as iconography associated with harvest and as that. It stuck. So today, that's why we generally don't eat pumpkin. But we do have strong feelings about pumpkins and the fall. And when we finally do eat it is part of the ritual holiday celebrating the harvest, Thanksgiving.

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Chris: Now, the other big thing here is that we do have like deep, sort of like cultural memories of the smell of spices signifying the coming of autumn. And it's not just because of pumpkin pies either. Before we had refrigeration, fall is when all of the harvest from the year's crops would have been turned into something. It would have needed to have been turned into something that would keep over the winter. So, you know, you don't, like, die of starvation.

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Kayla: This is like jams and canning and stuff like that.

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Chris: Yeah, it's exactly that. Curing and cooking for overwinter means spices. So the aroma of spice in the house has actually signaled the coming of fall for a long time. And all of this, I'm telling you, comes back to one thing. Pumpkin spice isn't really about the taste of pumpkin spice. It's about the way it makes you feel. And I think that comports with how it was developed, too. We talked about this, right? It wasn't a, the tastiest or chocolatiest of drinks, but it was allegedly the most unique, which neatly translates into this thing makes people feel a certain way. And that is corroborated by the folks I talked to about PSL. My friend Austin, I mentioned a couple times, he said this exact thing, the taste is good, but it's more about that cozy feeling and the promise of autumn.

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Chris: Pro PSL vice articles that I mentioned also echo this sentiment. One article even tells that this is something that we've done a science on.

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Kayla: Actually, we did a science on it.

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Chris: We did a science on this quote. Recent research from Johns Hopkins University found that pumpkin spices popularity lies in its smell, which is the strongest sense to trigger powerful memories. Catalina Maria Velez Argumento. Apologies if I butcher that name. A food engineer and researcher at the Cornell Food and brand lab. So I don't know if you knew this, but Cornell is like a big hospitality school. They're like the number one hospitality. I did not know that attributes the drink's success to two overarching factors. Seasonality and nostalgia. The benefit of a seasonal offering is that you don't get the customer tired of the same product, but instead they're willing to have it within the next year, she told Buzzfeed. And if you're able to evoke nostalgia, that product could be on the market forever. End quote. See, Kayla, they're selling an experience, not a product.

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Chris: And can you even put a price tag on that, really?

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Kayla: I mean, they have.

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Chris: Yes, I can, actually. $600 million a year. Precisely. Hey, Kayla.

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Kayla: Hey, Chris.

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Chris: I have an idea. We're sitting here talking about pumpkin spice and how the origin of the current craze goes back to the Starbucks PSL. We're sitting here drinking Starbucks PSLs as part of that object lesson. Do you know any friends of the show we could talk to about this that might be, like, experts on Starbucks products?

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Kayla: I think that we had a couple people on to talk about this exact company.

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Chris: That's right. I figured, hey, like, if I'm talking about pumpkin spice, we just had Tyler and Josie on to talk about Starbucks workers United, and I'm doing something on pumpkin spice. How could I not reach out to them? So I did. Josie gave me some written responses, and I actually talked to Tyler for an interview. So here's what he had to say about his experiences with PSL fandom. You've been on the show recently, so maybe people know who you are, but if you want to maybe just reintroduce yourself. I feel like we just had you on, like, it was like a month ago.

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Tyler Keeling: It was pretty recent. Yeah. And it was a. It was a really good time. I'm Tyler. I'm with Starbucks workers United. I'm from the Lakewood store, and I'm one of the lead organizers in California.

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Chris: Great. And you're also a friend of the show. I mean, that's the main draw at this point.

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Tyler Keeling: So I'll come back as much as you guys want me to.

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Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I had a. I felt like I had a really good reason this time is because this episode I'm talking about the quote, unquote, the cult of pumpkin spice latte. And I figured you being Starbucks partner might have something to say on this. You'd be a good resource. So I guess let's brass tax it. I mean, is it a cult or is it just weird?

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Tyler Keeling: I feel like it shreds the line of cold, but it might just be weird. And I'm having a hard time parsing my feelings on this one because, like. Like, we very much see a spike in business the moment pumpkin spice is introduced, and people go, like, ballistic over it. Like, it is. It is such a draw. I will see customers who only come in during pumpkin season and, like, yeah, and, like, to an extent, like, it is, like a personality trait for some people. You know, like, the fall weather aesthetic. Like, it is very much, like a thing for people. And pumpkin spice lattes fit right into that. So, like, is it a cult? Maybe? It might be. I'm not sure. But it definitely is, like, a cultural, like, touchstone for people who are obsessed with this aesthetic. And, like, people.

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Tyler Keeling: People count down the days I like for months in advance. We'll have people come in and be like, when is it out? And I'm like, oh, my God.

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Chris: I, I want touch on something you said there, because I feel like that might help us explain. It is like, do you think that it's more about the flavor, or do you think it's more about the ritual that, like, tells us that fall is coming? Right? Like, is it. Is it more like, oh, I really like cinnamon and nutmeg? Or is it more like, oh, I like fall, and this makes me feel like fall?

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Tyler Keeling: I would, honest to God, say the latter, because people do really like the flavor, don't get me wrong. But, like, there's also a lot of just, like, people who are like, it's okay, but I just like it. And I'm like, you know what? That's fair. But the only time I think people genuinely do, like, obsess over the flavor is with that newer. The pumpkin cream cold foam that we have that one. People actually are, like, obsessed with the flavor of.

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Chris: Josie brought that up too, so that must be a pretty big deal.

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Tyler Keeling: Oh, my God. People go just. People go bananas. People go, like, crazy over it. You'll have, like, these big old macho dudes who, like, only drink black coffee, get puppy cream cold foam, and I'm like, I respect it.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah, that sounds like me, actually. I feel like that's because I usually only drink black coffee, but that sounds like something I would definitely want to. I will go to Starbucks occasionally and get a frappuccino, but that sounds like a pretty good thing. So when did pumpkin spice lattes debut? Do you know? Like, was it like. Because it feels like it was about ten years ago, but I'm not sure.

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Tyler Keeling: I was gonna say. I feel like it's been about a decade now, but maybe just like a. I'm gonna look it up because I want to know. Come on, pumpkin spice latte.

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Chris: What's funny. I'm gonna record the. The episode with Kayla after. So by now in the interview, I might have already said it on the show.

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Tyler Keeling: Wow. So it's been about 20 years.

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Chris: No way. Holy shit. Really? That's when I graduated. Feels like forever ago.

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Tyler Keeling: I was seven.

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Chris: Wow. Okay. So it's, like, been part of the culture for people's entire lives at this point.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah. I mean, 2003 is the year my little sister was born, which means pumpkin spice is as old as my sister, who.

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Chris: Your sister owes. No world without pumpkin spice. That's it. She's never experienced a world without it.

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Tyler Keeling: That's weird.

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Chris: Yeah. Why do you think that it has developed this sort of cult fandom, like, this obsession?

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Tyler Keeling: I really do think not only is the marketing just absolute genius around fall in general, I don't know how capitalism did it, but they made fall a marketable aesthetic and feeling. And I think part of it has to do with, like, the community that comes around fall. Right. Because, like, you know, it's when you have your first major fashion change throughout the year, like, you get to dress a little more cozy, comfortable, cute. You get layers. So you have, like, a more diverse wardrobe on you. But also, like, going into fall, you get the associations of, like, Thanksgiving. And so that brings, like, this, like, joyous. Like, this joyous feeling of, like, togetherness and family and community. But, like. Like, I think people just also just, like, really, really love the change of the weather.

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Tyler Keeling: Like, we just got out of, like, this really, you know, hype summer. Right. And then you get to just, like, go into this cute, relaxed fall. Like, there's the whole joke on the Internet about christian girl autumn, and it's, like, such a thing.

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Chris: Right, right. Yeah, that makes sense. I agree with you. It's. It. And, yeah, our capitalist society does an extremely good job of taking absolutely everything and anything and turning it into a marketing device, including the essence of fall. It's like, you know, it's, like, not even, like, a physical thing. It's like they've, like, taken this idea, this, like, platonic ideal of fall and turned it into a marketing device. That's pretty wild.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah. I sit here and I think about it, and it's like, can I think of why, you know, people are so obsessed with fall? No. Like, I can, you know, pitch my ideas on it. But, like, I can also tell you that working at Starbucks for six years, you can tell when fall has started, even if you're not keeping track of the calendar yourself, because, like, the customer base changes. Pumpkin spice launch day at Starbucks is, like, huge. Every year, the massive uptick in sales. Like, you know, people are. People are waiting. Like, people will. You know, we do this thing called partner samples, right? So, like, I. People who work at Starbucks, we get to bust into a product a little bit early and have it. You know, we get to.

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Tyler Keeling: We get the delicacy of pumpkin a little bit earlier than everybody else. And the. I'm hesitant to say violence, but the violence that is. That ensues the moment somebody sees from, like, the customer side of things. Like, a bottle of pumpkin open on our counter. Like, I will have people, like, for a week in advance be like, can you just, like, can you just do that? Can you just pick that for me really quick? And I'm like, no. Like, go away. Like, I'm hoarding this from you.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Tyler Keeling: This is my one pleasure in life.

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Chris: Right, right, exactly like, this. This is my, like, incentive here, so please don't take that from me.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah. Like, I get to sit here and lord this over you for, like, one week. Let me have this one thing, and in one week, you can have your pumpkin spice. It'll be fine. But until then, go back to your vanilla lattes. You'll be fine.

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Chris: Do you have any, like, particularly crazy story that maybe sticks out to you if there's, like, a particularly, like, wild customer story?

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Tyler Keeling: I mean, I got a couple. Like, pumpkin spice brings out the devil in people. I don't know, like, how. You know what? The more I talk about this, the more I'm like, yeah, it's a cult. But I literally had somebody reach over our, like, our sneeze guards is what they're called. Like, those big glass, like, barriers. Reach over, take a bottle of pumpkin, and fucking run, and I never saw that customer again.

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Chris: All right, I like, it's.

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Tyler Keeling: That is a bottle of. Just, like, sugar. Like, sugar and a couple of spices and a lot of food coloring, and they rip that bottle off that counter.

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Chris: Probably available at the grocery store.

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Tyler Keeling: I imagine you can definitely buy imitations of it. Starbucks does a good job of keeping their. Their stuff.

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Chris: Oh, so they have, like, a secret pumpkin spice formula. Like, coca Cola secret. Cool. I didn't know that. Is it. Is it, like, locked in a vault and everything? Just like the coke recipe supposedly is?

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Tyler Keeling: I'm pretty sure it's actually, like, hidden in an alternate dimension that, like, you know, the board of directors has to come together, join hands, and say, like, a gregorian chant to open.

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Chris: Right, the pumpkin spice dimension. Yeah, yeah.

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Tyler Keeling: I saw it at doctor who once.

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Chris: Right? All right. So you had a smash and grab pumpkin spice customer.

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Tyler Keeling: Yes.

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Chris: What? You said you had a couple stories.

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Tyler Keeling: I I remember. So the year pumpkin cream cold brew was introduced, it was probably, like, 2018 or something like that.

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Chris: Those are good.

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Tyler Keeling: They are so good. Like, I'm not gonna lie. I'm a sucker for them, too.

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Chris: Like, oh, yeah.

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Tyler Keeling: But, But I remember the year was introduced. That was the first year I had ever seen pumpkin spice run out early.

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Chris: Really?

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Tyler Keeling: Normally, we have carryover straight through January, in my experience. But that year, we ran out before the end of December, and it was just kind of, like, such a weird thing to happen because, like, that had never happened when I worked at the company. I thought it was gonna be, like, you know, a temporary shortage. It would be back. But then they formally announced that it wouldn't come back until the year after. And just, like, the aggression that were met with over it, because people. We were sold out, and people didn't want us to be sold out.

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Chris: Right.

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Tyler Keeling: I don't think we even had it on Christmas that year. And, like, people were like, where's my pumpkin? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know.

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Chris: Please don't hurt me.

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Tyler Keeling: I literally had somebody, like, come into the lobby after getting out of my drive thru and accused me of hiding a bottle in the back for Justine. I was like, girl. Like, even if I did, I would dump it out. So that way, I could have, like, a sweet vindication of, like, you not.

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Chris: Having it, but, like, oh, man, I can't imagine, though, how frustrating that might be if you go and you're like, this is. You know, it's been such a stressful holiday season, but, you know, I'm gonna get out. I'm gonna go through the pump. I'm gonna go through the drive through and get my pumpkin spice. It's my one solace of the day in this crazy season, and then it's not there. That would be. That would feel pretty bad.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah. Oh, 100%. No, I feel the sympathy to it, but also, I'm just like, oops.

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Chris: Right? Wow, that's crazy that they ran out, though. That's. But that hasn't happened since.

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Tyler Keeling: No, it hasn't happened since. I think they. They understood next year they had to ramp it up because, like, missed sales opportunities and what have you. And Starbucks hates losing any kind of money.

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Chris: Right. Yeah, I can imagine. You. You mentioned a little bit as were chatting that. That you are a fan, as well. So, are you. You pro or anti pumpkin spice. It sounds like pro.

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Tyler Keeling: I'm pro pumpkin cream cold brews. I don't really care about pumpkin spice lattes that much. You know, one of the weirdest things about pumpkin spice is, like, year over year, it's a little different. There's not been two years where it was the same, and this year it's a little less spicy, a little more sweet. And I thought that was really weird. So I actually haven't even really had many pumpkin cream cold brews this year, but I'm very pro pumpkin cream cold brew. That stuff is so good.

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Chris: Yeah, it's super good. I think that one of the weird things to me about this whole situation is that it also seems to inspire a big backlash. I've been reading some articles online where it's like, I just read this one article that's, like, pumpkin spice means the decline of american empire or whatever. So what is it about pumpkin spice that you think generates this, like, this backlash of, like, hate?

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Tyler Keeling: Oh, it's absolutely misogyny.

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Chris: Really?

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Tyler Keeling: Pumpkin spice? Oh, 100%. Like, I mean, you think about it, like, oh, the decline of the american empire. What always goes hand in hand with that? Like, you know, the demasculization of culture or whatever, right? Pumpkin spice rolls around and, like, women hit this new level of, like, awakening, like, third eye open, like, powerful, and, you know, like, everyone's getting pumpkin spice, and I don't even know, like, how or why, but, like, pumpkin spice is always associated, you know, even I mentioned it, like, you know, like, christian girl autumn or whatever it is. You know, pumpkin spice has this inherent tie to femininity for some reason. I mean, Starbucks does a lot of the time, unless you're getting, like, a cold brew.

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Chris: Yeah, but, like, I feel the, like, the feminine vibe coming off of it.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah, right. It's got, like, you know, just, like, culturally implanted in your mind, even if you don't realize that, like, pumpkin spice is for women. And it's like, well, no, like, obviously, because, like, how do you gender a syrup?

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Chris: But, like, we'll find a way.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah, right. If there's one thing this country could goddamn do, which gender everything, like, anytime, anything that, like, belongs to women in any cultural sense, like, happens, it's seen as, like, the decline of the american empire. And there's always this move to cut it down. Like, I mean, even look at, like, you know, cartoons, right? You look at cartoons and, like, some of the most successful cartoons in history were canceled for being popular with women, like, teen titans. That show was canceled because women bought all the merchandise, and it was more popular with, like, girls than it was with guys.

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Chris: Fascinating.

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Tyler Keeling: So, yeah, so I feel like, you know, that backlash totally stems from that. But I also guarantee you that these people writing these articles are the same people who are secretly drinking their pumpkin spice lattes.

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Chris: Oh, yeah. I was thinking about that when I was reading one of them. This guy was just, like, hating all over it. And I was like, you definitely either still partake or are like. Like, you used to be a huge fan and now you've, like, converted or something and now you're, like, you know, super. I don't know. I could just tell that he, like, harbored some personal vendetta.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah, it's, like, totally projecting, because, like, it's definitely the kind of thing where it's like, this man is clearly getting, like, his wife to go buy him a pumpkin spice latte so he doesn't have to be embarrassed about it.

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Chris: Right. Unspoken, you know? Like, she's gonna bring him a pumpkin spice and he's gonna be like, you know, I don't like those honey and then, like, go up and drink it anyway, you know?

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah.

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Chris: Act in our society. That's how it works.

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Tyler Keeling: We can't just, like, always take it back to. Always takes me back to soprano season one with Tony going to therapy.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah. Where it's like he's going and getting benefit, but he, God forbid if that ever, if anybody ever finds out that he's actually doing it in the real world. Holy shit.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah. End of his life. That that's it. He's done for.

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Chris: I mean, would he have even needed therapy if he had psls, though? Probably not, right? Yeah.

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Tyler Keeling: I mean, you know, for the first couple of years of sopranos, I guess psls didn't happen, so.

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Chris: Yeah, it was pre psl world, if we can all believe that. I don't know, but apparently it was. We've had psls for much longer than I thought. So thank you for that tidbit.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah, that's blowing my mind. Don't worry. But you know what? Like, that just makes me think, like, when I work at this company next year, there's going to be a 20th celebration of pumpkin spice, and that's going to be a lot.

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Chris: Oh, boy. Yeah. Oh, wait. Oh, I bet some crazy new product. I love it. Can't wait.

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Tyler Keeling: Oh, yeah.

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Chris: The one more thing I want to ask is what is your opinion on why pumpkin spice has gone from just psls to, like, literally everything? I feel like some of the backlash I've read has been, you know, sort of gets. Gets centered around the, like, did you know that there are pumpkin spice butt plugs? You know, it's like, that's. It's always like, there's some crazy product. So, like, what is it, in your opinion, that got pumpkin spice all over everything?

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Tyler Keeling: I, you know, I've got. I got two answers. I got my big brain answer, and then I got my small brain answer. So I'll start with a big brain. Capitalism saw it as marketable, like, marketably successful, and so, like, you know what people will do? People will fall for anything. And so, like, okay, what if we put pumpkin spice. I don't know. And, like, you know, a cookie or, like, pumpkin spice and a. I don't know, what. What have you. Right. Because people go crazy for it because there's that fall, like, that belonging to the fall. And so people will just buy anything. Like, you know, they're gonna get that pumpkin spice butt plug because they got to have it for their fall haul of it. Like, their fall celebrations, right.

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Chris: For their fall themed, orgies.

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Tyler Keeling: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Their fall theme. Just, like, I don't know, plug ups or whatever you have. You. My small brain answer here is because people just really like it. Like, I don't know, like, people really fucking like it. Like, people are just like, pumpkin heat, and, like, those are kind of the same answer in some ways. But, like, the small brain answer here is just that, like, there's the demand. Like, people are like, ooh wee. Like, yeah, I'm gonna go buy that pumpkin spice themed phone case. Like, I'm gonna go buy that pumpkin spice ornament. Like, I'm gonna.

420
00:57:33,982 --> 00:57:34,476
Chris: Right.

421
00:57:34,588 --> 00:57:38,924
Tyler Keeling: I don't know, like, put pumpkin spice on my turkey or what have you. Like, I don't know.

422
00:57:39,092 --> 00:57:43,280
Chris: Right. I got my pumpkin spice themed graphics card. I can't wait to plug this in.

423
00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:47,700
Tyler Keeling: Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, pumpkin spice tattoos, wallpaper.

424
00:57:47,820 --> 00:57:49,108
Chris: Like, yeah.

425
00:57:49,244 --> 00:57:51,160
Tyler Keeling: I kind of shampoo conditioner.

426
00:57:51,740 --> 00:58:37,414
Chris: Your big and small brain answer kind of feel like two sides of the same coin a little bit, though, right? Like. Like, one is about, like, the, like, the realization on the marketing teams of America on. On what's going on. You know, sniffing what's going on. And the what's going on part is, like, genuinely. Yeah, people. People are into it. I did get a little. And speaking to the backlash, too, I got a little bit of an impression sometimes of the, like, I get a vibe off of the backlash side of, like, you don't actually like, this. You're just basic, right? This, like, sort of removal of agency. Like, that's one of the angles. I think that almost makes the pumpkin spice backlash more of the cult is because it removes that sense of, like, you're not actually personally making a choice here.

427
00:58:37,502 --> 00:58:40,810
Chris: You're just falling for the blah, blah, what have you.

428
00:58:41,470 --> 00:59:18,498
Tyler Keeling: I mean, I think, you know, there is, you know, some truth to that. But I think the other side of it is that, like, you know, simple comforts, right? Like, we are all. I mean, especially the last couple of years. I mean, God, even in 2003, right, we're still coming out of, like, a huge cultural trauma. And so there's, like, you know, small comfort things. Everyone has their small comfort things. Everyone needs their little small comforts. And even you mentioned it just, like, a minute ago, right? Talking about, like, oh, I've just been having the worst day. I'm gonna go and get this pumpkin spice latte. It'll make me feel a little bit better. And, like, I definitely think some agency is lost when marketing does kind of, like, run the forefront of our culture in a lot of ways.

429
00:59:18,674 --> 00:59:51,820
Tyler Keeling: But, like, I also think that there is truth to the fact that, like, even if it is basic, there is a level of comfort to it. And, you know, especially coming out of just, like, year over year, just some new crazy, like, sidle trauma, you know, that's why Starbucks is so successful. I mean, damn. Like, I'll tell you what. Working through the pandemic, like, angling Starbucks as, like, a moment of comfort, like, oh, my God. The impact it had on our business was unreal. Like, you know, everyone else was losing money during the pandemic, and my store only grew in business. Like, it was insane.

430
00:59:52,120 --> 01:00:01,340
Chris: That's really interesting. I feel like I actually did. That tracks with my own experience. I think I went to Starbucks more after the pandemic started than before.

431
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:13,944
Tyler Keeling: Yeah, no, 100%. Like, and it's. It's not just you. It's, like, everybody. Like, at this point, I've watched people go from criticizing prices to just be like, you know what? I'll pay this goddamn price. I'll pay $9. Goddamn. I don't care anymore.

432
01:00:14,072 --> 01:00:23,980
Chris: Yeah, actually, that's a. I've noticed that too. I had, like, is there used to be like, oh, my God, it's. How much for coffee? And I haven't heard that in a while now. It's just kind of like, you know what? This is fucking worth it.

433
01:00:24,100 --> 01:00:28,836
Tyler Keeling: Yeah. And we'll have, like, five price raises a year, and people will just be like, yeah, give a goddamn cup of sugar.

434
01:00:29,028 --> 01:00:30,148
Chris: Right, right. Yeah.

435
01:00:30,244 --> 01:00:42,508
Tyler Keeling: You know, a little comfort here and there is. It's needed sometimes. And people do turn to pumpkin spice for that. Like, there's comfort in that for them. And people love that. Makes them feel good, makes them feel safe, makes them feel happy.

436
01:00:42,644 --> 01:01:02,480
Chris: That's. That's the quote I'm going to use at the top of the show right there. That's. That's. That's a good perspective. That's well said. The last question I would normally ask is, do you think it's a cult? But I led with that this time. So is there anything else that I didn't get to that you wanted to mention or anything you want to add?

437
01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:13,800
Tyler Keeling: Yeah, I got. I got two things. Chestnut praline is objectively a better syrup, and I will die on this hill. It is the most underappreciated, holiday eradic syrup that we have, and it is goddamn incredible.

438
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,792
Chris: I haven't tried it. That. See, now that's a tip. Now, that's an actionable tip.

439
01:01:17,936 --> 01:01:29,808
Tyler Keeling: Barista insider right there. Chestnut praline will change your life. I, you know, in a way that people go crazy over pumpkin spice. I sit there biting time for chestnut praline, waiting for that bottle to ship.

440
01:01:29,984 --> 01:01:32,940
Chris: But is that like a. Like a Christmas time thing?

441
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:50,998
Tyler Keeling: Yeah, it's part of our, like the holiday lineup that we do. Of course, pumpkin gets pulled into that when we get to that point, but chestnut praline reigns supreme. And then also stream crash by Charlie XCX. My traditional. Me and Josie's traditional must have in there.

442
01:01:51,094 --> 01:01:55,410
Chris: Yeah, of course. That's why you're on the show, right? So you can plug your thing.

443
01:01:55,790 --> 01:01:57,838
Tyler Keeling: Yeah, absolutely. Got to have my continuity too.

444
01:01:57,934 --> 01:02:03,478
Chris: Yeah, right. This will remind everybody who you are from a couple episodes ago, too.

445
01:02:03,534 --> 01:02:11,996
Tyler Keeling: So the amount of friends I had messaging me being like, you mentioned Charlie XDX in that podcast. I'm like, you're damn right I did. I'm literally wearing a Charlie XDX shirt right now.

446
01:02:12,068 --> 01:02:25,360
Chris: Yeah, you are. Holy shit. All right, well, that's why we're here, folks. Charlie Xex, Tyler, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate. Again, so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It was a fun conversation.

447
01:02:25,980 --> 01:02:28,600
Tyler Keeling: It was very fun. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

448
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:38,782
Chris: Okay, so that is the single most useful interview we've done because I learned of chestnut praline.

449
01:02:38,926 --> 01:02:43,430
Kayla: We've got action items. What are we doing? Recording let's get out of here. Go get the chestnut praline.

450
01:02:43,510 --> 01:03:02,104
Chris: Yeah. Usually these interviews are like, let's pontificate about things, and this one's like, chestnut praline. Put it on your checklist when the holiday, whatever stuff comes along for Starbucks. I don't know when that is, actually. It's funny that now that I'm mentioning that for psls, I don't think it's ever, like, there's not, like, a certain date.

451
01:03:02,272 --> 01:03:03,048
Kayla: Are you kidding?

452
01:03:03,144 --> 01:03:03,968
Chris: That's part of the.

453
01:03:04,024 --> 01:03:04,984
Kayla: No, there is.

454
01:03:05,152 --> 01:03:07,576
Chris: Yeah, but it's not like. It's not, like, set every year.

455
01:03:07,648 --> 01:03:08,296
Kayla: It's not.

456
01:03:08,408 --> 01:03:09,056
Chris: I don't think so.

457
01:03:09,088 --> 01:03:25,030
Kayla: I just know people like, okay, maybe they're not a set date, but, like, the date that it's going to come out is a big deal. Like, I know people that put that date on their calendar, that go get the pumpkin spice latte that day, that alert all of their friends, that, like, pumpkin spice lattes are dropping on this day. Are you sure it's not like the first.

458
01:03:25,330 --> 01:03:41,418
Chris: Let me put it this way. It's like, I don't think so. I think what it's like is it's. It's less like a holiday and more like a movie release. So it's. Yeah, it's like, it's not the same day every year, but it is like, you know, it's, like, announced and then people are like, oh, shit, it's, you know, August 30.

459
01:03:41,554 --> 01:03:43,458
Kayla: It was August 30 of 2022.

460
01:03:43,474 --> 01:03:45,562
Chris: Was it August 30 this year? Wasn't August 33.

461
01:03:45,626 --> 01:03:46,834
Kayla: It was not August 33.

462
01:03:46,882 --> 01:03:48,578
Chris: Unfortunately, that makes a lot of people sad.

463
01:03:48,634 --> 01:03:49,270
Kayla: Yeah.

464
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:58,916
Chris: I'll also say that as were sitting here drinking our own psls, and he was like, it's sweeter this year. I'm kind of like, oh, yeah, this does taste sweeter than I remember.

465
01:03:59,028 --> 01:04:06,316
Kayla: I could do with some more spice. That is something that I will say is that I probably will get one pumpkin spice latte a year.

466
01:04:06,388 --> 01:04:06,660
Chris: Yeah.

467
01:04:06,700 --> 01:04:11,772
Kayla: Because it is. With the uniqueness of its flavor. It's also a very strong flavor. It's also very sweet flavor.

468
01:04:11,876 --> 01:04:15,068
Chris: Wait, do we count the treat cold brew, though, that they mentioned?

469
01:04:15,124 --> 01:04:17,326
Kayla: I don't count, though. Cold brew. That's a difference.

470
01:04:17,478 --> 01:04:20,270
Chris: I don't know, man. I feel like it's got the pumpkin spice flavor.

471
01:04:20,310 --> 01:04:21,966
Kayla: It does, but it's less sweet.

472
01:04:22,158 --> 01:04:33,830
Chris: It is. But like, josie mentioned in her written responses that the cream, the pumpkin spice cold brew cream is. They have to make, like, a shit ton of it. They have to make, like, industrial amounts of that. Stuff. Cause people love it so much.

473
01:04:33,870 --> 01:04:39,046
Kayla: It just feels like it's a different. A different experience. It's a more coffee forward experience, whereas there is not.

474
01:04:39,078 --> 01:04:39,526
Chris: Yeah, for sure.

475
01:04:39,558 --> 01:04:43,494
Kayla: There is not a drip of coffee in the pumpkin spice latte that I.

476
01:04:43,502 --> 01:05:07,802
Chris: Can taste coffee within a thousand miles of the pumpkin spice latte. Actually, it's funny. One of the things in the development of the pumpkin spice flavor that they were worried about, like, one of the reasons they were not wanting to use it is because they were afraid that it would overpower the coffiness of the latte. It does, and it totally does. And I guess, like, at this point, that's kind of working as intended, but that was one of the things that they, like, originally were, like, worried about.

477
01:05:07,946 --> 01:05:08,950
Kayla: Interesting.

478
01:05:10,180 --> 01:05:48,034
Chris: I just want to unpack a few other things that he said. One was, like, how he said, there's customers that only come in for pumpkin spice, which I think is really funny and totally, this is a flag in the cult direction for. This is like a check mark in the cult box for me because it reminds me of my parents, who are Catholic, and they talk about twice a year christians. So, like, people who only go to church because they go to church every week, but, like, people that, like, they only see show up, you know, on Easter and Christmas vigil, they're like, oh, those. There's the twice a year christians, they're gonna fill up the parking lot.

479
01:05:48,082 --> 01:05:48,670
Kayla: Right.

480
01:05:49,370 --> 01:05:56,242
Chris: And it just kind of reminds me of that. It's like, oh, it's like twice a year or once a year latte drink.

481
01:05:56,346 --> 01:05:57,410
Kayla: Right, right.

482
01:05:57,570 --> 01:06:03,914
Chris: So I kind of feel like that makes it more religion y just because I drew this, like, random parallel in my head. What do you think?

483
01:06:03,962 --> 01:06:08,226
Kayla: Yeah, I'm picking up what you're laying down.

484
01:06:08,338 --> 01:06:44,792
Chris: Yeah. We also talked a lot about the seasonality of it. Right. I mean, we talked about this before even the interview. But I will say one of theses was, it's not really about the flavor. It's more about the feeling. And as I was sitting there drinking it, I'm like, actually, this is pretty good, though. Yeah, I like, this is. This is actually. This is pretty tasty. But he talked a lot about the season. One of the things about the PSL in that it, like harb. It's a harbinger for fall for people in warmer climates. It's actually, like, very powerful that way.

485
01:06:44,856 --> 01:06:45,272
Kayla: Right.

486
01:06:45,376 --> 01:07:15,118
Chris: Because if you live in southern California, for example, you don't see leaves change on the trees. You don't really. It doesn't feel that much cooler really. Right, right. Like, it doesn't really get that much more overcast. So there's not too much other than the artificial things that we create as a culture to signal the changing of a season. And so actually, in warmer climates, PSL actually sort of, like, has, like, more impact and more power that way.

487
01:07:15,294 --> 01:07:54,302
Kayla: I also think, yes, that absolutely is why I'm going after pumpkin spice lattes, because I love fall, and I do not live in a fall heavy climate. And I also think that there's something to a lot of people, particularly a lot of people in the United States, probably a lot of white people, we don't really have the same cultural markings of the passage of time and cultural markings of seasons changing simply for the fact that we don't live in a settler society anymore where people are homesteading and having to, you know, farm for.

488
01:07:54,326 --> 01:07:56,118
Chris: Themselves and then make pumpkin pies.

489
01:07:56,174 --> 01:08:28,944
Kayla: Make pumpkin pies and preserve for the winter. We don't have clear touchstones to mark the passage of time in this way. And for a lot of us, the way that, like, culture or cultural touchstones have now manifest is through consumption. So the way that we mark the passage of time, the way that we mark, like, its fall now is. Bye. Buying the pumpkin spice latte or visiting the pumpkin patch to buy a pumpkin.

490
01:08:29,032 --> 01:08:31,352
Chris: Just how they want it, or, you.

491
01:08:31,376 --> 01:09:04,755
Kayla: Know, to visit the pumpkin patch to take a picture, to put on Instagram and mark the passage of time that way. No. Hate to Instagram or going to the pumpkin patch for these reasons. I think that's just. That's part of why this stuff is so powerful. I'm not trying to denigrate that. That's something that is done. I'm just trying to say, like, right. We as people, historically, it is important for us to mark the passage of time, to acknowledge the changing of seasons. We don't have a lot of ways to do that as people in the west. I don't know what other people do. This is a way to kind of reclaim some of that, for better or for worse.

492
01:09:04,867 --> 01:09:46,926
Chris: Yeah. And it goes back to kind of, like, one of the things that Tyler said up top about, like, you know, the marketing takeover of, like, the season of fall. I mean, that's kind of what you're talking about, right? Is like, how. How do we do? How do we have this feeling? This. How do we mark this passage of time? How do we get our brains in this space that we're comfortable with from, like, millions of years of evolution or whatever, right? And, you know, the marketing machine is like, oh, yeah. Well, you gotta buy this thing. You gotta buy this thing. Then you'll. Then you'll feel okay. But, yeah, I think that also, then, like, kind of. So we talked about the backlash, right? We talked about the misogyny of the backlash. And we also.

493
01:09:46,997 --> 01:09:51,729
Kayla: How dare women be happy and enjoy something terrible. NPC's.

494
01:09:52,229 --> 01:10:03,790
Chris: Prior to the interview, we talked a little bit about the, like, related anti consumerist aspect of the backlash. Right. And I think where part of it comes from.

495
01:10:03,870 --> 01:10:05,694
Kayla: Can I add one more thing to what the backlash is?

496
01:10:05,742 --> 01:10:06,286
Chris: Yeah.

497
01:10:06,438 --> 01:10:16,582
Kayla: I also think part of the backlash is literally to the fact that it is a sweet beverage. And there is a lot of criticism in our society of consuming sweet beverages.

498
01:10:16,686 --> 01:10:17,454
Chris: Sugar is the devil.

499
01:10:17,502 --> 01:10:47,004
Kayla: It's feminized, first of all, like, we talked about. And, yeah, it's like, sugar is this symbol of weakness, of indulgence. It ties into a lot of those other things were talking about decay. Some of the misogyny towards this stuff will come from people who have that specific flavor of, like, I'm on the Paleo diet and I listen to Joe Rogan, and I love Jordan Peterson. And fuck a pumpkin spice latte because women drink it and it's got sugar in it. Like that. Okay, well, that feels tight.

500
01:10:47,092 --> 01:10:53,564
Chris: Jordan Peterson isn't Paleo kale. We've done this in the show before. Jordan Peterson is only meat, only beef.

501
01:10:53,652 --> 01:10:54,860
Kayla: He's not a carnivore anymore.

502
01:10:54,900 --> 01:10:55,604
Chris: Oh, he's not carnivore anymore.

503
01:10:55,612 --> 01:10:59,614
Kayla: He's quietly fallen away. Yeah, he's kidding me. He doesn't stick to that diet anymore.

504
01:10:59,662 --> 01:11:23,050
Chris: That makes me want to cry. I just. Anyway, excuse me. I think part of the backlash also is like, this. Yeah. Is just like, we're all sort of sick of consumerism, and then, like, the way that we get sick of it sort of manifests itself in different ways. Like, some of us get sick of it, and they're like, let's vote for Bernie Sanders. And other people get sick of it and are like, I hate women in minorities.

505
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,920
Kayla: Fuck the people who are buying Starbucks rather than fuck Starbucks.

506
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:45,648
Chris: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's kind of some of the vibe I got, especially for, like, because it gets into so many things. You know? It's like. It's kind of like, you can't really avoid it either. You can't. Like, with Starbucks, it's like, you don't have to go to Starbucks, but with pumpkin spice, it's like, this time of year, you see it everywhere.

507
01:11:45,704 --> 01:11:46,064
Kayla: Right?

508
01:11:46,152 --> 01:12:46,312
Chris: So I think it's just, like, present in people's minds, you know? And, like, a lot of it has to do with taste and class anxiety. I wanted to read this quote from a Buzzfeed piece. So this is from a woman named Anne Helen Peterson, who is basically like, anthropological researcher. So she's talking about taste and what is considered basic versus what is considered cosmopolitan and worthy of. Of taste or whatever. So she says, unique taste and the capacity to avoid the basic is a privilege. A privilege of location, usually urban, of education, exposure to other cultures and locales and of parentage who would introduce and exalt other tastes. To summarize the groundbreaking work of theorist Pierre Bourdieu, we don't choose our tastes so much as the micro specifics of our class determination them. I thought that was a really interesting quote.

509
01:12:46,456 --> 01:13:09,278
Kayla: I mean, that is my experience personally. If I am, like, sitting and going, like, why do I like to eat this, whatever this happens to be, a lot of times, if I really zoom out and think about it's not just because it's tasty and I like it. There's a lot of other, like, there's a lot of other things going into it.

510
01:13:09,344 --> 01:13:09,610
Chris: Yeah.

511
01:13:09,650 --> 01:13:42,624
Kayla: I don't just. I don't just like ramen because ramen is delicious. There's a lot that has to do with my peer group and what ramen represented when I was growing up and what it represents now and what foodie culture is, quote unquote, and what Instagram foodie culture is and what is considered, like, what's specific to certain classes of LA itself. Like, there's a lot that goes into the choices that we make and the things that we like. And that's not to say that it's wrong or that you don't like it just because it's been influenced. It's just we have been influenced.

512
01:13:42,672 --> 01:13:50,336
Chris: And that's a real acknowledging the influence. Right. Like, the real question isn't whether somebody else has agency over the choices. The real question is whether I even do.

513
01:13:50,408 --> 01:13:51,104
Kayla: Right. Right.

514
01:13:51,192 --> 01:14:41,346
Chris: That's kind of what calls into question is, like, I also like things for reasons, you know, like, we all like things for reasons. Me too. Me included. I like spaghetti because, like, my mom cooked spaghetti when I was a kid. And I like XYZ thing because of, like, its associations with XYZ thing. Right. And that's certainly true of pumpkin spice. Right. Like, we like it because of these certain associations. And it's really interesting, this sort of, like, this claim about the microspecifics of our class determining our tastes. It's interesting vis a vis the story we just told about, like, pumpkin itself, right? How it's, like, pumpkin was a big staple in american diet because were all of this, like, agrarian, rural class. And then as that changed, were like, oh, actually, we don't like pumpkin anymore.

515
01:14:41,418 --> 01:14:42,226
Kayla: Right. Right.

516
01:14:42,298 --> 01:14:55,962
Chris: As the class changed, were like, no, thanks. And then as it, like, changed back then, like, our, like, as the tastes, like, reversed again in, like, the, you know, cottage core, we should like pumpkin because, you know, bucolic nostalgia.

517
01:14:56,066 --> 01:14:56,570
Kayla: Right.

518
01:14:56,690 --> 01:15:09,970
Chris: Then it's back in. So it's just. It's really interesting how this, like, this kind of. This whole story, and especially the backlash and, like, the reaction, the emotional reaction to pumpkin spice is really about this idea, seemingly.

519
01:15:10,050 --> 01:15:57,372
Kayla: And, man, there are so many foods that this can apply to. And, like, you see this a lot in just even criticisms of, like, well, boomers like mayonnaise and millennials like, aioli. Like, it's avocado toast. Well, I'm thinking specifically of, like, a mayonnaise. Like, mayonnaise. Why did mayonnaise become so widespread? Oh, because of, like, the wealth of the 1950s leading to convenience foods. And convenience foods were actually a symbol of, like, the US doing very well economically. And, like, then it kind of fell out of fashion with people our age, and were, like, backlashing against our parents of, like, I don't want the maidan that's, like, so, like, american people over 41.

520
01:15:57,436 --> 01:16:01,252
Chris: Yeah. That's the basic thing.

521
01:16:01,276 --> 01:16:16,340
Kayla: Authentic. I want aioli. And then, like, aioli got really big. And then you see, like, with the backlash to that, like, chefs, you know, the Anthony Bourdain's of the world and. And the chefs of that ilk are talking about, like, cooking with mayonnaise and how mayonnaise is a great ingredient.

522
01:16:16,420 --> 01:16:16,924
Chris: Yeah, yeah.

523
01:16:16,972 --> 01:16:20,488
Kayla: Put mayonnaise on your grilled cheese sandwiches. What are you doing? So now, like, mayonnaise is kind of.

524
01:16:20,544 --> 01:16:21,464
Chris: It's like, back, baby.

525
01:16:21,512 --> 01:16:35,064
Kayla: Mayonnaise is cooler than aioli. It actually is at this point. So, like, there are a lot of micro influences or whatever. Whatever that terminology was that goes into even something like, whether mayonnaise is an acceptable dish to be eating.

526
01:16:35,192 --> 01:17:07,794
Chris: Right? It's like, so much of our. Like, we think our taste is just what we think is tasty, but so much of it is, like, follows these trends of, like, of either, like, class, right? Like, whether something is considered elite or poor or whatever, always, like, fluctuates, and then this. This sort of, like, other fluctuation that you're talking about where it's like this. I don't know, it's like. It's like the cool, uncool cycle. You know, it's like, enough. It becomes popular enough, and it's like, it's not cool anymore. I mean, you heard of this weird thing called mayonnaise? That's cool because nobody likes mayonnaise right now. I'm the first one to like it.

527
01:17:07,882 --> 01:17:08,922
Kayla: That's Starbucks.

528
01:17:09,026 --> 01:17:09,314
Chris: Yeah.

529
01:17:09,362 --> 01:17:10,882
Kayla: Starbucks started out cool.

530
01:17:10,946 --> 01:17:11,978
Chris: It was the cool. Yeah.

531
01:17:12,074 --> 01:17:15,832
Kayla: And it is so basic to the point where it's, like, cool again.

532
01:17:15,936 --> 01:17:17,256
Chris: Yeah, yeah.

533
01:17:17,408 --> 01:17:23,176
Kayla: It's a hot girl drink. It used to be a hot girl drink, then it was like, don't drink Starbucks, and now it's hot girl drink.

534
01:17:23,288 --> 01:18:10,358
Chris: Yeah. You mentioned millennials, too. Like, that was a big thrust for the growth of PSL. It was all about millennials were buying psls. And it kind of ties into that whole Instagram thing were talking about. I also got some written responses from our friend of the show, Josie, as well. So they echoed actually, like, a lot of the same sentiments that the Tyler did. So big. I have, like, all of the answers here in front of me. Big whole section about pumpkin cream cold brew. And, like, the quote here is the amount of cold foam we have to blend for these drinks is just ungodly. So apparently, like, that's where it's at now, is the pumpkin cream cold brew. And as someone who had that, like, a week ago, yes, it's very good.

535
01:18:10,414 --> 01:18:12,102
Kayla: Okay, so that's cool now.

536
01:18:12,246 --> 01:18:12,894
Chris: Yeah.

537
01:18:13,022 --> 01:18:18,614
Kayla: So drink that and you'll be less basic than the hot girls drinking the pumpkin spice latte.

538
01:18:18,662 --> 01:18:26,798
Chris: But by the time you hear this, it won't be cool again. So just don't even try. The real thing is, if you don't try to be cool, that's the only real way to be cool.

539
01:18:26,854 --> 01:18:29,250
Kayla: True. We would know.

540
01:18:29,790 --> 01:18:55,142
Chris: I would know what cool is. Okay. Josie also mentions that, like, there are customers who do get super obsessed and will, like, pile the pumpkin spice onto every drink that doesn't really need it, in my opinion. Is the, quote, pumpkin spice added to caramel macchiatos, pumpkin spice added to matcha tea lattes? Yeah, I don't know that. I don't know. People just like it, though.

541
01:18:55,206 --> 01:18:56,430
Kayla: But I don't want to eat it.

542
01:18:56,550 --> 01:19:11,394
Chris: Yeah, I know. Also says that pumpkin spice is definitely something that draws crowds, but at the same time, usually peak popularity within its first few days of launch. And they call it the fall launch, by the way, they don't say the internal lingo is the fall launch.

543
01:19:11,442 --> 01:19:12,586
Kayla: The fall launch.

544
01:19:12,778 --> 01:19:23,938
Chris: It's a fashion line, but, yeah, apparently it is like a big sort of black Friday rush and then kind of tails off as the season goes on. That kind of tracks with what you're saying about people that just get it once a year.

545
01:19:24,034 --> 01:19:25,730
Kayla: Yeah, I'm good. I don't need it again.

546
01:19:25,850 --> 01:19:26,514
Chris: Right.

547
01:19:26,682 --> 01:19:30,362
Kayla: I'll wait for that chestnut praline, Josie.

548
01:19:30,506 --> 01:20:16,646
Chris: For their part, pumpkin spice apologist, which I'm glad, because we don't want any haters on this show. So I'm glad that both Tyler and Josie seem to be pro pumpkin spice. According to Josie, it was their gateway into coffee as a teenager. First time they ever tried espresso. And then basically just kind of says some of the same stuff that we've been talking about and that Tyler talked about regarding the. The marketing. Like, they're. Josie and Tyler are actually, like, super impressive in terms of their, like, their marketing savvy. I want to say. I'll even read this quote. I think pumpkin spice is an excellently executed example of timed exclusivity. Wow. That's a sentence with a lot of exs in it and how that affects the public's demand for it.

549
01:20:16,678 --> 01:20:39,780
Chris: Pumpkin spice is popular, but it's only ordered to a feverish extent during the beginning of its arrival at my Starbucks. Everybody loves the idea of fall returning. And through marketing, they associate that with pumpkin spice lattes. It's another example of cult mentality being promoted through how a company uses messaging and association to its advantage. End quote. So what do you think, Kayla?

550
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:42,320
Kayla: I think I want to know. Pumpkin spice latte.

551
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:49,576
Chris: No, I know. Well, now that I, like, downed this, like, venti pumpkin spice latte, I'm like, first of all, I have a sugar high. And second of all, I kind of have to pee.

552
01:20:49,648 --> 01:20:51,816
Kayla: I want the pumpkin cream cold brew next.

553
01:20:51,888 --> 01:20:54,702
Chris: Yeah, that's true. Well, see, now it's the afternoon, so.

554
01:20:54,726 --> 01:20:55,558
Kayla: Now I need to have my afternoon.

555
01:20:55,574 --> 01:21:01,702
Chris: We've had our pumpkin spice lattes, so now we go back and we get our pumpkin cold brews.

556
01:21:01,766 --> 01:21:02,342
Kayla: Perfect.

557
01:21:02,486 --> 01:21:06,054
Chris: But the one thing I am gonna put on my calendar for sure is the chestnut praline.

558
01:21:06,102 --> 01:21:06,822
Kayla: I want it now.

559
01:21:06,886 --> 01:21:11,222
Chris: Cause I'm like, yes. The way he was talking about it, I was like, holy shit, I gotta have that.

560
01:21:11,246 --> 01:21:27,058
Kayla: I'm not gonna lie. That is something that I still uniquely love about Starbucks is I do love to. If I'm in a Starbucks drive through or whatever, and it's a seasonal time, I wanna go, ooh. And pick one of the fancy new little flavors that I'm never gonna get any other time. It's just a nice little reward. Nice little treat.

561
01:21:27,154 --> 01:21:34,834
Chris: Yep. Yeah. And I love what he said, too, about the. Like, sometimes it's these, you know, these small comforts are actually pretty freaking important.

562
01:21:34,962 --> 01:21:37,658
Kayla: Yeah, that's all we've got. You know, it's all we've got when.

563
01:21:37,714 --> 01:21:40,850
Chris: When it's the pandemic sucks ass and, like, everything's on fire.

564
01:21:40,930 --> 01:21:45,450
Kayla: When there's no fall because there's no more seasons because of climate change, I'm gonna drink my pumpkin spice.

565
01:21:45,490 --> 01:22:00,534
Chris: That will be the only way that any of us know that it's fall is pumpkin spice lattes. All right, so is it a cult or just weird charismatic leader Peter Dukes, the guy who invented it? Is that. I think so. I think that's all we got. Either that, or we could say Howard Schultz, uncle.

566
01:22:00,582 --> 01:22:05,982
Kayla: Or we could say christian girl, autumn. Instagram.

567
01:22:06,046 --> 01:22:17,486
Chris: No, I like that better. Like, the platonic ideal of the Instagram christian girl. Okay. That's very charismatic, though. Here's the thing that's just oozing charisma.

568
01:22:17,518 --> 01:22:43,020
Kayla: There is nothing more basic than a girl with dyed blonde hair curled to perfection. Scarf, 2016. Makeup, big, huge scarf. Sweater, skinny jeans, boots up to her knees, holding a pumpkin spice latte for an Instagram photo on a tree lined street where all the leaves have changed and fallen to the ground.

569
01:22:43,060 --> 01:22:45,534
Chris: Oh, yeah. Give it to me, baby. Straighten my veins.

570
01:22:45,692 --> 01:22:50,618
Kayla: But I aspire to that when I am drinking my pumpkin spice latte. I will not lie.

571
01:22:50,674 --> 01:22:54,190
Chris: Okay. Charismatic. High. Expected. Harm.

572
01:22:55,210 --> 01:22:56,002
Kayla: Low.

573
01:22:56,186 --> 01:22:57,882
Chris: Well, I do have to pee a lot right now.

574
01:22:57,946 --> 01:22:58,330
Kayla: Oh, no.

575
01:22:58,370 --> 01:22:58,962
Chris: Because of this.

576
01:22:59,026 --> 01:23:02,802
Kayla: Oh, no. It helps make sure that your urinary tract system is working.

577
01:23:02,866 --> 01:23:04,706
Chris: Okay. All right. So low. Expect, actually.

578
01:23:04,738 --> 01:23:04,882
Tyler Keeling: Yeah.

579
01:23:04,906 --> 01:23:07,738
Chris: I mean, like, we just talked about the comfort thing, right? Like, this is negative.

580
01:23:07,794 --> 01:23:08,714
Kayla: You might get yelled at.

581
01:23:08,762 --> 01:23:09,362
Chris: Negative harm.

582
01:23:09,426 --> 01:23:13,364
Kayla: A man who loves bacon a lot, right?

583
01:23:13,412 --> 01:23:26,420
Chris: Some. Some jackass on the Internet might be like you, but if you're okay with. With some fucking neckbeard being a bitch, then I would say the expected harm is negative because it brings those small comforts.

584
01:23:26,460 --> 01:23:28,508
Kayla: You might get a cavity. Just floss extra.

585
01:23:28,564 --> 01:23:32,236
Chris: You should. You should brush your teeth, and then you won't. Presence of ritual.

586
01:23:32,388 --> 01:23:34,732
Kayla: That's all this is. Baby Barrett. That's the whole thing.

587
01:23:34,876 --> 01:23:54,524
Chris: That's. The entire thing is like, ooh, it's fall now. I can smell it. Niche within society. Absolutely not anti niche. If it's anything, it's a regular business. Yeah, antifactuality doesn't seem very high to me. No, I mean, I guess it was, like, using fake pumpkin flavor.

588
01:23:54,652 --> 01:23:58,996
Kayla: They never said it was a pumpkin flavored latte. They said it was a pumpkin spice flavored latte.

589
01:23:59,068 --> 01:23:59,492
Chris: That's true.

590
01:23:59,556 --> 01:24:08,252
Kayla: That was literally, the people who were like, it doesn't have pumpkin in it are idiots. Sorry, that's rude. But, I mean, the people who were saying there's no pumpkin in it were.

591
01:24:08,276 --> 01:24:09,904
Chris: Simply folks who wanted to do it.

592
01:24:09,972 --> 01:24:19,032
Kayla: Denigrate the thing it's not supposed to, and weren't even denigrating the thing for the thing that it was saying. Like, it wasn't saying, this is a pumpkin flavor latte. It's a pumpkin spice flavored latte.

593
01:24:19,096 --> 01:24:19,368
Chris: Right?

594
01:24:19,424 --> 01:24:23,920
Kayla: If you're going, did you know it doesn't even have pumpkin in it? You're dumber than the person drinking it.

595
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:27,808
Chris: There's no pumpkin flavor in the spice that you are putting into your pumpkin pie recipe.

596
01:24:27,904 --> 01:24:31,400
Kayla: Come on, man. It's not a pumpkin pie latte. Get out of here.

597
01:24:31,480 --> 01:24:40,208
Chris: All right. I'm gonna call it low on antifactuality, then life consumption. Super high. That dude did a smash and grab. I can never go into that store again.

598
01:24:40,264 --> 01:24:41,560
Kayla: No, I hope.

599
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:48,208
Chris: And he could have just gone to the grocery store and gotten, like, pumpkin spice from. It probably was, like a dollar.

600
01:24:48,264 --> 01:24:49,976
Kayla: He needed it to feed his family.

601
01:24:50,128 --> 01:25:06,540
Chris: But to Tyler's point, though, like this, you know, potential secret recipe, proprietary blend. So I guess if that's, like, what you really want, then what else can you do, right? All right. High on consumption of life, dogmatic beliefs.

602
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:08,376
Kayla: I wouldn't say high.

603
01:25:08,528 --> 01:25:26,712
Chris: I'm gonna say low. But here's the thing. When we inevitably switcheroo this and say that the cult is the backlash, I'm gonna say it is high because the cult is, like, anything that's pumpkin is wrong. Anything that has pumpkin in it is a sign of decline, of moral decay and decadence.

604
01:25:26,736 --> 01:25:28,180
Kayla: Now give me my raw meat.

605
01:25:29,090 --> 01:25:40,610
Chris: Right? So low if we're talking PSL, high if we're talking backlash. Chain of victims. No, I don't know. I think I've gotten recruited into this thing.

606
01:25:40,730 --> 01:25:46,010
Kayla: Are you a victim? How have you gotten recruited by. You got by Starbucks, not by somebody.

607
01:25:46,050 --> 01:26:00,446
Chris: Else at the point in college, my college girlfriend was like, hey, have you ever had a frappuccino? And I was like, no. And then she gave me a frappuccino, and now I love Frappuccino's. Ergo, you didn't do anything before you got to college? No, I didn't do anything.

608
01:26:00,478 --> 01:26:01,518
Kayla: You didn't do anything.

609
01:26:01,614 --> 01:26:04,854
Chris: I was the most boring. I'm still boring. But I was even more boring as.

610
01:26:04,862 --> 01:26:06,686
Kayla: A child chatting out a frappuccino.

611
01:26:06,838 --> 01:26:16,718
Chris: Well, okay, but don't forget I'm old. So, like, me going into college was 1999. Starbucks hadn't even been, like, frappuccinos were, like, two years old at that point. Oh, my God, I'm so old.

612
01:26:16,774 --> 01:26:17,490
Kayla: I know.

613
01:26:20,190 --> 01:26:28,400
Chris: All right, so chain of victims probably know safe or unsafe exit. I don't think it's safe to stop having dsls. I think you get the jiggies.

614
01:26:28,510 --> 01:26:37,332
Kayla: I think that the christian girls will come after you with their floppy hats. You will be hosting to smack you upon your knuckles.

615
01:26:37,516 --> 01:27:04,944
Chris: All right, but again, here, let's reverse it. If you are in the hater camp and you drink a PSL, that doesn't sound safe. That sounds like people are gonna be like, shame, shame. And then you'll be ostracized. Then they're gonna go home behind closed door. They're gonna go to a bathroom in the airport, and they're gonna. They're gonna suck down that pumpkin spice latte like there's no tomorrow because it's delicious, Kayla, and everybody fucking knows it.

616
01:27:04,992 --> 01:27:05,592
Kayla: Yeah.

617
01:27:05,736 --> 01:27:11,620
Chris: All right, so pumpkin spice fandom. Is it a cult or is it just weird?

618
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:13,752
Kayla: I think it's just weird.

619
01:27:13,856 --> 01:27:16,168
Chris: I think it's just weird. What about the backlash?

620
01:27:16,264 --> 01:27:19,152
Kayla: I'm gonna denigrate it as a cult because I don't like them.

621
01:27:19,296 --> 01:27:23,624
Chris: Right. The same way that they're doing with pumpkin spice. I don't like it. It's a kind of.

622
01:27:23,632 --> 01:27:28,024
Kayla: I mean, they don't have a charismatic leader. They don't have. They're not niche within society.

623
01:27:28,192 --> 01:27:30,352
Chris: What about the guy that wrote the fuck pumpkin spicer?

624
01:27:30,456 --> 01:27:46,176
Kayla: He's definitely not the leader. Don't give him that much credit. They definitely have a presence of ritual. They definitely have dogmatic beliefs. They definitely have chain of victims. Unsafe exit. So I think it is safer to say. I think that you could say no, but I'm gonna say yes.

625
01:27:46,288 --> 01:27:57,384
Chris: All right, so pumpkin spice. Just weird haters of pumpkin spice. I'm sorry, you guys are an occult. If you disagree, we're on Twitter ultra. Just weird.

626
01:27:57,512 --> 01:27:58,848
Kayla: Call your local deprogrammer.

627
01:27:58,904 --> 01:28:04,860
Chris: Talk about it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. We can get you deprogrammed. You're just brainwashed. It's okay.

628
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:13,368
Kayla: Thank you for my pumpkin spice latte this morning, Chris. It made doing this episode all the sweeter.

629
01:28:13,504 --> 01:28:39,530
Chris: And if you guys need a pick me up, I do recommend the pumpkin spice latte or, you know, anything that just gives you that feeling of coziness and fall. You know, we need these small comforts. So that's how I'm tying it back into theme of this season. This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this is something pumpkin spicy culture, just a bit. I.