S4E10 - I Didn't Know it Was Wrong[tm]! (how abusers react to accountability)

0:00 Chris: Hey, listeners. Chris and Kayla here from Cult or just weird? The show is actually on vacation this week because we are on vacation this week IRL, but we still wanted to share an episode with you. Kayla: Back in season three, we produced several episodes covering abuse behind the scenes in amish communities. As we had these conversations with people who lived those experiences, we kept coming back to how familiar this all felt, even coming from such a quote unquote foreign community. Chris: I had experienced and observed similar issues in the video game industry, and it was the same for Kayla. Working in the tv and film industry. One of the common refrains that abusers repeated over and over across the board was, I didn't know it was wrong at first.

0:42 Kayla: We didn't understand why such a similarity existed across such disparate communities. And so we talked about it and released the episode as bonus content on our Patreon. But this conversation is just as relevant now as it was last year. Chris: We came away from the discussion with a little bit more clarity, and we. Chris: Hope that you do, too. Chris: If you'd like to join our Patreon to get access to all of our other bonus episodes, you can find us@patreon.com cult or just weird. We will be back with a new episode on our main feed on Tuesday, August 23. Kayla: Enjoy.

1:30 Chris: So welcome to the bonus content for the latest episode where we interviewed Lizzie Hershberger. One of the things that Kayla and I wanted to we're actually recording this at the same time. Like we just finished doing the recording for our reaction. Kayla: Don't lie. We're in the middle of recording. Chris: Okay, excuse me, we're in the right, we're almost at the end. Kayla: We're in the middle of recording. Chris: And we said to ourselves, we want to talk about this thing. We don't feel like it belongs necessarily in the flow of the episode, but it would make good bonus content. So here we are. So one of the things that Lizzie and I talk about is the whole thing of like, okay, here you have the video game industry way over here, or even, let's say the entertainment industry, because it happens in Hollywood, too, where when somebody gets caught or faces consequences, the mantra is, oh, I didn't know it was wrong. This was okay. When I was growing up, when I was coming up, this was okay. I didn't know this was wrong. And then you hear the exact same thing way over here in the plain communities in Minnesota with no technology, you know, totally contrast to the entertainment industry.

2:38 Chris: You hear the exact same things like, I didn't know this was wrong. This is just how, this is how the Amish work, man. Like, this is how we do things here. It's different, sure. But I didn't know it was wrong. So you hear these same exact things, which, because it's so disparate, really. I don't know. It really makes you. It's like a huge red flag, like, what's going on? Kayla: Right. Why is this here so such a common refrain? Chris: Yeah. So I don't know. I guess I just want to kind of get your thoughts and maybe spit out my. Maybe I can mansplain what it is. Kayla: If you mansplain, I'm leaving. I mean, I don't have a good reason why that seems to be such a common response. I think. I think it's a really great cover, or perceived as a really great cover by somebody who's finally being, you know, exposed or accused. I mean, you know, it's what you're supposed to say when a cop pulls you over. Why did I pull you over? I have no idea, officer.

3:35 Chris: Because I was doing 90 in a 30. Kayla: You don't say that to the police officer. You say, I'm sorry. I have no idea. Chris: So you're saying that it's like, it's just purely, just like a deny, deny as, like, a strategy. Kayla: I think that it. Okay. I think that it depends. I think that I don't even know how much of a kernel of truth there is to it for some people. There probably is for some people, but I don't actually know. It does. It just feels it's such an infantilizing thing to say about oneself. I feel like it just. Chris: Yes, that's true. Kayla: I didn't know. You really didn't, you really didn't know it was wrong to force somebody to have sex with you? You really didn't know that was.

4:17 Chris: Wrong or like, some of the stuff that Weinstein did. Kayla: Yeah, I think about work in Hollywood, and I think about how many abusers have been exposed, not enough, but how many abusers have been exposed and how so often the refrain is that, like, I didn't know it was wrong or, you know, I came up in a different time, I grew up in a different time, or, you know, this is what I was brought up with. This is what it was like when I was working. And I just don't believe it. I don't believe it. If Harvey Weinstein's response to this is like, well, I didn't know. I mean, I know that a lot of his response, like, some of this didn't happen. And also, the response of a lot of these abusers is, I didn't know it was wrong. And it's just like, I didn't know. Chris: It was wrong to masturbate into a plant at work, at a co worker. What the hell? Kayla: You didn't know it was wrong to tell somebody that they are fired if they don't do sexual favors for you? Like, you really didn't know it was wrong to corner vulnerable women in your hotel room?

5:08 Chris: How was Scott Rudin supposed to know that? He's not supposed to drive someone to suicide. Kayla: Like, that's the thing, Scott. If. And I don't know what Scott Rudin's defense is. If the Scott Rudins of the world are saying I didn't know it was wrong to throw things at my employees, to scream at them, to have such high employee turnover that I'm training a new assistant every three months, if I didn't know it was wrong to force my assistants to not shower, to not go home, to never eat, to never sleep, if you're saying I didn't know that was wrong, I don't believe you. I think that what I didn't know that was wrong is really saying is I thought I was allowed to do this. Not, I didn't know it was wrong. It's I thought I was allowed to treat you like shit.

5:48 Kayla: I thought I was allowed to be this asshole in a position of power, and I thought I was allowed to do the abuse. I thought society said I was allowed to do the abuse. It's not you saying I didn't know it was wrong. You knew it was wrong and you were okay with it because you got off on it or you got power out of it. Chris: Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I think it's actually hiding the true statement, which is I didn't know there were consequences, which is exactly what you said. Right? Like, it's not that you didn't know it was wrong. It's that you didn't know you get in trouble for it. Kayla: Right? So, I mean, and for some of these people. Sorry to analyze, but for some of these people, the fact that it is quote unquote wrong is part of the abuse. I really do think that somebody like Louis CK, whose whole thing was cornering women who were in subordinate positions to him in terms of, like, the hierarchy of the comedy world, cornering them in his office and taking his penis out of and masturbating in front of them, part of that whole dynamic was, I'm getting to I can do this. I can do this thing. And I like that. I like that this person can't say no. I like that this person. I like that this is wrong. I like that this is wrong.

6:49 Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Cause, like, I, you know, it's wrong. Kayla: To jerk off in front of your. To jerk off in front of anyone who doesn't want you to jerk off in front of them. Chris: And I struggle to comprehend the desire to do that without invoking. Yeah, he was getting off on the wrongness of it. Kayla: Right. Chris: So I think you have a real good point there. Kayla: It also makes me think of, again, just staying in the Hollywood world. It makes me think of, like, the abusers that I know, the abusers that I've crossed paths with in my life, who, you know, who were bosses, who were this, that, and the other, who were abusive in these ways, and also had a very public facing front of, like, I'm a feminist, or I'm for the little guy, or I'm for the underdog. So, you know, it's wrong because you have a. And that goes for a lot of these Hollywood abusers. You have a front facing public Persona of, like, power to the people. You know, everyone is somebody, let's fight for the little guy. We gotta raise people up. You know, women. Women are powerful. I'm a feminist, blah. You know, women are the future. Yada, yada, yada.

7:48 Chris: Raise money for all the liberal candidates. Kayla: And then you go into your office and you try to fuck your female employees. You fire them if they don't have sex with you. You treat your interns like shit. You throw things like, you know that it's wrong because you have a front facing Persona of what you think is right. Chris: It's like, not actually. That suggests that not only do you know it's wrong, it's like, you know that there are consequences, too. So it's like, even that part's not. Even. That part's disingenuous. Even though, like, I didn't know there are consequences. It's actually not even that. It's. I didn't know I would get caught. Kayla: If you didn't know it was wrong, you wouldn't try to hide it. And so I can't. I don't necessarily. I don't know what I can say about the Amish because I don't have that much understanding of it. And it does seem that in some ways, people do try to hide the abuse and in some ways that they don't. Like parents aren't trying to hide the fact that they, you know, have these abusive relationships with their children in terms of control. You know, Lizzie's abuser tried to hide the, you know, quote unquote, tried to hide the fact that he was having sex with her. But everybody in the community knew.

8:46 Kayla: But it does make me think about, like, the catholic church, in which I don't know if these priests that, you know, how if this system of priests abusing altar boys, if the argument is, well, I didn't know that was wrong. Is that something that comes up? Because that's clearly, you knew it was wrong because you're trying to hide it, and the church tries to hide it. Chris: I don't even, like, that's. I get really confused with this because anytime and when I say this, I mean open secrets, because I'm like, okay, you're hiding it, but you're also not. Kayla: Right. Chris: That's like, what happened with Lizzie's abuser that you just described, right. Is like, he was raping her, but also, everybody knew about it, but also, he was trying to hide it. But also, everybody knew about, like, I just get really confused with that and same thing with it with the priests. Like, it's like, oh, yeah. Oh, don't be an altar boy. Oh, not that priest anyway. Yeah. And it's just like, so is it wrong or not? Like, same thing with, like, Cosby. Right. Until, like, he finally faced consequences. Right, right. It was like, oh, don't be in the room with him. And it's just like, so, is it wrong? We know that he's doing this, right enough to joke about it, enough to be like, you know, don't go be a mod for that amish guy.

10:00 Chris: Don't go be an altar boy for that priest. Ha ha. Kayla: Right? Chris: I just. The open, secret thing just, I'm doing, all I'm able to do is, like, sit here and be like. Cause I don't. I cannot explain it. Kayla: Right. And that's. But that goes back to the, like, I didn't know what was wrong is not saying what the person means. They're saying it's either, like, I knew it was wrong, but I thought that wrongness was okay in our, like, societal hierarchy, or I knew it was wrong, but I thought that didn't mean I couldn't do it, or I knew it was wrong, but, I mean, we all do, right? We all do this. Chris: Boys will be boys. Kayla: Like, boys will be boys is kind of a similar thing, too. I didn't know it was wrong because if boys will be boys means this activity is, it's okay. It's bad, but it's okay for the boys to do.

10:50 Chris: Right. Like, it's saying, this is, like, this is. This is considered wrong, but we're. It's sanctioned. It's sanctioned badness. Like, what does that mean? Kayla: Right? Chris: I don't understand. Kayla: I didn't know it was wrong. It just kind of feels like I didn't know that you would tell me to stop doing this. Yeah, I didn't know that. That. Chris: But again, if you keep it secret. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Then you did know that it's. Kayla: But you're supposed to keep it secret. Like, that's the thing. It's like, that's why it's a mind fuck. Yeah. The society says, don't do it. But that's what it makes me think about the stuff were talking about with Lizzie before about, like, are you a Christian? Just because you go to church, blah, blah. Figure out how I'm trying to say this. It's like, so with the church, it's like there's an acknowledgement that these rules are going to be broken, kind of like, there's this acknowledgement that the rules are going to be broken, but you have to break them in this specific way. Like, well, everyone's, you know, listening to the Mallard duck and everyone's.

11:49 Chris: Yeah, as long as you call it Mallard duck. Kayla: Everyone's fucking their mods, like, as a. Chris: Radio, by the way, if you. Kayla: As long as you don't get caught, or as long as you don't break the rules in the wrong way, then it's, like, sanctioned. Chris: You're breaking my brain. Kayla: And that's what it feels like with this. Like, with the Hollywood abusers. That's what it feels like. Well, but I'm just doing the thing that we've all said is wrong but okay to do. I broke the rules in the right way, so why am I in trouble? Chris: It's like the secret code. There's, like, the ordnung, which is like, the upfront rules, the public rules, and then there's, like, the secret meta rules that you are allowed to break. The ordnung or the, you know, whatever we in the english world would call it. You are allowed to. You're totally allowed to rape people at work in Hollywood as long as you follow these meta rules for raping people. Like, it's just, you can be Harvey.

12:42 Kayla: Weinstein and fascinating, trying to have sex with everybody and doing all of that abuse. But if you're making movies where women are empowered and you're showing up at, like, liberal democratic galas and raising money and hanging out with the right people, then it's okay. And that's why I think people get so mad at this stuff, particularly with the Hollywood abusers, is because of that hypocrisy. Yeah, the hypocrisy is. It's a double slap. Chris: Yeah, I really like this. Okay, so this is the first time I have felt. Not utterly. I'm still confused, but, like, the public rule set and then secret meta rules is the first time I've felt even, like, a little bit of understanding of that. So thank you for deploying that on the. On the podcast.

13:29 Kayla: You're welcome. Chris: Thank you for being smart on the podcast. Now only our patrons will hear this. Kayla: Do you think that there is ever, like, do you think that there are ever cases or examples or actions in which somebody saying, I didn't know it was wrong is true? Probably, I think. Chris: But again, it just. Okay, so when I say true, you really have to unpack what wrong means. Like. Like we did here. Like, does wrong meand. I. I think this was morally against something that I personally believe. Does wrong mean I thought they were going to. I didn't think there'd be consequences. Does wrong mean I broke the secret rules? Like, what exactly does it mean? Like, I think depending on how you define it, you could probably say that's true for anyone. If it's. I didn't think I would find myself breaking the secret rules.

14:17 Kayla: Right. Chris: I think anyone can say that I didn't know I was wrong. Kayla: Right. Chris: But if it's like, I actually didn't know that this was wrong, this is like, some changing societal circumstances that I have not been able to keep up with, that probably has happened. Kayla: I think it's absolutely possible for white people to be so ignorant of absolute how ingrained racism and white supremacy is in our society that they've never stopped to think like, oh, this is wrong, and they've never been told that it's wrong in any sort of capacity, that, yeah, it really does slip their mind. And it's important to remember that the racism. Racism isn't just, like, the act of being racist. It's also having the privilege to never have to analyze that shit. And then you can just, like, go through your life being racist and not even realize it. I didn't know. I didn't know I did something wrong. Well, but that's. That doesn't mean you're not racist. It doesn't mean you didn't do a racist thing.

15:08 Chris: I even think that. And we're sort of tangenting here, but I do want to reply to this because I think, and this is just me as a. As a white person who is not an expert in this field, but I feel like the structural racism is more, as much today is much more important even than the, like, I personally do not like black people. Like, that's. That's like a caricature that I think we all sort of think, oh, that's what racism is. But I think it's actually much less that and much more like redlining and freeways and things like that. The prison. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The prison industrial complex. So I think it's much more about that. It's like the whole, like, racism without racists thing. Right. And, like, being able to realize that.

15:49 Chris: And I definitely think that is a good point where I didn't know it was wrong. Could be a thing where, like, you don't really. You've never been taught about the structural stuff. You've never been taught about redlining. Kayla: Right. Chris: And we are still actively trying to prevent people from learning about that in this country as a. As a political football to get people elected. So you are at a disadvantage not learning about those things. And why do you think they don't want you to learn about those things? Because that's what keeps them in power. Anyway, we're getting way. We're going all over the place here, even though it's all sort of the same, like, abuse system of control. Like Lizzie said in the episode, really, it comes back down to the control. Actually, here's one more thing before we sign off for this, is do you think that abuse is a tool to maintain control?

16:40 Kayla: I knew you were gonna ask me this. Chris: Or do you? Well, I wasn't gonna ask you on the show, but I'm gonna ask you for the special patrons. Kayla: Right. Chris: Do you think abuse is a tool for control, or do you think that control is the thing that allows you to abuse? Kayla: You and I have talked about this. We have off here, off the mic, and I think that my answer, my real answer would have us sitting here for the next 45,000 years. Chris: Oh. Oh, God. That's a lot of content. Kayla: I think it's both. I think it's cyclical. I think that. I think that in a lot of ways, the systems that we have created and institutions we have created that allow people to have power have been shaped on the backs of abuse tactics. And so it both allows abusers to rise above and also incentivizes abuse tactics in those maybe are not necessarily abusive. Does that make sense?

17:46 Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: I don't have good examples for that, but it just kind of feels like, it feels like this system that we have built, it incentivizes people who are abusive to get ahead, and it allows people who are abusive to get ahead and then incentivizes people to utilize abuse to get ahead. Does that make sense? Chris: It does, but I would say that doesn't feel like it's particular to the system we have built. And when you say that, I'm assuming you mean, like, you know, like modern western capitalism slash, you know, post colonial society. I think that's just something that's endemic to most society. Like, it's just, it's like a. It's more of, like a human nature thing.

18:28 Kayla: Right. What I literally mean is the systems that people create. Chris: Okay, then you. Kayla: The ways that we organize ourselves into society. So it's not. Yeah. I don't just mean us in the United States or in the western world. I just mean the systems that I. I know about can tend towards this. I don't want to say that every system that humans come up with because I don't know. I don't know what's happening, like, in three quarters of the world. Chris: I know. Right. Kayla: I've been exposed to. Chris: The reason I say that is because the way that I have, and I think you probably will predict what I'm going to say, because, again, we've talked about this off show, but the way that I have started to think about it is like a feedback loop.

19:12 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Because I've wondered about this for a while. I'm like, is it a or is it b? Like, was it chicken or is it egg? And I think that it's just simply like, because one thing enables the other, you can get into this feedback loop like we've talked about on the show before, where it just gets, it feeds back into itself and gets worse and worse. A small seed of abuse tactic can give you more power. And when you have more power, you are. You are enabled to abuse more. And then when you abuse more, you are enabled to have more power. Back and forth, back and forth. So that's what it feels like to me. Why we keep seeing it and why it's kind of impossible to answer. Chicken or egg is because I think it's just both. One feeds back into the other.

19:54 Chris: And I think that's why something like what we talked about on the episode with Lizzy, even a small amount of accountability is like, a little grain of sand in that machine that could maybe kind of start grinding it down. Feedback loops work in both directions, as we have said on the show. Kayla: It just makes me think about why we, you know, why a lot of people will talk about police. Like, why we'll say Acab. Like, why we'll say, you know, all cops are bad, or why the police. Why the police system is bad. And, yeah, it's not necessarily because we're saying that every single police officer is a meanie. What we're saying is that a system was built that incentivizes certain behavior and attracts certain behavior and then stamps out any contrary behavior. So, unfortunately, our police system was built upon white supremacy and was built upon keeping black people in a certain strata. And who is that going to attract? Who is that system going to attract? And who does it continue to attract today? And now we have a system that was built by those kinds of abuse tactics and those kinds of.

21:07 Chris: It's an inherited some of those things. Kayla: And it disincentivizes the good in people. It disincentivizes the people who maybe want to expose the abusers. Like, when you are a police officer and you go, I want to, you know, this isn't good over here. That gets stamped out. Chris: Right? Kayla: So that feedback loop gets to the point where we're in the crisis that we're in today. Chris: Right. Right. It heats up until we're here. We are. So how do we. How do we fix that? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: All right. Kayla: This has been cultivated. I don't know. Chris: Are you guys socialism?

21:48 Kayla: I have no idea. Chris: Something hopeful. No, I listen. Okay. Kayla: The hopeful thing is what we're talking lizzies of the world. Chris: Sure. Yes. Be the lizzies of the world, for sure. And also, we're just talking about this in terms of, like, we wanted to do some analysis in the bonus content, and we are doing set analysis. I don't think we're necessarily saying, like, all feedback loops go to hell, and then you're in the hell that we're in. Yes. Yes. We're all in hell, for sure. But remember, feedback loops work in both directions. And small things that lead to big, bad things can also be small things that lead to big, good things. So always keep that in mind. This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this has been culture, just weird's bonus content.