S3E9 - The Blue Curtains (abuse in the Amish community)

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Chris: I was thinking this time, for our opening banter, what if. What if I just pretended that I'm just casually asking you about a tv show or a game or a book or something?

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Kayla: What.

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Chris: What are you watching on tv right now, Kayla?

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Kayla: What am I supposed to say?

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Chris: I don't know. What are you watching? What?

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Kayla: You're saying the banter is just us talking about me watching? Hey, Arnold.

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Chris: Yeah. Okay, so you're watching hey, Arnold.

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Kayla: I don't want to talk about hey Arnold. No?

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Chris: All right, well, I've been watching Ted lasso. Finally. Had to. Had to crack that one out of the in case of emergency glass this week.

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Kayla: I already watched it.

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Chris: Yeah. Good for you. Well, it's pretty good. Great. Good banter, everybody.

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Kayla: I didn't know that were doing this.

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Chris: I just. I'm just pulling it out of the air. There's no plan.

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Kayla: No, see, I want banter to be about, like, let's talk about nuclear semiotics.

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Chris: Okay, that's valid, too. If I said, hey, Kayla, what have you been reading about lately?

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Kayla: Nuclear semiotics?

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Chris: So is that. Can we do that in the next, like, 20 seconds or.

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Kayla: Yeah. Nuclear semiotics is the study of how the hell do we warn future generations about where we have dumped nuclear waste? In a non linguistic way?

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Chris: Yeah. Not just future generations, but, like, what if somebody in 10,000 years from now that doesn't even resemble our culture stumbles across nuclear waste? How can we protect them with information, if at all? It's super fascinating. There's a good 99% invisible episode about.

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Kayla: It, and the Wikipedia is.

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Chris: Check it out, man. So that sounds really fascinating. Kayla, I'm glad that you've been doing. I mean, we talked about it. Yeah, it was fun.

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Kayla: I made you stop Ted Lasso so I could verbatim read you the Wikipedia page.

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Chris: Yeah, I won't spoil Ted lasso. But, you guys, if you have money, pay for it. If you don't, go to Pirate Bay and torrent. It. It's a good show. It's. It's positive. It's a. It's very healing. So, anyway, my name's Chris.

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Kayla: What are you?

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Chris: I'm. I'm a human being.

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Kayla: That's true. Although sometimes I question, why don't we do it?

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Chris: Why don't we do, like, you're an alien? Oh, maybe I'm throwaway alien. No. So why don't I. Why don't. Why don't we do it? Like, I say my name, you say your name. Then I say my credentials. Then you say your credentials.

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Kayla: Can I say your name?

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Chris: All right, well, I did. My name's Chris. My name's Kayla, and I am. I don't like that. I don't like it. I think you do it the way you thought. Yeah, you were right initially. All right, I'm gonna cut all this stuff about you being right. I'm Chris, and I am a game designer and data scientist, and now I am a podcast host and interested in cults.

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Kayla: My name is Kayla, and I am a tv writer. And guess what?

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Chris: What?

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Kayla: I'm also interested in.

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Chris: Oh, my God.

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Kayla: I know.

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Chris: That's a coincidence. We should get married. Welcome to culture. Just weird. This is where we talk about our said interest in cults. Okay, I have business. We've been talking for a while, actually, about doing a shout out for all of our patrons because that was on the benefits list, and we never got around to it, and we're finally going to do it today. Going forward, we will be shouting out new five dollar tier patrons. But today we wanted to call out and thank everybody.

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Kayla: So thank you to Rebecca Kirsch, Pam Westergard, Alyssa Odom. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

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Chris: And Michaela Evans, Ryan Quinn, and Paul Sweeney. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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Kayla: Erin Bratu, Liz T. Leanne Cole. Thank you for your support.

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Chris: Samantha Bailiff, Katie Larimer, and Fioh. Thank you for your support.

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Kayla: Heather Anspach, Jessica Sankat, and propagander. Thank you for your support.

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Chris: Kelly Smith Upton, zero Ceres, and Anna Krasner. Thank you for your support.

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Kayla: Nancy Carlson, Carly Dobson, and Benjamin Herman. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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Chris: And finally, Ali Alderson and Annika Rahman. Thank you so much for supporting us. And thank you to all of our patrons for supporting us. We really appreciate it, and we really appreciate that you've been willing to give us feedback and listen to our other stuff. I feel like our patreon at this point is almost kind of more like a content overflow, you know, because, like, we always have so much that we want to say on all these episodes, and then we just. We shunt off the stuff that's. And we prune it. We prune the main episode, and then the pruned bits sort of turn into their own little mini episodes on Patreon.

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Kayla: You can believe that our three hour episodes, I know, are pruned.

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Chris: Any Kayla, anybody that knows us, knows that we can, like, we can literally yap for hours and hours. We are insufferable. But anyway, thank you to our patrons, and also, thank you to all of our lovely listeners who aren't patrons.

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Kayla: But we're gonna beat you up.

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Chris: Yeah. No. Give us money, you pieces of shit. No, but. Kidding. Remember, I only ever have one action item that I want from our listeners, and that is just listen and enjoy the show. Speaking of the show, let's get to it, shall we? Kayla, today's episode is a little different than normal, right?

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Kayla: I don't want. I'm not reading what you wrote.

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Chris: What? You have to read what I wrote.

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Kayla: I'm not doing it.

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Chris: You must. What are you talking about?

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Kayla: You wrote a book for us today.

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Chris: Yeah, and I sent it to you for approval, dude.

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Kayla: Yeah. You shouldn't have done that.

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Chris: Read what I wrote. Do it.

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Kayla: No.

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Chris: You are fired. Oh.

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Kayla: I mean a union. You can't fire me. That's right, Chris. Thank you for that awkwardly forced transition. You are not a great podcaster.

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Chris: No, this is where you are a great podcast and very handsome.

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Kayla: I, Kayla, have to say this on the podcast because it's written down. I don't know who wrote that you suck and are bad, but someone did. I think it's probably the guy who wrote this script. No, I'm just kidding.

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Chris: Corny. I'm sorry.

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Kayla: You are a great podcaster, and you are very handsome, and I love you.

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Chris: Thanks. Ditto.

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Kayla: Where were we? Okay. Yes, the format for this episode is different today, my friends. The bottom line is we've got a sweet interview lined up. I know that we usually have an interview lined up at this point. We kind of have a lot of interviews.

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Chris: We do lots of interviews.

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Kayla: But today, the interview is actually going to be the star of the show. So we're just starting off with a little bit of context here. We cannot help ourselves when it comes to context. I think that we have learned that at this point, but the interview for today's episode is the absolute main event.

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Chris: Additionally, the episode today isn't about a particular group as it normally is. I mean, it sort of is like a tangential sort of way, which. We'll get to that. But we really wanted to center the story that our interview subject has to tell. Her name is Molly Maeve Egan, and she is the ghost writer and co author of a book called behind Blue Curtains, which tells the true life story of the other co author, Lizzie Hershberger. Lizzie grew up in the amish community, specifically the Schwarzenestruber Amish, which is the most conservative, most restrictive amish sect. We'll be talking about the story in a little more detail with Miss Egan in a moment, but I did want to comment real quick on the book. It's definitely a compelling read. And actually, I sort of gushed about it. Tamale before we started doing the interview proper.

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Chris: Should we just play a clip of that for everyone?

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Kayla: Yeah. I want everyone to see what you're like.

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Chris: Okay, let's do it.

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Kayla: Yeah. It's good to meet you. Yeah.

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Chris: Good to meet you finally.

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Kayla: Yeah, nice to meet you, too.

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Chris: Love the book. This is not the meat of the interview yet. I just want to do some intro admin stuff first. But I did want to say that the book was great. It was. We'll mention this in our show, sort of, like, you know, context bit. But it was. It was a page turner for me, for sure.

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Kayla: Oh, yeah. I very much. I used to read a lot as, like, a young person, and now as an old person, I just scroll Twitter too much, and I do not have the same attention span. But I was, like, sat down to read the book and my God, I'm actually reading a book.

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Chris: Yeah. I read more than 140 characters. It was pretty.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: That's such a compliment because I get it. I am the same way. It's a huge compliment. So thank you for reading.

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Kayla: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris: And it kind of. For me, it kind of started out as, like, got to do my homework, but then as I got into it, I was, like, reading it more for, like, because I got to see what happens next, and I gotta, you know, I gotta know. And I also want to say, because I don't think we have an interview question about this, but I really appreciate. I don't know, maybe I'll try to splice this in somewhere. But I really appreciated the tightrope that you walked with Lizzie's perspective when she was younger, because I felt like I was, like, sharing that perspective of, like, what is really going on here? Like, is this abuse? Is it not? Is it? And then, like, I sort of, like, realized along with her when she realized, and I just really appreciated that.

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Chris: Like, it made, like, putting me in her shoes, in that sense, was. Was really impressive. So I would say that, too.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: That's one of the best compliments I can ever receive. And you said it very eloquently, so thank you. It means a lot to a writer when people see the nuances of the work.

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Chris: Yeah, I really. And I really felt that part, too, because at the time. Yeah, I remember kind of going like, is this bad? I'm so confused. And then later on, I realized I was supposed to be confused.

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Kayla: Yes, it was bad. Yeah.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It's a good question to ask because Lizzie was also asking the same questions at the same time.

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Chris: Right? Right. Yeah. Okay, so that was me fanboying about the book to miss Eganda. I know. I get all like, I really liked it when you did this thing, and I like to sound smart about reading the book.

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Kayla: Well, you read one book in your whole life, so you gotta try to milk it for all it's worth.

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Chris: Massively illiterate. But anyway, the bottom line is, if you are looking for a good read, this one actually really was a page turner for me. Just please be warned that it very well may be triggering for sexual assault and abuse survivors.

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Kayla: And so then it kind of goes without saying that the episode today will also come with a trigger warning for sexual assault and abuse survivors. We will be discussing the events of the book, so keep an eye out for that. It was while the book was. Yeah, like you said, a page turner. It was a tough read, but it was a good read. And, you know, I've started reading again, which is really nice in my life.

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Chris: And you're literate now too.

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Kayla: And I still find myself. I still find myself having a hard time with getting through some pages before I go back to twitter. But with this book, I mean, it really held my attention. I was able to go through it almost in one sitting. It just kind of kept me going.

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Chris: I think it was like two or three sittings for me, but it kept my butt glued to the couch to keep reading it.

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Kayla: So before we get started, I just want to do the barest bones of context for you guys on the Amish. So here's the summary about them from Wikipedia says good old trusty Wikipedia. The Amish are a group of traditionalist christian church fellowships with swiss, german and alsatian anabaptist origins. They are closely related to mennonite churches. The Amish are known for simple living, plain dress christian pacifism, and slowness to adopt many conveniences of modern technology with a view to not interrupt family time nor replace face to face conversations whenever possible, and to maintain self sufficiency. The amish value rural life, manual labor, humility, and Galassan height, all under the auspices of living what they interpret to be God's word. End quote. Well, Chris, you might be asking yourself, what is galassenheit?

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Chris: Is it like tall glass?

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Kayla: Yeah, glass and height like a really.

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Chris: Tall glass is a galassenheight.

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Kayla: Glassenheit is a Pennsylvania Dutch word, basically meaning submitting to the will of God. And Pennsylvania Dutch is actually a whole other language that is spoken by many amish and mennonite sects. So, yes, a lot of amish people are literally bilinguals, speaking both their own Pennsylvania Dutch as well as American English. Pennsylvania Dutch is also called Pennsylvania German, and it derives from German via amish and mennonite immigrants, which, you know, obviously came from that part of the world. First, one of the cool things about behind blue curtains and about our. And about our interview with Miss Egan is the authenticity. And some of that authenticity comes from usage of these terms in the book and even in our interview.

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Chris: So to make sure that we're prepped, then why don't I define just a few terms that Lizzie uses in her memoir in the book? And that also came up in our interview here with Molly. First one is mem and dat. So, quite simply, that just means mom and dad. That's the word for. Mom is mem. That's the word for dad is dat. Didn't even have to look that one up, Kayla.

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Kayla: Is it dat or is it dot?

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Chris: Oh, dot. Probably dot, because it's German.

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Kayla: Yeah, I think it's mem and dot.

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Chris: It quote s like, you know, ja v. German. So dot.

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Kayla: That's absolutely what we all sound like.

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Chris: Man. Oh, that. That really changes my paradigm, because I read it as dat the whole time. D a t t. Weird. Anyway, we do hear the word mem in the interview, so I did want to define those two here. Another word is ordnung. Does that sound right?

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Or d n u n g. Okay. Ordnung. And that refers to the system of rules and laws followed by the Amish. So they have their own sort of, like, internal rules system that they follow.

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Kayla: Quick insert here. I just want to point out that ordnung is generally not written down. It's generally just, like, kind of communally understood. And I know that, like, the Amish. The individual amish churches, like, get together once a year and, like, you know, go over their ordnong and see what they want to change. But it's not written down.

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Chris: It's just the verbal tradition.

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Kayla: It's just known.

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Chris: Yeah, it's just wild.

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Kayla: It's not like. Yeah, it's literally just communally known info kind of thing.

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Chris: Geez, guys, that's intense. English. English may not sound like a vocabulary word. When you and I say English, we mean either the language we're speaking or the people of the country of England. When an amish person says English, actually, they're referring to any non amish Americans of any kind, anyone outside of their community. So an amish person would call you or me. English, for example. Next vocab word is plain communities. So at first I thought this meant when I read this and were talking about it, I thought it meant planes, you know, like wide open plains, generates white mana, grassy field, that kind of thing. No, but actually it means plane, as in simple, non ornate vanilla, that kind of thing.

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Kayla: You might hear people say, like, plain peoples or plain person or plain community.

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Chris: And that refers to amish and mennonite and scattered other communities that have a lifestyle with minimal technology and consumption. Another good vocab word is rumspringe. Did I pronounce that right?

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Kayla: I think so.

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Chris: Definitely not spelled that way.

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Kayla: No, you spelled it very wrong.

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Chris: No, I spelled it correctly. I got that. I checked for it. That's how you spell that.

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Kayla: Really?

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Chris: R u m s c h p r I n g e. Dang. Rumspringe. So many amish communities will allow the teenage members of their communities to leave the Amish for a period and experience the quote unquote english world. It's sort of like a confirmation process. Right? Like, if you like it better out there, you can totally leave.

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Kayla: And this happens because in anabaptist communities, you're not baptist, you're not baptized until you are 16 and you choose to be baptized.

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Chris: Right. That's what characterizes anabaptism. Yeah. And turns out, actually leaving is not very frequent. So I think it's something.

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Kayla: Yeah, 90% of people born into amish communities stay in amish communities. Don't quote that number. But it's very high.

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Chris: Yeah, it's a large number or a large percentage. This word actually doesn't come up in either the interview or the book. And that's because the sect that we'll be talking about, the Schwarzenstruber, is one of the few or maybe only amish communities that does not allow rumspringa in their ordnung. I just did two vocab words in one sentence there. Thank you. Finally. Mod. It's not. And then there's Mod.

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Kayla: And there's mod.

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Chris: Not that a mod is basically a maid, essentially, but like a. Like a maid on steroids.

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Kayla: I really like the name. Mod's a good name.

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Chris: Mod is a pretty good name.

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Kayla: Mod I like it. Sorry.

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Chris: If you went on Reddit and moderated, you'd be mod the mod.

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Kayla: You'd be mod the mod. Good job. Okay, but this is not about name mods. No, this is about mods, which are maids.

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Chris: And we should probably get away from the joking because this is like, where things start getting a little. Well, you'll see later. Bad. But anyway, it's like a maid on steroids. As I said, amish children are only educated through the 8th grade, and when girls reach this age, which is around 14, they are frequently sent off to be live in servants. You could probably even call the servitude indentured, since the compensation is basically just like room and board, plus some minor allowance, which itself may only go to the. Even to the parents. Mods take care of almost everything for their employers. Let's call them doing all manner and depth of breadth of chores. And of course, because they're amish, they have lots of chores to do because, again, no technology.

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Chris: And this is expected to train them for the only life track available for most amish women, which is mothering and homemaking. Alrighty. I think they'll actually cover us pretty well for the interview. I'll also link a Pennsylvania Dutch dictionary in the show notes.

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Kayla: And without further ado, please listen to Cultur just weird's interview with the co author of behind Blue Curtains, Molly Maeve Egandae. So today we have a special guest on our show, Molly. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell them a little bit about your background?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I'm Molly may vegan. I am a trauma informed writer, former investigative reporter, and sexual assault survivor from Brooklyn, New York, back when it was still Brooklyn. And I knew nothing about the Amish before this book. And that's what that about sums me up.

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Kayla: Yeah, that's definitely one of our questions. We'll get to it. But I did want to know, like, yeah, what did you know about the Amish going into this? And now what do you know about. Absolutely nothing, I guess kind of. Before we get into that, can you explain or expand a little bit on what it means to be a trauma? I think you said trauma informed writer.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yes. So trauma informed is a term we're just starting to hear. Thankfully, it's been around for a long time. But when we talk about trauma informed, for example, we would like our journalists to be trauma informed so that when they interview a survivor or talk about these issues, which is more and more in demand, that they are being sensitive to the survivor and their stories, that they're not triggering a survivor or telling their story in a disrespectful way, because that's been the history. And so to be trauma informed really means to be aware of the survivor's perspective and to educate people in that empowered way.

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Kayla: I love that.

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Chris: I'm glad that's becoming more you said it's becoming more common.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yes. I think several years ago, nobody knew what trauma informed meant, and they didn't understand psychosomatic symptoms or PTSD. And today, after years of fighting my own fight in that system with doctors, now I'm hearing it more. Well, maybe this is psychosomatic, or maybe this has to do with your trauma. And they're right, and I'm all for it. So I want to continue to educate.

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Chris: Is that how you got into doing trauma informed writing is your own experience?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yes. I've been a writer all my life. My mother was a writer and a champion of writers, and I really just wanted to write young adult fantasy fiction. But unfortunately, I am a survivor of childhood trauma and sexual assault. And I think for any empowered survivor, it does really shape who you become. That's where my power lies, is to help survivors become empowered and share their stories. And I had to learn it by doing it myself.

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Chris: And before that, you were, correct me if I'm wrong. And you were doing investigative journalism.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah. So I started out by walking into editors offices and pitching crazy stories, and they said yes back then. And then I became a police beat reporter in Kingston, New York, which is a small city, and I just couldn't stay at my desk. I would go out and go to the jail first and get the interview with the shooter or go out looking for dead bodies. And it. It just. And also being from Brooklyn, it really gave me the ability to talk to anyone and look for details and find out things that no one else could find out. They also underestimated me because I was a woman, and I was told I was hired because I was a pretty fish, and I won them their first investigative award. So that. That's what you. Pretty fish. Yeah.

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Chris: Awesome. Yeah.

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Kayla: The pretty fish who's going around and finding the dead bodies and talking to shooters and, I mean. Sounds like you're really pretty curious, fish. Yeah. Really in the muck with all of that. Yeah. And I guess there's. There's definitely part of me that is envious of that part of your background, just being able to kind of be inside the story in that way. And it's something that we kind of talk about a lot on our show and deal with as we do this is there, especially now, there's a lot of disinformation out there in the world. And when we, as we're talking about cults and groups that maybe border on cults, a lot of that disinformation is it comes up a lot, and we as we're not journalists. We're podcasters.

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Kayla: But we're kind of basically always feeling this mountain of pressure to make sure that we're not presenting disinformation, we're presenting kind of that high quality information, correcting ourselves when we don't. So someone with that kind of investigative background, can you talk a little bit about what kind of, like, fact checking goes into the work that you do and writing a book like this?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Well, I will say that at the time, it did not feel glamorous or even useful. When I was a police beat reporter in a small city, I wanted to be back in, I wanted to go back to journalism school and I wanted to work for the New York Times. And I never felt I was in the thick of it. I felt like I was in the most boring place in the world. And looking back, it was far more valuable than any journalism degree I could have gotten. I learned the hard way, and looking back, I had a lot of fun. However, it did force me to triple fact check everything.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And that's what made me a great reporter, was because I never trusted just one source, and I always was triple fact checking everything, sometimes going back to sources and replaying their words so that I didn't misquote them. I didn't think that was my job. And unfortunately, I do think some people do take a story and feel they should make it their own. And it was helpful when I was working with Lizzie because I really wanted this to be her story, in her words, in her language. She's not someone who ever went past the 8th grade. She wasn't allowed to. And I think when you're going after any story, you really have to sit in that person's shoes.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I interviewed a shooter in a new paltz jail cell once, and he opened up to me about the mental health system and how hard it was to get help. And I was able to commiserate with him in that way. And then were able to talk about the other subjects. And that's what, you know, I did with Lizzie was, we started with, who are the Amish? How did you grow up? What did you wear? And that led to all these bigger issues.

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Chris: That's really interesting, the way that, yeah, you start with, like, the small stuff and then build on it from there. Also, it makes me feel much more comfortable that you said triple fact check and things like, you know, you were the type of person that was out there doing the interviews of, like, you know, the primary sources that just, like, I think I felt a, a pressure of relief. Just kind of like, man, that's great that she does that. That's right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah. And I also took off the record very seriously so that I could walk a fine line between keeping cops, for example, accountable. But getting them to give me information, you have to get people to trust you, and you have to take it seriously.

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Chris: Wow, what a tightrope.

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Kayla: It's interesting that you were able to bring it back to. Yeah. The story that you were telling with Lizzie. And that really brings us, you know, to why we're kind of here having this conversation, talking about the book that you co wrote with Lizzie Hershberger behind Blue Curtains, which, as you know, I think that we will probably tell our listeners before this. This is the story of Lizzie's upbringing in the Swartzen Ruber Amish community, the sexual abuse she and others endured as a child in that community, and the steps she's taken to give other amish children a different story. So how did you meet Lizzie? Like, what brought the two of you together on this project?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Well, I got swept into the hash meToo movement in 2016 and 2017 when I came forward about my own abuse. And I met a lot of survivors from a lot of different walks of life. And one was an activist who was former Amish, and she worked with women, and one of them was Lizzie. And Lizzie wanted to write a simple ebook about what it was like to grow up Amishe. And our mutual friend didn't really have the time, and it wasn't a large paying project, you know, and I was really sick at the time with my. With PTSD. I had really sort of given up. And I thought, sure, why not? I could use a little money. I'll try it. And it changed my life, and it changed Lizzie's life. We're still friends.

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Chris: That's great.

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Kayla: I love that. I guess I should do a full disclosure. I'm also a writer. I write for tv. So I very well aware of everything that goes into that has brought about the me too movement. And I'm not a survivor in the industry, but, yeah, it's a monster of an industry. So I think it's interesting that's kind of what brought you two together. I don't think I. You know, it's. It's such a small group of people that are able to get into the quote unquote industry. And so I don't think we would think about somebody from an amish background or multiple people from amish backgrounds becoming a part of that industry. So that's. I don't know. I just. I'm kind of surprised that's where the two of you met. It's really.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Well, ironically, I was never in the industry, but I was. I just happened to be walking by Lincoln center when I was 15 years old and was approached by James Toback, who was in the industry. Later on, over 400 women came forward. So, you know, it sort of all just collided. And now there are survivors from the industry talking to women from the plane communities, and it's great. I mean, that's progress, right?

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Kayla: Right. Yeah. To even be able to bridge that gap between. Yeah. Even just, I think the little bit of research that I did trying not to, you know, spoil myself too much for this conversation about the Amish. You know, there's. There aren't really any Amish in California. They're just not here. And sort of just to be able to bridge that geographical gap of people who don't live in those areas. But the stories are still. Are still the same everywhere.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Right. And to be fair, you know, there are a lot of people like the Amish. So you have the Schwartz and Struber, who are the most conservative Amish, but then you have Mennonite, and there are thousands of them in this country all over. And then you have anabaptists, which are pretty much the same. And they're all over California, too. They're just called different things. Like, in New York state, they might be called the Bruderhof. They might be a little more progressive. They might be allowed radios, but the fact remains that they're not allowed to be educated. They get no sex education, and the women are taught to be seen and not heard. And that's not okay anywhere, right?

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Chris: Yeah, 2021, I do think. Yeah. Just to add to that, the cultural gulf, it seemed like, between, like, Los Angeles, Hollywood industry, and, you know, Amish, anabaptist mennonite communities seem so vast, but that this is a thing that connects them. That alliance can be built based on this, like, shared experience is, like, both. It was both terrifying, but also, like, uplifting.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Right.

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Chris: It's like, it sucks that it had to have happened, but the fact that is like an alliance that has been formed is really cool. It's just really interesting.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And imagine you're in a virtual survivorous group, and you're a former mennonite woman, and your community is scandalized just because you're divorced and you're in a community with women whose predators were at the casting couch. Or we're famous, or maybe we're in government and you start talking about larger issues of race and culture. Culture. It makes people uncomfortable, but it also educates everyone and it does bring us together. And I now work with, I work with conservatives on a board of directors. I work with progressives, and we can all, we all work together. I think that's a miracle.

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Chris: Yeah. That is. In this day and age, that does sound miraculous. Yeah, that must feel pretty good.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: My mother was a revolutionary, you know, hippie in Brooklyn. So in her world, this would not be happening.

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Kayla: Right?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Right.

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Chris: I do want to get back to blue curtains a little bit now with spoilers minimized, since I do think that our audience will actually really enjoy reading the book. Can you just give us like a quick overview summary of the plot?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Sure. So Lizzie's family moves to Minnesota to start a new, very conservative Swartz and Struberhead amish community. And it begins with Lizzie's life, which is somewhat typical for a lot of people in those communities. So you learn that she has no electricity or radio or books or music. And as she gets older, you start to see that while they're chided and punished sometimes for having the wrong color of blue curtains, when things like abuse, sexual abuse of children go on, it's not only overlooked, but the child is blamed for being too tempting and the men are forgiven. So that breeds a certain kind of abuse on a generational level. So by the time Lizzie turns 14, she's taken out of school, she's sent to work as an indentured servant for a pastor who becomes a deacon and his family.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Not only is she cooking, cleaning, doing the laundry, but she's milking the cows and taking care of the chickens. And it's twenty four seven. And then growing up in a family with no affection, no love, all of that is shunned. This older man starts to show her some attention and he begins to groom her and she basically escapes. And I won't give away too much, but 30 years later, she ends up coming forward against her abuser in a landmark case that actually happened. And Liz and I met for the first time at the sentencing, which happens at the end of the book.

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Kayla: Wow.

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Chris: I see you have some cats, by the way. I am almost certainly going to leave this in for the podcast.

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Kayla: Our cats interrupt us all the time. Literally.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: There's a fly in here.

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Chris: They're doing their job. I'm constantly posting pictures of our stupid cat to Twitter, so.

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Kayla: But yeah, I just want to say again to our audience, just go read the book. Because it was, I mean, I think I read it. I think I read it in two sittings. I could have. I could have read it in one. It was just. Yeah.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Wow. It's such an accomplishment. Very well, because I had no idea for so long how to make that story, the first part of the story, interesting, you know?

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Kayla: Sure. Sure.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: So thank you.

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Chris: Well, you and I cannot overemphasize enough how addled we are by Twitter. So two sittings is very impressive.

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Kayla: It's very impressive.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I know.

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Kayla: There's one thing I had a question about, is that the book is advertised as a true crime memoir. And I've seen that specific genre kind of pop up just as I was looking more about the book and as I googled that phrase, it wasn't a genre that I'd heard of before. So. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about what that means?

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Chris: I.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Sure. Well, I'm not going to say I came up with true crime memoir, but I will tell you that in my research, I realized that memoir isn't going to sell. True crime is going to sell, and this is about a true crime, and it is a memoir. So I stuck that tagline on there, and maybe, yes, I'm sure I saw it somewhere, but I think it's perfect. And it kind of seemed to blow up as a genre, so it all worked out. But originally, you know, were. We were not going to write about any of that, really.

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Kayla: So it was just going to be kind of Lizzie's, you know, the. The experiences that she could talk about kind of thing, or, I mean, what was the draw of the book for you at that point?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You know, I thought I was going to make maybe a $1,000 editing 40,000 words, right? And when I started asking her questions, like, what do you mean? They did that? What does that even mean? She was like, oh, that's not normal. And I'd say, not really. You didn't know what your body parts were called. And we started a discussion, and we started talking every day, and it was really this clash of cultures coming together and me being like, wait a minute. And I was also grappling with my own grooming experience, which nobody wanted to hear because Weinstein was blowing up. And my grooming did not end up in a rape. Lizzie did not want to say the word rape. The word shoved was considered too graphic.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And it was through our relationship and really talking about our experience that she agreed and she found her journals.

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Kayla: Wow.

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Chris: That. I mean, having read the book like that, just. That is such a jarring thing that you just said about how she didn't even like it was, oh, it's about the Amish. And then it was you that pointed. Like some of the things that happened. Again, no spoilers, but are pretty intense. I mean.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah.

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Chris: Wow, that's incredible.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It was some of it. It was just so unbelievable. And we documented it all. It's all true. Right.

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Kayla: So was it. Was it really this? The conversations with you as someone trauma informed of are really what made the book kind of what it is? Yes, it's Lizzie's experiences, but they weren't really experiences she was planning on talking about until kind of almost therapeutically working through this with you, in a way.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah. I think there was one day where I said, lizzie, you realize that he raped you. It's just a silence. You know, it wasn't a word she could speak.

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Kayla: Right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And then when she started speaking and I started listening, it just, you know, it's so healing. I can't underestimate that enough because she received death threats. Her family didn't want her to write about it. She didn't want to talk about it. She still lives in a community where she's judged every single day.

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Kayla: Right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And I think it really took her speaking and being heard and not being judged, and she really started to tell her story, and that's a testament to her courageous.

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Kayla: We just watched a documentary last night called Holy Hell, and it's about a cult. It's about a cult called the Buddha field cult. Part of what is making me bring this up is that it was fully told from the perspective of the survivors. It was fully told by the people who lived it. There weren't. I mean, I think there might be documentary maker, the documentary maker, and I think everyone who was interviewed, I think so, was a member, had been a member, had survived this group.

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Kayla: And it had such a different feeling than some of these other documentaries that we've been watching about cults, where, yes, they'll have a survivor here and there, or there's one survivor, but then you bring in a lot of experts or academics or talking heads, as you will it just watching this documentary where the survivors were able to say everything in their own words and the story was entirely told from their perspective, just, it felt like a very different. A different thing. And I think behind blue curtains has that same feeling when you're reading it. So, yes, you and Lizzie wrote this together, but it's so much from her perspective and just, it's different than if you'd be reading a book somebody wrote about, you know, about the Amish and have that kind of removal, that layer of removal.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah. You know, I didn't design myself to do this, but I see so many writers, editors, critics, who just want to take the right words, what they think are the right words to tell a story, and it's so disrespectful to the person whose story it is. That's one of the reasons I never talked about my experience with James Toback to the Hollywood Reporter, for example. I don't need some, I'm sorry, I love all of them, but some 20 something years old journalist putting my story in words she feels is appropriate.

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Kayla: Right, right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And I've really worked hard and built a career on respecting the voice of the survivor. That's really the most I can say because my voice was never respected.

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Kayla: Well, and that's so powerful in the book because I think we. We kind of want perfect survivors sometimes. A lot of times. And I felt that it was very brave. Hopefully this isn't going too much into spoilery territory of talking about Lizzie grappling with the fact, like, am I enjoying this? Am I not enjoying this? Does it feel good? Does it not feel good? Do I love him? Do I not love him? To be able to have those, to include those thoughts that might make someone a less than perfect survivor, we need to have all parts of the story, like the good, the bad, and the ugly. But was it difficult to go there? Was it difficult to bring that into this?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It was difficult for me at times, because when she didn't have the language to describe what had happened to her, which she often did not, I had to go deep and find my own language, and it affected me physically, emotionally, and spiritually. With that said, there are no perfect survivors like, mem is a survivor.

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Kayla: Right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And she's certainly not perfect. And there were a lot of decisions that Lizzie made that I had a hard time understanding, even though I'm a survivor of grooming and sexual assault, and I had a beta reader just agonizing over why Lizzie didn't leave a potentially very safe situation that might have had a happy ending. And it's hard to describe to someone who's nothing that affected by sexual assault or somebody who just doesn't understand that's scary, too. Safety is scary because it's safety that got us in trouble in the first place.

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Kayla: Right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And so you're gonna make decisions that other people aren't gonna understand, aren't gonna be angry with.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: I mean, I remember when were both reading it and you were a little bit ahead of me. And when we got to the point where she left the safety, we'll just leave it at that. I remember saying to you, like, wait, what happened here? What did she do? This doesn't make any sense. Like, I remember even just reading it going, like, I don't understand this until we sort of, like, talked it through. And, you know, some of the stuff you're saying about, like, and we see that in other cults, too. I mean, even in, I think that was present in Buddha Field, not to bring that up again, but, you know, people leaving, coming back. Actually, heavens gate, we just watched Heaven's Gate, and that was present there as well, where people would leave and then they would. They would go right back.

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Kayla: Right? Yeah.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Just like an abusive relationship.

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Kayla: Yeah. A lot of the same. A lot of similarities between, you know, what can be a one one relationship and then what can be, you know, this kind of relationship with a. With a culture.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Right.

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Chris: Do you think, can you talk a little bit about, like, that moment for Lizzie, for you, where you kind of go from this? It's like two totally different frames of reality where it wasn't abuse, where you can't use that language, where you don't have the ability to say rape to that, like, completely different state of mind, where suddenly that is a reality. Can you talk about that transition a little bit?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You know, there was a time once we, after we talked about the rapes that Lizzie gave up, and she disappeared for like six months.

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Kayla: Wow.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And I continued writing because I really believed in the story. And she called me up and she said one, that one of her children had passed and that she had decided to come forward against her abuser. And, you know, I think for her, it was sort of, she can go back to this life, which in a lot of ways was sort of similar to how she grew up. She married somebody from the culture. You know, they still, they went to a church and went to counseling, you know, with a pastor. And I think at some point she had to decide if she was going to buckle and be that marriage wrecker, you know, 14 year old shamed, you know, shunned I weak person that everyone saw her as, or she was going to transcend.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And, you know, at one point, it just kind of turned around. She was like, I was raped. And, you know, it's an emotional moment because she will call them a cult now.

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Kayla: Wow.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: She's very clear. And she still gets death threats. She still gets pressure from family and the church to stop what she's doing. But she'll also. She gets a lot of feedback from survivors and people who've been around those communities and seen what goes on, thanking her and who told her that they're inspired to write their own story or to escape. And we have all started working together, other plane survivors, and we've built a national organization. And the whole purpose is to make sure that no plane survivor ever has to stand alone on their side of the courtroom.

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Chris: That's fantastic. Yeah, it's. You mentioned her transcendence, I think is the word you used. And it did feel like that reading the book, like, she. I remember we talked about this, too, how much resistance she kept getting. Like, you would think that she had turned the corner and these people will be cool. And it was never the case except for, like, maybe two people. I mean, there were, like, a couple people that were supportive of her. In particular, her relationship with royal. Her sister was incredible. And royal is like, sort of like the hero of that book, but it's just. Yeah. The amount of resistance she kept getting and pushing through was like, it was inspiring. I don't know if I could do that right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It absolutely was inspiring. And I give her and her journey a lot of credit for my own healing, honestly. You know, I was so weak. And I don't say that to say people with trauma are weak, but I literally was physically weak. You know, I didn't think I had a whole lot of time. And I know that sounds dramatic, but this process was so empowering and to see it come to fruition and to see the survivors reading it and saying they couldn't put it down, I mean, it's more than we ever could have hoped for.

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Kayla: Right, right. You know, so this, we. I know we talked earlier about how it was kind of a therapeutic process for Lizzie, but it sounds very clearly this is also a therapeutic process for you as well. So it's kind of like this book feels like such a. Before and after, maybe for. For both of you.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I really thought, you know, my life was over. My chance at a writing career was over. I mean, that's what complex PTSD does to somebody, and it can do it to you in your forties or, you know, however long, 30 years after it happened. Once you start to connect with other survivors, who will give you the space to hear your story and your truth, it's so empowering. There's so many virtual communities now. You know, Lizzie and I always say we're available through our websites to answer questions, and we really mean that. Like, there is hope. And I saw it happen through this process.

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Kayla: Would you mind explaining what complex PTSD is? Because I feel like generally society knows, quote unquote, what PTSD is, but I feel like CPTSD is kind of similar how you were saying some things are being trauma informed is now coming to light more. I feel like CPTSD is becoming more known, but, yeah. Could you explain. Explain what that. What that is?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yes. Thank you for asking. Complex PTSD is different from PTSD in that PTSD means often a singular event. So, for example, somebody might go to a war zone and come back, they have PTSD. The reality is a lot of soldiers actually have complexity PTSD because war was not their first battleground. Their first battleground was their home. Okay. And when you are supposed to feel safe and loved and you are abused as a child, it changes your brain chemistry. It messes with your level of trust, with your instincts, and it can affect us physically later in life. It can cause physical disease. And so I think more of us have complex PTSD because we never really. Our brains didn't develop in a healthy way. We didn't feel safe. You know, I actually have a wonderful family now, and it's not.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Not all childhood trauma comes from within the family, but there's so many factors. Poverty, where you grew up, you know, culture, economics. So I encourage everybody who's been diagnosed with bipolar or personality disorder or diabetes or immune diseases or, you know, chronic pain to look into complex PTSD and read books like the body keeps the score and understand the somatic and psychological connection.

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Chris: If you don't mind, I'd like to zoom out a little bit and just talk about the Amish a bit. Can you already talked a little bit about how you came into the story. Can you give us just a quick overview of some of the culture and beliefs of the. I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong. Schwarzenstruuber, is that very good? All right, I'm done.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You did it. Show's overdem, Swartz and Struber. I still mispronounce it. So no electricity, no radio, no music, no books that are not. That are not approved by the church elders. So you stop school after 8th grade, and you're only taught by another amish child, usually, who also has an 8th grade education, no sex education. They don't know how to name their body part. They are told not to trust the English, that's what we're called, not to trust law enforcement, and that you should be seen and not hurt, especially if you're a girl and then if you're sexually assaulted, well, it's on you for not covering up properly or whatever they expect those children to do. So, you know, they also bake wonderful pies, and they do barn raising. And look, they have a fantastic work ethic. Seen these women in action, and they.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: They mean business, and a lot of them are grateful for that work ethic and for this sense of community. They have a wonderful sense of community. If you're in trouble, those. Those people will drive 24 hours straight.

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Chris: Wow.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Packing to protect you know, so I'm all for that. It's just there's a lot of sexual assault, there's a lot of abuse, there's a lot of animal abuse, and there's a lot of shaming. And they really. We would like to educate those communities and offer them simple things like, your vagina is called a vagina and nobody should be touching it. You know, it's 101.

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Kayla: Why do you think the amish community in particular is so. So insular and focuses so little on recruiting? Like, we talk about a lot of different groups on this show. You know, some of them secretive, some of them insular, some of them not. But there tends to be like an on ramp away in, other than just being born into it. So why do you think this group in particular is so closed?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Well, they say they shun everything that's worldly, and they think that they're better than us, and they do get special treatment. For example, the Supreme Court just ruled that the Amish don't have to have any permits or septic system. They can just poop in the river and the rest of us can drink it five days later. Why? Because of religious freedom. So I think that they have learned that works for them. They give a lot of money to politicians. They bring in a lot of tourism.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And so when we're dealing with a DA who doesn't want to prosecute an Amish or Mennonite bishop because they might lose some money, it's our job to call that DA on behalf of the survivor and say, hey, we're now a powerful national organization, and we can do a letter writing campaign or social media campaign, and it can go either way for you. And we're getting results. That's a great thing.

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Kayla: That is not the answer that I expected. I did not expect the answer to be that they. No, and that's fascinating. I just did not expect the answer to be that there's. That this group holds power in a way that I don't know that I.

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Chris: Feel like I feel. It's like the end of a Scooby Doo show. And they, like, pull off the mask and it's like economic power again.

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Kayla: It was capitalism the whole time.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It absolutely is. And they've got lots and lots of money. Why? Because they don't have to pay taxes or do what, you know, they don't have to build a septic system. They don't have to control the poop. Like, it's just. It's a cult, you know, and they love it. They can live their lives peacefully and pretend that, you know, they're peaceful, God loving folk who great. Who bake great pies, which they do.

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Kayla: I mean, but, hi, it's not a good trade. Weigh the scale.

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Chris: As long as they're not downriver, I guess, you know?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And I'm sick of people saying, oh, well, you know, they're peaceful and, you know, they look so happy and, okay, you go live there and see your kids, not get an education and be told they deserve to get raped. So even if you don't want to read the book, buy the book and hand it to an amish girl at a pie stand or give it to your local library, you know?

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Yeah. That's nice.

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Chris: Hear that, listeners?

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Kayla: If you're too addled by Twitter to read, you can still buy the book and do some good with it.

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Chris: We'll tweet it out in 140 character at a time.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Thank you.

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Chris: So going to Lizzie's story. Yeah. She does recount episodes of corporal punishment and verbal attacks from her parents and other elder family members is just like part of life, day to day. So from a non amish perspective, like, this is clearly physical and verbal abuse. Right. So to your knowledge, is this common in Swartz and Struber communities in general, or is this particular to Lizzie's community? It sounds like what we've been talking about. It sounds like it's maybe more common.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yes, it is. And I'm only saying that because I know lots and lots of former Amish and men. I'm not pulling the stuff out of my ass. And we get. But we get accused of that at our organization of, like, making up facts, and we don't. So I did another memoir with a young woman who grew up Amish and had a wonderful childhood. Fabulous memories. Like, everything you would want to think about the Amish was true in her case, but she went to Las Vegas and became a stripper and a sex worker. So, you know, there are good. I'm sure there are good experiences, but the problem is that they're covering up for too much. They're given the opportunity to cover up too much. And when they're told there's nothing wrong with what they're doing in the abuse, they're going to do it again.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: In fact, most of the plain men who are arrested with help from our organization say things like, well, that's the way it's always been, or, yeah, I tried to rape her. Is that wrong? Like, there's something wrong there, right? That's not okay.

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Kayla: Right, right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah, I feel like it makes me so mad.

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Kayla: No, that's.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And they're allowed to run things like rehab centers for sexual offenders without being licensed.

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Kayla: Oh, no.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You know, that's not okay because those people are in our communities.

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Kayla: Right, right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Oh, I could talk about this all day.

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Kayla: Yeah, it's not funny, but it's. Our next question was kind of like, yeah, we talked about the verbal and physical abuse. Is that systemic? You know, what about the sexual abuse? Systemic? I think we've kind of already said yes, that is a systemic part of.

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Chris: A.

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Kayla: Part of a larger issue at this point. And I guess this is less of a question, but just more wanting to point out that, you know, when you're reading the book, it's very, as, you know, as an english person, it's very easy to see, you know, what is physical abuse, what is verbal abuse, what is sexual abuse?

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Kayla: But it also felt like all of the things that you're talking about with not knowing names of body parts, not having the basic sex education of, like, even where babies come from, you know, having medical procedures done without your consent, and just the constant threat of, like, God is watching you, even when you write in your diary, the, like, the threats of shaming, the acts of shaming, it just feels like so much of the daily life, if it's not intended to lead to abuse, it's hard to see how it couldn't and wouldn't always.

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Chris: Kind of secrecy and control mechanisms are just like. We're very apparent.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah, absolutely right. And, you know, imagine for someone like me, and I was raised in, you know, socially progressive Brooklyn with lots of resources. My mother was a feminist and an activist. And the first time I showed up to a police station at twelve years old, because my best friend was right, I was asked what were wearing.

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Kayla: Oh, my God.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: So how different is it? You know what I mean?

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Chris: Right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Like, that's what gets me so incensed, is that we, Lizzie and I had a very similar experience. And there's just no reason for that.

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Chris: Right? I know. It's like. It's, like, easy for us to say, oh, man, those crazy Amish who blame the victim for getting raped, and then.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It'S like, look at the backyard.

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Chris: Right, right.

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Kayla: And, you know, how shocking. Like, we kind of going back to what we're saying about how there's such a gulf between, you know, our communities and the plain communities, like you mentioned, but really, the gulf is. Is not that wide when we look at the systems that. That lead into this, the systemic abuse, especially of young kids.

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Chris: Yeah. The abuse. The abuse narrative seems to be, like, evergreen, like, whichever way you look at it.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And, you know, I'm hesitant to say this, but when I see, you know, a Cosby survivor talking about race and culture and how hard it is to be a black woman coming out against a black man and a former anabaptist woman hears and can relate to just the shame of coming forward against a minister or a bishop or a deacon and start to be able to understand each other. I mean, I think that says something about this movement as a whole.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Something that Kayla and I have really sort of begun noticing with a lot of the groups that we talk about on the show is this. Sometimes members will have, like, this desire to leave or maybe just be critical of the group, but then they will suppress those feelings for fear that, like, nobody else is having these same feelings that I am, or maybe worse, that others will snitch. Right. They'll snitch on my sense of doubt. But in reality, like, everyone else is actually all having these feelings. They're just also suppressing them, having the exact same fears in reverse. So what's fascinating to us is how two or more people can just self police themselves over laws that neither of them really believe in. And we've seen this in Scientology, in NXIVM, Heaven's gates, and groups we've covered on the show, like twin Flames universe.

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Chris: So it really hit hard when, like, near the end of the book, Lizzie realizes that she isn't or wasn't alone in her desires to. To leave and speak out and even in her own family. So how do you think that the. The Schwarzenegger Amish are able to instill this sort of, like, strange self policing mechanism?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It's interesting because when you say that, I think about Royal Lizzie's sister, and it makes me emotional because I got to know Lizzie's sister in real life. You know, we all got to go back to that house where they grew up together. You know, Lizzie walked into the house and her sister couldn't. And, and I think toward the end of the book when they realized that they both been having a similar experience all along, but they were created as adversaries, as enemies, almost, which is what happens in toxic families. And what's so sad is that they could have been there for each other all along.

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Kayla: Right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And that's what abuse does, is it turns one victim into the villain. And, you know, a lot of other victims turn against them. So I think that, you know, Lizzie and her sister are sort of a very good example of how that happens in families and in cults and in these cultures. It can happen in abusive families of all kinds. It's insidious. You know, it's when you're trained as a child to be competitive or not to trust those closest to you or you're told things about your siblings, I think it has lasting effects, you know, but they're very close today and, you know, royal has her own story.

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Kayla: Right. Right. Yeah, it was, you know, again, not trying to spoil, but I'm glad to hear that the two sisters are close and that wasn't stolen from them, along with, you know, so much other things that were stolen from them that they were able to keep that piece of their relationship.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Well, as strong as Lizzie is, her sister, whose name is Rachel, is actually also, I think, just as strong for she really had to stay in the background and not get to tell her story. And I know that story also very well. When you're not in the spotlight and you can't, you also have a story to tell.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: But Rachel showed extraordinary strength and support, and I don't know, it's sort of, you know, every family has its problems.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: Yeah. The way she was able to sort of, like, champion the cause, you know, sort of pick up the flag when Lizzie couldn't hold it was the fact that she also had her story while doing that is incredible.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah.

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Chris: I also want to ask, we've been drawing, like, a lot of parallels, you know, saying, like, what are some of the parallels between this and Hollywood and where there's another parallel that I wanted to ask you about because, you know, I, I got a lot of catholic church vibes when I was reading this. You know, I grew up catholic, and in my church, I never heard anything about abuse of altar boys. But to this day, I'm still, like, super glad that I was never an altar boy because sadly, there's a good chance that something could have happened. And me, as someone who sort of, like, still identifies a little bit with my catholic heritage. It's like, really. It's really shameful. Like, it's really shameful and unconscionable that this stuff just keeps happening over and over. Abusive priests just get protected and shuffled around.

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Chris: Victims and their advocates get the shunning treatment, rinse, repeat, every few years. Right. So, I mean, based on your background in this story and we've been talking about multiple different communities, are you able to distill any common features from some of these communities that seem to, like, have these recurring abuse outbreaks?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Wow, that's a great question. It's very layered. You mean as far as cults?

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Chris: Like, kind of, yeah. Whether they're. Whether you. You don't have to necessarily use the C word, but, like, what is, you know, you could. If you could say, like, well, you know, secrecy is kind of always a thing, and, like, a powerful hierarchy is always a thing.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You know, I hate. It's. It would be so easy to pin this on men, which is, I think a lot of what people thought about the me too movement, and that's not, you know, at some point, you got to pin it on who is responsible. But I think what this all has done is that it's creating a larger movement. You know, I call it the survivors movement. And it's actually, I'm working with somebody who is abused by priest. A priest. It's not just secrecy. It's abuse of power. That's what ties all of these people together. You know, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, the deacons, the catholic priests, the nuns. Like, I mean, they're everywhere, right? And, you know, I was talking about this the other day on another podcast. But as a survivor of abuse, I think we have two paths.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You can become an abuser so easily, or you can take the really hard route and become an empowered survivor. And there's nothing like it. It's so hard. You literally have to walk through that fire, but you come out so much stronger. And here's the thing, is, empowered survivors have the same power as a predator, the same way that they can smell the blood and the water around us and see us as vulnerable. An empowered survivor can see a predator and can tell. And I really want to see a shift in power, not just where misogyny is concerned, you know, with women getting respect. But I think we all need to work together. Like, this movement is about men and women and trans and gay and black and white.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And, like, all of us have this common thing, which was we're abused by someone in power.

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Chris: It was interesting with the holy hell with the Buddha fields documentary we watched, again, top of mind, but all of the abuse that was happening there was man to man. All of the abuse victims were male in that cult. And I'll also point out, I'm gonna have to spoil something at some point. The moment that Lizzie talked about overhearing her kids, and that was a boy, that was the target, overhearing her kids.

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Kayla: Talking about a case in which a teacher was abusing some students.

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Chris: Yes. And that was, well, two things. One is it was like just fucking dagger to the heart, because the way that she heard the words that her daughter spoke, like, hearing them be, like, about her in her own head, was just like, I'd like, put it down.

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Kayla: Yeah, you had a hard time, but.

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Chris: Yeah, but it was just interesting that, like, the thing that triggered her was. Yeah, was something that was. We don't talk that often about, but, like, you know, boysenhe also face abuse.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah, 100%. And again, like, it's so easy to become an abuser, and I don't want that for boys or girls or any of any gender. You know, I think we have a real opportunity to teach young people and old people, but people how to really take that power and do something good with it. I mean, I can. I'm as I could have been a criminal. I was, you know, I was homeless, I've been institutionalized, I've been arrested. I'm open about all of it. I came out the other side with more cognitive ability, more trust in my instincts, more strength and courage than I ever thought possible. And that has to do with being in recovery from alcohol. But it's worth it. Like, really, it's much better than being an abuser and abusing that power. And it's so easy. I get it.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Like, I can imagine being in a spiritual guru, you know, had that fantasy where Kaftan, you know, tell. Tell women everything that they should be doing. And I can just imagine how that power goes to your head so fast. It's such a huge responsibility.

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Kayla: What do you think tips the scales one way or the other? Like you said, that somebody who's gone through this experience, there's two paths. What do you think might tip the scales? I mean, I'm sure it's different for every person, but it's a hard question.

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Chris: What was it for you?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: It is. Well, for me, let's see. You know, I was on a great track, and then at 38 years old, I found myself stumbling out of, like, a drug house at 07:00 a.m. In a leather booth, you know, drunk and high off my ass, and I had stolen some money, and I had done something with somebody's boyfriend. And I just. I just, you know, I knew I had to make a decision. That decision for me was rehab. Like, that was just step number one. I was like, if I want to be a good person, I have to take alcohol out of the equation.

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Kayla: Right?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: That was the choice for me. I had to train as a boxer and learn how to defend myself so I could feel safe walking down the street. You know, I've educated myself, so I have the power to get somebody arrested or have a conversation about what they should do. I don't know. I'm just. I think you really have to take that power and believe you can do something good with it. But I'm not going to sit here and say that if I wonde, you know, if I got $100 million, and I don't want to ever overestimate myself and become arrogant where I think that power couldn't corrupt me.

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Kayla: Yeah, no, that's. I think that's a good. It's good to have that self awareness. I think that what we're learning as we do this show is that the really, the only thing that you can use to inoculate yourself from going down bad paths is just the sharpest self awareness. Yeah. You just have to be staring at yourself all of the time, which is hard.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah. I had a guy, you know, show interest in me recently. I found out who was married, and I thought, well, you know, I could have a really bad experience here and give myself a lot of drama and heartache, or I can just stand by an ethic I have, which is you don't do that shit.

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Kayla: Right, right.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: You know, and you make a choice.

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Kayla: You make a choice. Yeah.

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Chris: So getting to our last few here, just want to say we mentioned that this episode will be about. More about the book, the story, Lizzie's story, and our interview here. Not about the Amish in general, because, like, you know, most of our other episodes, if you're. You know, our listeners will be familiar with this, or most of other episodes are, like, about a group. Right. We talk about a group. This is more about this story. But now that we've read it and now that we've talked to you today, pretty much guarantee that an episode about the Amish is coming down the pipe. Like, we are definitely going to take what we've learned here and do some more research and do an episode about it. So for when it does. I do have to ask the question, the gimmick question.

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Chris: Do you think that the Schwarzenegger Amish are a cult and why or why not?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I don't think they're a cult, but I'm not sure any cult does. I do think they're a cult. By the definition. They brainwash you with the Bible and their version of it, and that's it. I think that any community, especially that's led by one gender because they think they're superior, is set up for failure and is a cult. You know, it's not an empowering society if. Especially if women aren't respected. I can't respect that.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: So that's what I would say is that any culture that operates that way is a cult.

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Kayla: That's, I think, as good a.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Can't think for.

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Kayla: Yeah. Good a definition is don't read a book.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: We only want you to read this or don't even read the Bible. We'll read it to you.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: That was crazy. I did not know that. I. In fact, it took me a couple. She had to mention it a couple times before I figured out what was going on there, that they were not allowed to read the Bible.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: If somebody's telling you're not allowed to read your own propaganda, like there's. That's a red flag.

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Kayla: Yeah. I did appreciate that they could read little house on the prairie. I thought that was nice.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I know.

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Kayla: Love those books. But.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Yeah.

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Kayla: So I just one important question that we have kind of, as we wrap up, if anyone listening to us right now is a silent abuse victimization, what would you want to say to them?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I would say first that you're not alone. I know that it feels like you are, and I could get emotional saying that because I've been there, but you don't have to be. I tell everyone, you can go to my website right now and write me an email and I will respond. There are virtual groups. If you're in recovery from anything, and we're all in recovery from something, from alcohol, drugs, food, sex, love, self hatred. There's a support group for that, and it's free. There are storytelling workshops. I took a recovery storytelling workshop recently, and I won. You know, that's empowering. Congrats. Yeah, but it's all part of the process. I would just say, reach out, and if you're rejected, reach out again and reach out again. And you're going to get somebody who cares and is willing to give you the space to listen.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: And it gets better.

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Kayla: Is there anything that we might have missed in this conversation today that you'd like our audience to know about, either yourself or your experiences or about the experiences of Lizzie and the Amish? Anything that we maybe didn't touch on?

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Molly Maeve Eagan: I would say that a great podcast or a podcast guest would be Jasper Hoffman from the Plain People podcast, who is a rip roaring, like, straight talking gal who was raised Mennonite, I think, very conservative. And they talk cults all the time. My website is mollymave.com or mollymavegan.com. You can reach out to Lizzie if you're from the playing community or never standalone USA, which is an organization I help run online. And I don't know. I think that's it.

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Kayla: We covered a lot today. I feel like we ran the gamut.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: If Reese Witherspoon is listening, I think she should play Lizzie Hirschberger in the movie. And I'll say that on every interview, I am sold.

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Kayla: I am sold on this.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Anyone else who wants to play this role? I think it would make a great movie.

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Kayla: Oh, yeah. I think so. I feel like we haven't. It feels like there was a time where there were, like, multiple movies coming out about the amish community. Like silent Witness, I think was one of them. And then I think we haven't had one in a minute.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Well, there is a documentary coming out about Lizzie.

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Kayla: Wow.

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Molly Maeve Eagan: Filmed during the sentencing, so when that's announced, we'll be all over it. But. And a lot of the other women are. There's a lifetime movie being made. There's, you know, they're. They're coming out in droves, and they're coming out with their protest signs and telling their stories. It's great.

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Kayla: The stories are out there. That's really good to hear.

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Chris: So normally, this is where Kayla and I would talk about the interview and what we thought and analyze it every which way. But again, we wanted this episode to really be about Lizzie and Molly's story. So I think we're actually going to leave it to stand on its own at this point.

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Kayla: And since we didn't technically do an episode about a group, quote, unquote, there's no cult criteria and judgment today. So it's sad. Cue the sad trombone. Wait, no, that was a little half hearted. Oh, actually, because it should.

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Chris: No, it should be the. The price is right one.

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Kayla: What's that?

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Chris: No criteria.

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Kayla: But like we said, were in the interview. Our experience with this book and with talking to Miss Egan, it means we're absolutely going to be doing an episode about the Amish in general here on the show. So count on that. Hold us to it. Hold our feet to the fire. It's probably going to happen sooner rather than later, but we just want to.

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Chris: Make sure we want to do it.

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Kayla: We want to do it and we want to do it justice.

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Chris: Well, thank you, Kayla. And thank you, of course, to Molly Maeve Egan for your time and your insights today.

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Kayla: And to Lizzie Hirshberg, her, for writing this book along the way.

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Chris: Yeah. For sharing your story. And for, man, we said spoilers a whole bunch in the interview, so obviously don't to spoil it. But she had a journey, let's put it that way. So, Lizzie, if you're ever listening to this, thank you for your courage. And of course, Kayla and I both now have said this multiple times, but we recommend the book. It's very good. It's available on Amazon. It's called behind Blue Curtains. And Molly also mentioned she's available to reach out anytime if you feel like there's, you know, if maybe you have been victimized or abused or even if you're not sure and you just need somebody to talk to or if you're feeling alone, you're always welcome to contact her. Just go to her website, mollymay.com, and she has a contact form there that she's pretty good about replying to.

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Chris: And of course, I mean, you know, if somebody wants to email us at any time, please feel free. Of course we're here to listen. We're not experts on any of this stuff, but we're always here to listen.

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Kayla: So we'll have Molly and both Molly and Lizzie Hirschberger's resources and contact info in our show notes as well. And yeah, like Chris said, we are here.

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Chris: This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this has been cult or just weird.