S2E5 - The Tulpa (interview w tulpamancer & his tulpa)

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Kayla: Hey, Chris.

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Chris: Hey, Kayla.

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Kayla: How you doing? How's it going?

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Chris: Welcome back to cult or just weird? Are you welcoming season two? I'm welcoming our listeners. No, because you've been here this whole time.

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Kayla: Okay.

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Chris: But our listeners, who are just joining us after our awesome intro. Music welcome to episode.

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Chris: What is this?

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Chris: Episode five now of season two.

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Kayla: I don't know why I asked her.

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Chris: Just weird.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Yes, because you should. You should know that.

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Kayla: I don't know.

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Chris: Okay, five. It's five.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Okay. Welcome to episode who the hell knows? It's five of cult or just weird season two?

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Kayla: It's five guys.

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Chris: It's five guys.

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Kayla: Burgers and fries.

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Chris: Mm. So today we have something slightly different than we normally do.

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Kayla: Extra special.

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Chris: Extra special. Today, rather than covering a new cult or just weird group on the program, were fortunate enough to have received a message from a member of a previous group that we've talked about on the show.

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Kayla: And not even just a member, a person we specifically talked about on the show.

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Chris: Right. On this particular episode, we talked about this particular person.

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Kayla: Actually, these particular people.

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Chris: Sorry. That's right. Well, is the second one. Is the second one a people? Is that she consider herself a person? We'll say, folks, a person, but maybe not human. Non human person.

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Kayla: Non human person.

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Chris: Yeah. So. So one of these persons and his companion reached out to us to basically to come on the show and do an interview with us. We said awesome.

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Kayla: Multiple times in the episode. Oh, we would really love to talk to this person. We would really love to talk to these two.

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Chris: And then they emailed us.

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Kayla: And then they emailed us, which is sweet because somebody, one of our listeners, passed it along to them. So thank you to that original person.

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Chris: Yes.

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Kayla: For bringing us all together.

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Chris: That's right. Also, just another example of we totally take our listeners feedback seriously, and we think it's cool when you send us stuff and want to talk to us. But anyway, if you haven't gotten it from all of the, like, hints we've been dropping here, and also from the title of the episode, we are talking to a Tulpamancer and his tulpa today.

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Kayla: And it. Oh, I can't even begin to explain how excited I am.

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Chris: Yeah, I'm super excited.

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Kayla: Yeah. I'm just so glad. If you remember from our Tulpa episodes, our two part Tulpa series better know a tulpa, better not tulpa. We spent a lot of time talking about a vice article that was written by somebody with a similar mindset to us who wanted to kind of get to know the Tulpa community. And in that vice article, you and I were introduced to this Tulpa manster, who goes by Nikdo and his tulpa, Suksi, who we talked a lot about, and how Suksi's got a little bit of some fame going online. There's fan art of her. I. They have their own blog, or they used to have their own blog where you could kind of get a day in the life of the tulpa. Ask a tulpa, that kind of stuff. And we have, like, the ultimate ask a tulpa right now.

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Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty sweet. We have, like, one one time with or two on two, I guess.

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Kayla: Two V two.

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Chris: Two V two. Yeah. Two V two match. And, you know, I mean, we're basically on par with Vice at this point, because now we are interviewing someone that was also interviewed by Vice. So we're basically there.

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Kayla: You're. From your lips to God's ears. We're bigger than Vice, is what we're saying.

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Chris: Yeah. Or if not, we're at least second in command to vice, which, you know, that would be. You know what that would be, right? What would it be, Kayla? Are you mute? What happened?

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Kayla: I just don't want. I just don't want to entertain. What. What would it be, Chris?

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Chris: You know what?

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Chris: I'll let it. I'll let it be unsaid. Everybody knows.

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Kayla: No. Say it.

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Chris: No. No.

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Kayla: It's too late.

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Chris: All right, without further ado, it's Vice. Vice.

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Kayla: I hate you so much.

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Chris: Now, without truly further ado, I say let's get to the interview with Nikto and Suksi.

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Chris: I guess our. Maybe our first lead in question here is how this conversation even came to be in the first place. So did you. You heard our episode. What did you think of the Tulpa episode? And this is your opportunity to, like, issue corrections and clarifications and stuff, too. So tell us how we did if.

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Kayla: We fucked anything up.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, no, you guys, it was fantastic. So I was. Oh, you're welcome. I was on the subreddit and everything, and were talking with one of the people on there, and they said, oh, yeah, you guys are those people from that podcast and everything. And I went, wait, what? So they told me about your podcast, and I listened to a few podcasts at work and everything. So it was like, this is perfect. I'll go check this out. And I listened to both of your episodes, and they were fantastic. You even put in some stuff that I didn't even know about. With the lady who figured out the Tulpa thing, and you went really into depth with her about that. And that was great. I think you nailed the subject and everything, and you treated it like, you know, not a big old jerk or anything.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So it was great. Yeah, no, I loved it. It was a super awesome episode.

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Kayla: Thinking back on it, we talked a lot. I guess we should also say to our listeners, like, we talked a lot about you on the episode from articles that we found online and things we found online. So for our listeners, this is. You'll remember from the Tulpa episodes, we are now talking to Nikto. Yeah, we talked a lot about you.

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Chris: Yeah. And he's the telemancer for Succi.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yes. And from that. From that infamous vice article. Yeah. Which, speaking of corrections and clarifying things for people, just wanted to say that when were doing the interview, the person who did that, he wanted to speak with Shuxi directly, which, you know, fine.

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Chris: I.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And he said, do people in the community have sex with their tulpas? And she responded like, oh, yeah, we do that all the time. And blah, blah. And that they decided to omit the question. So it sounded like she and I had sex all the time, which is.

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Chris: Like, yeah, that is how it read. That is how it read. Interesting.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah. And I get that they're trying to get more clicks and be more edgy and everything, but that was like, oh, thanks. Thanks, guys. You putting me out there and putting me on blast like that. So just to clear the air with people, that's not how it went down. And. Yeah. I mean, at the same time, it's kind of funny.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: You know? Yeah. I wish that they would have clarified that in the article.

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Kayla: Yeah, that's the. That's a pretty big oversight.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Chris: Cause you're right. That is how the article read. And that, you know, for that not to be true, that's a pretty big oversight.

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Kayla: That's not cool.

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Chris: It's funny. We were actually just about. The next question on our list is about the vice article. I'm also interested. How did that even come to pass my bet?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Didn't mean to throw out your question there.

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Chris: No, no. Actually, that's better. Cause that makes us go like, okay, cool. We're on the right track with our questions.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So your question was, how did that interview come about?

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Chris: Yeah, yeah. How did, like, vice reach out to you? How did that become a thing?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It became a thing literally, in the same way that you all did your research. They went on the subreddit asked PEOpLe if they wanted to do interviews. We said, sure. We sent a couple emails back and forth, and that was it.

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Chris: One of the things that I'm most interested in. And, you know, some of these questions are probably going to be familiar from questions, I guess I asked Kayla on the episode. But the process of creating a tulpa, how did that work?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Okay, well, for some background information of how I got it to make a tulpa, would you like to hear how I found out about tulpas, which would give you a little bit of a perspective on the whole process?

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Chris: Okay.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, that sounds good because it's a very funny story. So I was trolling around in the OccUlT SubredDIt, and somebody asked, hey, what do you all think of tulpas? And the response almost entirely was negative, where people are like, oh, no, it's dangerous. They don't know what they're doing. They're messing with forces beyond their comprehension and all of this other StUff. So obviously I had to go check it out and see what they were talking about. And so I was kind of coming at it from a bit of a spiritualistic perspective and everything. And I was looking at what these people were doing, and it's like, okay, I can get the psychological implications, but there's also some people who have the metaphysical implications here, too. That's neat. And what they're doing is, holy shit, they're making their own spirits, but they're, like, completely sapient.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And I self controlled and everything else that is fascinating and cutting edge. So that's how I got introduced to the community. And so I did a lot of research, I did a lot of reading, and I kind of was a little hesitant at first because this doesn't seem like something somebody should do lightly, and it doesn't seem like. Yeah, and it doesn't seem like something that you should do for a selfish reason. Is there even any good reason to do that? So I asked the community, and I kind of got not really a lot of responses for why one should do this sort of thing, but I kind of realized, well, it's like, well, you know, I've got no good reason to do this, but I also don't have any reason not to do this, so why the hell nothing.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So basically, I was taking it, like I said, from a spiritual perspective. And so I focused my spooky energy and everything and did all sorts of spooky stuff and everything else and started out with a prototype baseline idea of what Suksi would be. But then I also implemented some of the techniques that I had read about in the community, which, as people might know, if they listen to your episode, which you all should check out. The process is called forcing, and that's where you interact with your tulpa, and that helps them develop and become their own person and everything. There were two types that I had read up on, which was active forcing, which is when you just kind of sit around and do nothing but hang out with your tolva.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And then there was one called passive forcing, which is where you hang out with your tulpa while doing other stuff, like, I don't know, going to the grocery store, riding a roller coaster or whatever. And I thought, well, if I'm going to have a spooky brain monster hanging out with me all the time, I should probably make it all the time. So I just tried to passive force 24/7 as much as possible, and I got some very good results from it, obviously. So that was kind of my introduction and creation method there. That's my backstory.

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Kayla: That's your backstory? That's. So is there like, are there any like, physical sensations you can kind of relate to? What that, what that process feels like? Like, I'm interested if there is like, if it's purely cerebral or if there is like a physical sensation when you're going through forcing, even. Passive forcing.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: That's, that's actually a, that's a good question. Sometimes the, especially early on, the physical sensations were like pressure feeling around my head and everything slightly. And other than that, the basic sort of physical responses you would get when you are concentrating on something. But outside of that, not really. It's not like I had some sort of spooky arm grasping me from beyond or whatever.

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Kayla: I mean, that does sound pretty cool.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, you have to work up for the spooky arms. You gotta level up your tor points a few times first.

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Chris: That's some vocab I haven't heard yet. That's interesting. So what is your relationship with souxy? Like, actually, how long has she been around? Like, when did you create her? When did she come into being?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: I. She's like, been around for six years, which is for a lot of people in the Topa community, that's ancient, unless it's one of those people who've been around for like 20 years or something. But our relationship has been pretty freaking dope, let me tell you. Like, oh, wait, hold on. Do you guys swear? Is this a kid friendly podcast?

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Kayla: I forget no go. We are always listed as explicit, so go right ahead.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, well, thank fuck. Yeah. No, our relationship has actually been pretty good. We've gotten along fairly well, and it's mostly because the communication barriers are much lowered when somebody's living inside of your head. So if one of us has a problem or something, we can usually talk it out. And, you know, we. We have similar personality types, even though they manifest a little bit differently. But we try to be nice to each other and help each other out and everything, and it's been pretty great. It's sort of like a best friend's roommate sort of situation.

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Kayla: Oh, nice. Is it. Is it just the two of you in your system, or do you have. Are there other tulsa's present?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, Jesus Christ. I could not handle having somebody else up in there. I think. I think we're good here. I have some friends who have many, many tulbas and everything. And it's like. And they have to have internal politics and voting systems and all of this other nonsense. Wow, that sounds like way more work than it's worth. I'm good with just like, occasionally dealing with, hey, I want to get some motherfucking Kane's chicken fingers and me going, well, okay, fine. You know, it being that simple.

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Chris: Yeah. I don't know. I don't even like the politics externally. I don't know if I want to create more, actually. Yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Seriously, why would you do that?

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Kayla: That doesn't sound like fun to me. That doesn't sound enjoyable. That doesn't sound enriching. No.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Different folks, though. Yo.

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Kayla: Sure, sure.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Takes all kinds.

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Chris: This.

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Chris: This brings me to one of the things were actually kind of wondering with all that's going on lately and everybody being quarantined and sheltering and I'm not sure where you live. We're in Los Angeles, so, you know, we've been doing this for. For a few weeks now. I don't know if you. You live alone, but, like, I know that it's helpful for me to have Kayla here. And I feel really bad for people that, you know, are by themselves during this time. Is it helpful for you and Susie to have each other during a time like this one?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Not saying where, but I do live at. In Ohio. Okay. But we, I would say, yeah, it is. Right now I live with two roommates. They don't know about her. But, you know, we. There was also a period in my life where I was living by myself as. By myself as I can get anyway. Honestly, I really liked living by myself and just me and Suzie hanging out. Not to get into too many personal details, but I've been surviving the quarantine and the Rona and all that other stuff pretty fine. My job is still paying me, and that's good. You know, I'm not worried about money or food or anything like that.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And I've been taking the time off, which I have right now, to get back into doing artwork and all sorts of other stuff I've been putting off because I've been hanging out with people or working on other projects and everything. So while my heart goes out to everybody who's been negatively affected by this virus and. And it's a terrible thing, I've been definitely making the best of it. And so Suti. So that's good. Yeah. But she's very useful for stuff like, obviously, emotional support and everything. But one of the things that she also helps me with is I sometimes don't pay attention to, like, maybe if I'm too hungry or tired or something, and it's like I'm mad and I'm upset by this, that, or the other thing. And she'll sometimes pop, and it's like, it's because you're hungry, you dingus.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Go eat a sandwich. And I go, oh, yeah.

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Chris: So, you know, I could use that.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It's been good keeping me mellow.

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Chris: Because sometimes I'll just kind of be like, oh, I'll skip lunch. And then later in the day, I'll be like, why am I so mad at everything?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So having somebody who can, like, go, hey, you need a nap. Go eat a sandwich.

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Chris: That's cool. I'm glad that you guys are doing well through this. Yeah, through the challenging time.

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Kayla: You mentioned that you live with a couple roommates that don't know about Souxy and. But you do have friends. Obviously, you're part of this community. Does your Tulpa community, is that entirely online, or do you have people in your day to day life that do know about Zuxi or have tulpas have relations with the tulpas themselves?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: There are a few people who do know about Suksi, and some of them are local. I did tell my girlfriend about Susie and everything before I asked her out because it's like, eh, it might be a big deal for somebody to know, but also, I wasn't telling somebody about something that is this off the wall and weird is it's something that I don't do lightly and I have to trust the person and also kind of know that they're gonna be cool with it. So it's something that I play a little close to the best. I've been. I've been a little more open about it lately with some people, but it's usually something that I don't talk about very much with others because, you know, it's weird, and also, it's none of their business.

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Kayla: Right.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Which. It's a little bit to have a detriment to succeed, though, because we're both extroverts. Sorry, you were about to ask something.

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Kayla: No, I was. I was literally going to ask, like, is that. Can that be. Have you found that to be isolating at all or. Or have detrimental effects? Like, I'm sure it's great to have, you know, a community that you can go to online, but, you know, feeling the need to play it close to the vest, which I totally understand. Like, I play everything in my life close to the vest, even when it's not, you know, something this important and personal. So, yeah, I was kind of interested to hear about, oh, if it's detrimental to both of your extroversion, I'm sure.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: That you can ask Suksy about how she feels about it and everything, but it's a little isolating. But there's other aspects of my life which I don't talk to with other people about that are very personal, important to me. I'm a little used to it and everything, but the few friends that we did let in on that loop have been pretty good, been fairly supportive. Nobody's really, like, went, oh, that's fucking weird. I don't want to talk to you ever again. Most of the people have been pretty chill about it, but like I said, that's also because I am very selective about that. But for the people that do know Suxi and everything, she seems to have a lot of fun switching out and hanging out with people IRL instead of online.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: As for the online community, we have some friends who are on there, but we've been just getting less and less active on the. In the Tulpa community, mostly because a lot of it is just, oh, I need help. I'm a newbie. I never read any of the guides, which I should have, and maybe I should have checked the sidebar and read it, but can I ask a question that you've heard 200 times before?

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Chris: That's so funny.

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Chris: That sounds exactly like the Cicada community, where it's like they have this problem. I don't know. If you listen to our other episode, we have an episode on Cicada 3301, and their community is similar where it's like they want to have new members come in, but at the same time, all the new members come in and don't read any of the stuff and don't get caught up and don't do their own research. And then they find that they're answering questions over and over again. It's, it's interesting how communities evolve similarly.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, it's, there are some problems with the community, and one of them is that there's, once you've made a tulpa, most of the time there's nothing else for you to do except try to help other people answer their questions, and that's not exactly fulfilling. And there's other multiple communities that I've heard of which focus a lot more on, you know, living day to day lives and how to function as somebody who's a multiple and everything else which the Tulpa community just pretty much utterly dropped the ball. And there's also a lot of people who you would think there'd be some more follow through, but a lot of the people who seem to get into this are desperate. They're lonely, they can't socialize well, and they're like, I could make a pony I could touch butts with.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So they just kinda, yeah, they, so a lot of them, I think, get into it for not the best reasons. And, you know, once they realize, oh, wait, this isn't what I thought it would be, and, oh, no, if only somebody told me, and they just kind of drop off. So.

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Chris: Yeah, because it's like you were saying earlier, it seems like the gravity of sort of creating another life, it's, you know, is when you mention, like, people don't know what they're getting into necessarily. It's that, it seems like maybe it's that it's really fascinating to me that the community doesn't have as much ongoing support. Sounds like you're saying it's more about, like, the initial process. Yeah, that's too bad.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: I think a lot of the community building and the post creation stuff happens on the Discord networks and everything, but even then, a lot of the people on there, and I'm sorry, community, but a lot of y'all are vapid. So it's, you know, you'll either go in there and it's all the hosts talking about video games or a lot of tulpas going, Lola, lol. I'm so cute and lol, random and not a fully developed person and everything. And I'm just like, well, okay. Like, succing might be like, oh, hey, what about this philosophical concept or something? Or I just want to talk about music and music creation methods or something, or I'll go on there and it's like, hey, I want to have a solid conversation with somebody. And it's. Yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And part of it also is that the community, it tends to have, younger people, usually in, like, their teenagers to early twenties and everything.

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Chris: I was about to ask that. Okay, that's. Yeah, interesting.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: See, I'm. I'm a psychic.

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Chris: No, that's good.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: That's.

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Chris: Because, again, that's like, it tells me that I'm sort of on the right track. You know, we're. We're simpatico here. In the interview, Kayla, did you have any additional questions for Nikto, or do you want to move on to talking to Suksi, if we may?

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Kayla: I guess one of my favorite questions, you know, when I first did the research, my favorite question to ask is kind of like, what do you wish people knew about tulpas and Tulpa Mansi? Like, what are some misconceptions that people have that you wish that they didn't?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: You know what? I'm gonna flip that a little bit because, quite frankly, nobody knows about this stuff. It's too out there. It's too esoteric. There's not, like, at best, you might get a couple of references in stuff like, there was an adventure time one, and really, that was more of an aggregor as opposed to a tulpa. Anyway, you know, so they just. There might be some misconceptions in media, but it is such a. It's very unknown. I mean, let's be fair. Most normies don't even know what furries are, so they're not going to know what a tulpa is, you know? So I don't. I frankly, I don't think that it's big enough to have some misconceptions about it. And there's.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: I forget who it was, but it was somebody in the last episode about topos that you talked about how, oh, people are worried about the public face of the community, and they don't want to look bad. And it's like, yeah, but you already are gonna be weirdos. Let's. Let's just. Let's just bury that. Let's just end that right now. You already are going to be a fucking weirdo to people. That's be all. And end all the. The end of it. You know, people are gonna think this is weird, and that's fine. So maybe you shouldn't worry about looking bad for the public because you're. You already have your pants down, my dude. You're good. You're done. Right?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So as for misconceptions, honestly, a lot of the stereotypes that I can think of, for the very few people who I've heard of who hear about this and don't go, oh, that's neat. And go, oh, well, different folks, I guess. Right. You know, for the very few people who have been critical of the community, that haven't been in the community itself. Mmm. They're mostly just like, oh, look at these stereotypical nerds who just want to. Want to fuck ponies or something. And it's like, well, they're not exactly wrong with some of those stereotypes, so. Oh, interesting, right?

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Chris: Yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah. I would say we're too small to have any misconceptions if I wanted to shrink it down to something short.

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Chris: Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned aggregor, by the way.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, I think you referenced it. But an egregore is, there's an occult version of the definition. There's a sociological version of the definition. But the idea is that it is an idea that a lot of people think of and put thought into and made exist that affects the people who believe in it. So if you wanted to go the more spooky route, like the people who worry that everybody believing in Slender man made a slender man, that's like more of an occult perspective. But from a sociological perspective, it's something like the idea of money or justice. These aren't things that exist in nature. These aren't physical things. Numbers aren't a physical thing. But the idea of money and justice definitely affects us in real, tangible ways. And it's something that's a collective idea.

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Chris: Right?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Santa Claus?

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Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Like, it exists even though it's not physical.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It's a big collective, conscious idea that affects everybody. So that, so, like, when they. I think it was the adventure time episode where they're like, oh, it's. It's a tulpa. It's an idea that everybody believed in enough that made it real. It's like, no, that's an aggregor. Tulpas are created by one person and then can it go out and interact with other people and everything? It's a different bag of cats.

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Kayla: Right, right.

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Chris: You know what an aggregor is?

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Kayla: What?

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Chris: Roko's basilisk.

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Kayla: Don't.

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Chris: Sorry. We have an upcoming episode on that. Sorry, I didn't mean to tangent there.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Heck yeah. No, no, it's a teaser.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Like, I think I even read about. There was this back during the spiritualist movement, I think was when it was where people, these occultists got together and tried to make somebody, I think, named Peter or something, and they came up with, like, a bunch of details about it, this person. And then, like, one day they saw him walking down the street and freaked out or something. If I can find that, I will send it to you if that might be relevant to that episode.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris: And then Kayla will complain to me that she won't be able to sleep, and that'll be great.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Well, I mean, they didn't make him into, like, a murder jerk. He was just, like, this cool dude that they were all like, let's all imagine this cool dude. And then he just was there someday.

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Kayla: And then he just was there.

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Chris: Okay. I guess if somebody's gonna manifest like that, it's better that he's a cool dude.

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Kayla: Yes. I'd prefer a cool dude.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Same with them tulpas, though.

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Kayla: Oh, yeah. Like, that's something that was interesting in the research, was just listening to people or reading what people had to say about how sometimes it's necessarily not something you can control. And some people have tulpas that maybe they don't have a great relationship with. And that was interesting to me. I'm glad that it sounds like you and succeed get along very well and aren't stuck in something like that.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: If you can control it, then it's not a fully developed tulpa. I'm just gonna say that right up. But, you know, just because it's different from how you started out and. And it might not be what you can expect, you could just, you know, maybe try to communicate and work together and everything, but, yeah, I know people who, the tulpas and the hosts do not get along well at all, and it's mostly problem if they need to find a really open minded couples therapist.

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Chris: That sounds like that could be stressful if you have a head mate that. Yeah, that you don't get along with. So. So, yeah, I think maybe if we could talk to Suksy now, if that's okay with you and her.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. All right.

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Chris: Hello. Hello.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Hello. How's it going?

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Kayla: Good. How's it going with you?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, pretty good. Fucking nice day out and everything. All right. Are we still recording and everything? Are y'all on a break or what?

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Kayla: Oh, I mean, we're still recording. We're good to go.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: All right, cool. Hey, what's up, baby girl? How you doing?

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Kayla: Thanks so much for chatting with us.

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Chris: Yeah, so we're talking to suksy now.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It's succ. How you doing?

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Chris: That's. It's. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I'm just like, he's starstruck. It's really cool to be talking to Atulpa. I'm just a little. I'm a little bouncy over here.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It's all right. I'll sit. Oh, yeah. As famous as you could get, I guess. Don't worry, I'll send you an autograph.

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Kayla: Please do.

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Chris: Oh, yeah, please.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, shit. All right. That'd be funny, but, yeah.

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Chris: All right, so, yeah, so a little bit famous. Like, how did you guys. How did you and your tulpamancer become somewhat well known in. In the community?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Fuck if I know. Probably because of that fucking vice article and everything. What would that misquote and all that kind of got a lot of attention and everything. And then it was like, oh, hey, I want to do a blog. And he was like, yeah, I'll draw it and everything. So we did that for a bit. Yeah, we kind of dropped off on that because we sort of ran out of funds for the Internet for a little bit there, and we just haven't picked it up. But, we actually plan on opening that back up again and maybe making a Twitter, because he doesn't fucking use Twitter and everything. So I may as well. I think that'd be fun.

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Chris: We noticed that because I was. When, I. Yesterday, when were kind of doing some preliminary, like, research and stuff, I was like, I gotta find their Twitter. And it was like, oh, no, Twitter.

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Chris: So I know.

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Chris: I did notice that.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, I'll probably figure it out. He tried it for a bit and he was like, I can't fucking figure this thing out, but I probably could.

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Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Twitter is. It has its pluses and minuses. Right.

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Kayla: We asked Nikto to kind of, like, talk, to introduce himself a little bit. So would you mind introducing yourself a little bit for our listeners? Can you talk? I mean, we know that you're succeed, obviously, but can you. Yeah. Let us know what you. What you're like, what you look like. Just give us a little background on who you are.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: All right. Sure. Let's see. For a big, titled Long Tail monster hanging out in somebody's head most of the time. That's pretty fun. Let's see. Sushi tulpa. How's it going? Non, Oh wait. What is it? Non corporeal american. There you go. That's pretty PC, I suppose. Let's see, what do I like? I like fucking punk rock music and everything. Sort of play that out in the astral plane or Wonderland or however you want to. However you personally view it inside of your paradigm and all that. Mostly kind of fuck around and do fuck all, but chill out, have friends, talk with people and everything. I like chicken fingers, I guess, and street food and blueberries.

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Chris: Nikto did mention the chicken fingers. And it sounds like you also are an artist because I think I heard you say something about illustrating a blog.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: No, see, here's the thing. I can't draw for shit, but Nikto can. So when we do the blogs, I answer the questions and everything, but he just illustrates it. Sort of a tag team effort. It's interesting how people have different skill sets, even if they have like the same hid and everything. I suppose. Yeah, that's fascinating. I just. I don't have a fucking patience for it. I'm a very id based personality type, if you haven't guessed. So I'm like, yeah, I'll fucking draw something. I don't want to spend 3 hours on it. And I scribble something out real quick and then it's like, well, shit, this looks dumb. So like, yeah, he just does the drawing for it and everything. And it was to help him also learn how to do like, shit on a tablet and all that.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Like I said, sorry for people. We haven't exactly kept up on that. Life has been fucking crazy, especially lately.

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Chris: So how have you. We asked Nikto the same question, but how have you been dealing with coping with this experience where we're shut inside and. And can't move around? I know you're in. In Nikto's head, in the astral plane, sort of anyway, but like, what is. What is that like for you? Is it any different at all?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Honestly, it hasn't really been that much of a difference other than, like, the general vibe of things being a little bit more stressed out. But, you know, I ain't exactly tethered to him 24/7 so, you know, I. I could just fuck off and float off wherever I want because I do what I want to. But, yeah, I don't know, honestly, it hasn't really been affecting me very much. So just kind of like in a tertiary sense, I suppose. But yeah, I've been a bingochie.

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Chris: Yeah, it would be nice to be able to kind of float off and go where I would like to go. We've been for three weeks.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yeah. There's. There's, like, plenty of people on the community and everything. Oh, I wish my tulpo was physical, or I wish I had a far and everything. It's like, you know that when you have a body and everything, you have to fucking take care of it and go to a job so you can get money for food and housing and all this other shit and responsibilities and everything. Now, quite frankly, I like not having to do any of that fucking shit. Hell, if I see, like, a dress or something that I want, I don't have to physically go and buy it. I could just snap my fingers and imagine it and poof, there it is, you know?

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Chris: So there sound like it has its advantages.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yeah, it does. Advantages, disadvantages. That's how everything is sometimes. So. Yeah.

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Kayla: What are some disadvantages?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Let's see. Disadvantages. Don't really have as much of a social circle. Can't express myself very much. Not exactly easiest getting dates. So, you know, it's. I suspect it would be like if you were a ghost, you know. So advantages and disadvantages on the ghost circuit there, I suppose. But, you know, it's like you said, you got ups and downs and everything, but. Yeah, I think the biggest problem for me is just kind of wish I had more people to talk to outside of the Internet and everything, which is why we've been slowly talking to more people about this sort of thing. Lowering those standards for who gets to be in the know a little bit.

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Chris: That makes sense.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah.

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Chris: Yeah. Nikdo mentioned some of that as well.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: The few friends who I know. It's also like, I kind of understand where it would be. Like, it might be problematic, especially for people who wouldn't necessarily be so understanding. Maybe employment or something like that. Heaven forfend. We ever try to get into politics, so. Yeah, probably never gonna happen, but you never know, right? Oh, shit. We'd be a democracy. Two party platform, all in one. It'd be great.

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Kayla: Honestly, I feel like that could work.

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Chris: I don't know. Yeah, you have some strengths and weaknesses, all kind of helping each other. It doesn't sound that bad. You mentioned it's hard to get dates. Was that. Was that just a joke? Or was that something like, have you gone on dates with a. With anybody or attempted to.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Let's see. Sort of like, I sometimes, like, talk to people and everything online, and I've sort of, like, kind of went out on dates with the dude's girlfriend and everything, but it's sort of been getting to know each other, but, yeah, it's not exactly something you could put on your Tinder profile and everything. Hey, want to hang out with an imaginary friend? No, don't worry. I'll just possess this meat sack. It'll be fine. You know, it's, Actually, that would be pretty fucking funny and everything. We should do that just to see if we get any likes or whatever.

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Kayla: You definitely get responses.

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Chris: Oh, yeah, I bet you would. Yeah.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Hell yeah. Well, yeah, there'd be responses. Probably not a lot of dates and everything, but, you know, I. But I also do have, like, my own personal social circle of friends and everything and people that I've connected more than the dude has. So, you know, I talk with them, been on dates and stuff once in a while, so that's really cool.

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Chris: And that brings me, actually, into one of my other questions was, which is, do you have any relationships with individuals that don't know that you're a tulpa? That just assume that, like, you're a regular, like. Like a singleton, you know, like, you, as you put it, meatbag. Is there anybody that, like, you're friends with that doesn't know that does.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Isn't in the. No. No. Because I feel like that would probably be a little bit duplicitous, wouldn't it? You know, it's like, hey, by the way, I have a secret. I'm imaginary or something. That. That would be. Yeah, that sounds like it would come out of a really poorly written young adults book, which, you know, actually, that would be a pretty. Nah, that would still probably be, like, trash because they'd be like, oh, I'm secretly a ghost vampire dragon or something would probably be more along the lines of that.

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Chris: But you have to have a vampire aspect somewhere in there.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Vampire, dragon, ghost catgirl, something or other. Definitely cat ears. And you. One bite would turn you into one, two, or some sort of fancy like that. But no, I. I wouldn't really do that. Like, it wouldn't. I don't think it would feel right. And I am way too lazy to lie that long about shit, so it wouldn't work out. I don't think morality based on is.

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Kayla: My kind of thing.

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Chris: That's mostly what my morality is based on as well.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: I am energy efficient. Morality.

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Kayla: Oh, I like that.

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Chris: Were you able to listen to. We probably should have asked this question up front, but were you able to listen to our podcast episode, or did Nikto tell you about it.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yeah, no, well, we sort of. Usually, if it's like a podcast or a movie or something like that, we'll usually, like, hang out and listen to it together, even if we're not paying attention to each other. And since, you know, kind of got that collective data banks anyway, it's like, oh, yeah, no, I can. I can remember it and everything, even if I wasn't there. I will say, though, that we usually, like, there are some stuff which we do keep private from each other, usually, like, personal conversations and everything. And it's sort of the mental equivalent of not looking at somebody's cell phone while they're on it. But, yeah, with, like, podcasts and movies and everything else, we're usually, like, both enjoying this, especially when we're on the clock and listen to podcasts. So. Yeah, no, I. I listened to it.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It was good. Shocked to find out that people are talking about me, and then I was like, they want to fucking do an interview with me. You got to fucking email them, dog.

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Chris: So I'm glad that you. You pushed him to email us because were super excited to get the email.

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Chris: We're like, what?

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Chris: We get to talk to Nick, toe and Succie. That's crazy. That's awesome. So thank you for pushing him.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yeah, no. He was like, yeah, I want to do that, too. That would be hella dope. And we could tell people that vice is a piece of shit. I guess so, you know, you heard it here first. Yeah. Hell, I was surprised y'all didn't find us on the. On the Reddit and everything yourselves, but, yeah, no, it was. I was like, oh, wow, they actually want to talk to us. That's exciting. An actual podcast.

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Chris: I don't know if we're actual. Yeah, we're trying. We're attempting.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Well, I mean, you're not fictional. Believe me, I'd know.

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Kayla: Yeah, I guess.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: I guess you would know because as a side note, look at, like, looking into a mirror or seeing a photo and everything when I'm up at the front is a little disorienting, and I try very hard not to think about it.

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Chris: So interesting. I never even thought about that.

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Kayla: Yeah, that makes sense that, yeah, you're. Your physical exterior doesn't really match what you actually look like. That would be jarring.

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Chris: And do you have seen some pictures of you online? Is that. Do you have a constant, like, a consistent physical or not physical, but a consistent appearance that you maintain, or is it more fluid?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Usually I keep the same appearance and everything. Because I fucking like it and everything. But of course, you know, not being limited to physical bounds and whatnot, of course it could change shape if I wanted to, and sometimes I do, but, like, 99% of the time, I'm in the same form and everything. I'm very comfortable with it and like it very much.

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Kayla: Nice.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It's, it is slightly different from the initial idea that the dude had for the form and everything. I just tweaked it a bit, deviation and all. For those of you who might remember from the other episode, it's a sort of sign that the tulpas actually fully developed and everything when they could do shit on their own. The host had no say in it and everything. It's an independent sort of deal. But, yeah, no, I I was like, no, I like this. Just want to tweak this, that, and the other thing, and then I'm good. So, yeah, no, I keep pretty much the same form. Pointy, horn ears, three eyes, big smiley teeth full of mouth. Wait, no. Mouth full of teeth. Switch that.

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Chris: It's pretty, it's a pretty cool appearance, I have to say. I dig it.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, it's fun to draw.

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Kayla: Speaking of your appearance, this question might not make any sense, but I've always wondered, like, what does it feel like? Can you describe what it feels like to be a tulpa? Do you, when you're not fronting, does it feel like you have a physical form? Like, what does that feel like?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Let me think of a way to phrase this. The best way that I can describe it for you was that it feels like how you feel when you're very deep into a daydream or actually dreaming, where you feel like a form and everything, and you feel solid in yourself and all that. But it's also a little more conceptual, and you don't get the nuances or anything else of a physical form. If you being upfront in a bod feels heavy, and you also notice all of the little aches and pains of just existing and everything, like, leaning over too much and all that. But, like, when you're in a dream or daydreaming and everything, you don't even think about those little things and everything, but you could still, like, if somebody in the dream slapped you'd be like, oh, I've been slapped and everything.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So it, you might not even physically feel it, but you kind of feel the concept of it.

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Chris: I like that analogy.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: So, yeah, it's kind of like that.

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Chris: Because that helps, because, you know, we've experienced dreaming and daydreaming, so that really helps kind of, like, ground the concept, right.

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Kayla: As a. As a tulpa. Do you sleep? Like, do you sleep? Do you dream? Is that. Are those things that happen to you independent of what's going on in nature? Brain?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, I sleep, but I don't need to because sleep is mostly a physical function, but it's a little bit of a psychological function. But I sleep because I like to sleep. So sometimes it'll be like the doodle. Woken up eating breakfast while all groggy headed and gone off to work or something, and then I'll show up hours later, like stretching in the bathrobe. It's like, oh, hey, you're finally fucking up. I'm like, oh, yeah, I am. I got such good sleep. But, yeah, like, it's voluntary and everything, but, yeah, I'll sometimes have dreams and everything, which figure that one out mostly, like chasing a squirrel or something, that are very simple stuff. But also I've done things where it's like, you know, popped over into Nikto's dreams sometimes, and we've sometimes shared dreams. That's what a lot of people try to do.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: We doesn't happen very often because, like, dude heard about, like, lucid dreaming and everything, and everybody's like, oh, you should do it's great, and everything else, but then he realized that if he learned how to do stuff while he was dreaming, he would probably feel guilty about not doing something efficient or, you know, figuring something out or whatever while he was dreaming. So he's like, you know what? I think I'm just gonna keep that loose. But, yeah, sometimes. Sometimes we will pop. Will pop over together and everything, or, like, fall asleep thinking about, like, oh, yeah, what if were like, I don't know, writing dragon motorcycles up skyscrapers, fighting, fucking, I don't know, flying snowmen or something. You know, just some. Just, you know, those falling asleep thoughts and everything. We'll do that together, too.

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Kayla: That's, like, such a great little bonus that I never would have even thought about. That sounds, yeah. Like a really enjoyable social, like, intimate experience.

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Chris: Yeah, that's really interesting.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yeah.

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Chris: One of the things that I definitely wanted to ask you, because this is one of the most interesting bits to me, is what did it feel like to come into existence for you? Like, how did that. You know, because, like this meatbags, you know, we don't remember anything from before were, what, like three years old? So the process of coming into existence is like, whatever we have no idea. Right.

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Chris: But.

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Chris: But do you have a perspective on that? Do you remember bits from it? Like, how did that feel to you?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yeah. No, I remember stuff like that and everything. And let me tell you, it is a lot easier coming into yourself and figure out what the fuck is going on when you're not doing everything from scratch like you do when you're a baby, because, like, I. You know, we already had, like, the concept of moving around what a foot is, how hungry works, you know, and how words are and everything in the early stages and everything. Like, I still had, like, what? When I was still developing and everything, the dude tried to make sure that I was extremely independent and everything, so he wasn't, like, trying to. He had, like, some baseline things for, like, maybe personality traits and form and everything else, but it was kind of like a. Just a stepping block that I could work with, something to grab onto.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: But at first, it was. I was very. I was a bit nonverbal, you know? So kind of communicating with direct emotion or concepts and everything. People in the community call it tulpish, but honestly, if you think about. That's kind of where everybody started off, isn't it? You know, you were thinking before you were verbal. And also, it's more like the concept of hungry or the concept of laughter or something like that, before there were words put into your head about it.

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Chris: Interesting.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And, oh, yeah, this is funny. Whenever I wanted his attention for, like, a few months, I would, like, shove an earworm into his head. Specifically, the he man heyadhe hey, yeah. Song up inside of his head, and he'd be like, oh, God damn it. She wants something.

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Kayla: Now that seems like an effective communication tool. Yeah, I'm gonna start using that.

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Chris: Oh, yeah, please don't do that to me.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, yes. But it's, like, dank memes of communication. It's perfect. So, you know, like, I would. Maybe I would see something that I would like, and I'd be like, hey, yeah, God damn it. Okay, fine. You like that thing, you know? And then, like, after hanging out and trying and working and all this other stuff, I was slowly got better about translating those into words and, you know, it. Like, I sort of knew what everything was already, but it was also, like, kind of. There's a difference between seeing people drive a car and actually doing it yourself.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: You know, you could read a whole book about driving a car and everything and watch movies about driving cars, but until you actually do it, you. There's. And you have that experience, then you don't really know what it's like and all. So, you know, that's. That's how it is a lot. It's not a lack of knowledge, but it's a lot of lack of experience and being able to have those experiences, but having those fucking cliff notes on what existence is and all that is pretty fucking useful.

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Kayla: Sure.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: That makes sense.

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Chris: So I guess to sort of bring it on home here a little bit. The last question I have is just for you, is there anything that you would like to say about tulpas? Tulpomancy yourself? Anything?

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Let me think. One, check out my show. I'll throw flyers out all over the mind space. Two, if you're thinking about doing this, like, see, like, fucking do some research and everything, but it's not exactly something that you should be doing lightly. Especially because if you do it right, it's gonna be fucking permanent. And you shouldn't really bring something into existence if it's just on a whim or because you're lonely or anything. So probably don't do that. I don't know. If you. If you run into. If one of your friends comes out and it's like, hey, I have a tulpa or some other weird like that, don't be a goon, and just kind of be cool about it, even if you don't get it or understand it. Just like, don't be a shitbag about it at the very least.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And usually if somebody comes to you and they tell you that sort of thing, they're actually hoping that you'll ask questions and everything. So, you know, feel free to. I don't jet that you put me on the spot. I don't really know what I'd say to the world if I was going to be saying something.

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Chris: Well, you can. Yeah. That was a pretty good answer. And don't worry about it. You know, our audience is. It's. I mean, it's, you know, it's not huge yet. Hopefully it will be.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: But, you know, no, they're in the weird shit anyway.

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Kayla: Very true.

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Chris: That is true. That is true.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Do you want to hear about the first time I switched? That's a giggle, please.

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Kayla: Definitely, yes.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Okay. So dude was talking on, like, one of the tulpa chats and everything, and I was talking through him and, like, working the hands and everything else, and then we sort of accidentally swapped places and everything. And so I immediately freak out.

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Kayla: Oh, no.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: I stand up and try to get away from the computer because I'm like, oh, what the fuck is this? And then I fall flat on our fucking face because the knees bent backwards.

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Chris: Oh.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: And I was like. I was like, oh, fuck. But, yeah, since then, that's been. It's been a lot better and everything. And like I said, I just try not to think about it, but just sort of let the muscle memory do the work for me.

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Kayla: Right.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: But, yeah, that was a giggle.

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Chris: That's funny.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: It was very unsettling. Like, even knowing that was a thing people could do, experiencing it was. Was very different.

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Kayla: Cool. I mean, I think that kind of wraps up the questions on our end for both of you. So, I mean, thank you again, Sukzi, for chatting with us. I think that.

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Chris: I think.

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Kayla: I mean, we obviously really appreciate it and are trying not to be starstruck our audience.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Oh, hell, no. I'm just an imaginary monster goal like the rest of you.

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Chris: Isn't that true?

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Kayla: Yeah, our audience is gonna. Gonna really dig this. So thanks. Yeah, thanks for chatting with us.

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Chris: Yeah, and if you.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Yeah, anytime. But, yeah, no, y'all are dope and everything. If you want to talk about weird shit, y'all have us on, discord and all that. Yeah, Nico's giving them peace on stuces out.

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Chris: Yeah. I love talking about rich. And as soon as you guys get your twitter running, let us know, and, you know, we'll give you a follow and we'll.

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Chris: We'll at you.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: Hell, yeah. Plugs. And if people wanted to ask us stuff and everything, I'm sure that they could. And they. Everything like that. Well, especially if we have a twitter, then they can ask us that stuff. So hit us up on the Internet.

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Chris: Bye, sug.

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Chris: See?

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Chris: Tell nickto we say bye as well.

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Nycto and Siouxsie: All right. Bye, baby girls. I'll catch you all on that flip.

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Chris: Bye.

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Chris: Bye.

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Kayla: Holy shit. That was awesome. That was the best. Oh, my God. That's my. That's my analysis. That's my reaction. Thoughtful reaction to what we just did.

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Chris: Very insightful.

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Kayla: That's how amped I am.

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Chris: Mmm. Very insightful. Yeah, yeah, no, I thought that was awesome, too. Obviously, I was all sort of, like, giddied out on it. I just. I just love weird things. I'm sorry, I just do.

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Kayla: Was there anything. Any revelations that you came away with, anything that was answered? Any, like, burning questions that you had, or was there any. Did that. Did that leave you with any new questions?

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Chris: I don't know. It's tough to say with stuff like this.

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Chris: Like, I think both.

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Chris: To answer the revelation bit, I would say that it was interesting to me when I asked the question about how did it feel to become real, to turn into a real thing. I just hadn't considered that. That aspect of coming into existence. Right. Like, when you're a child and you have the childhood amnesia, you're still learning basically everything, right? Right. You're learning, like, how to walk, how to talk, what things to put in your mouth and what not to put in your mouth, who your parents are. And you don't have to do that a second time, according to Suksi, is that was a thing that made that, I don't know, easier, different. At least that part was interesting to me.

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Kayla: What about you? This. I totally just thought about this. Something that I wish we had asked and maybe we can revisit. This was asking about the concept of stasis, especially because we talked so much about stasis in our original two episodes and how horrifying it sounds. And it would have been nice to get a different perspective on it, I don't think. Sooksi, from what I understand, it doesn't seem like Tsukzi and Nikto have experienced stasis, but, yeah, just the talking about the process of becoming real was fascinating. And then also talking about what it feels like to exist, the wonderland or the mindscape. And suc sees answers to that were so thoughtful and, yes, very, like, theoretical, but easy to understand.

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Chris: Yeah. It was intuitive for me to kind of understand, like, because I. When you asked that question. Yeah, I didn't know how that was, how that would feel either. But it. I kind of understand it now to some. Like, obviously, I'm not a tulpa, but, like, I've had dreams, right? And I've daydreamed, and that state of being, at least, like, kind of makes sense.

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Kayla: Right? Right.

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Chris: It just. I don't know.

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Chris: And then the other thing is, it just.

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Chris: It makes sense too. Like, isn't somebody in a dream that I'm having kind of a tulpa?

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Kayla: I don't like to think about that because I have really messed up dreams, right?

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Chris: But, like, if I dream about someone in my dream, that's not me, right. In my dream, I'm not controlling their actions or their thoughts or anything. They are just, like, it's. Stuff happens to me in my dream, and sometimes the stuff that happens to me are other people in my dream. So isn't that, like, literally a tulpa?

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Kayla: I don't know if it's literally a tulpa, but it's definitely adjacent.

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Chris: It's something my brain is creating that has its own autonomy, right? Exists only in my head.

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Kayla: But I I was gonna say, like, I think that there's some degree of, like, intention, but as we learned in our original episodes, sometimes you can have a walk in, or sometimes you can create a tulpa unintentionally. So, yeah, maybe. I don't know.

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Chris: Well, but it also seems like there's some transition, at which point the tulpa is self aware and reliant. Right. Like, it starts with intentionality.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: And you could say that, like, every night I intentionally go to sleep.

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Kayla: Mmm.

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Chris: Right. But then after that, unintentionally, I have dreams that sometimes include entities, people.

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Kayla: Right, right.

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Chris: Things. Dragons.

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Kayla: If I'm lucky, I got weird ones in there. Something else that I thought was interesting was when Nikdo talked about the. Some of the difficulties that the community itself faces, especially with the. Like, especially with Reddit, where it seems to be a community specifically geared towards newbies or people just starting out on their tulpa journey, as opposed to there being a space for people who've been doing this for a long time. Like, Nikdo and Sooksi have been together for six years, which, as they said, was ancient by Tulpa standards. I thought it was. So the ways that some of our topics tie back to each other never ceases to amaze me.

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Kayla: Like, I did not think there would be that comparison to make between Cicada 3301 and tulpas, which is the new community and kind of clashing with the existing community and not ideologically, but just simply the nature of the beast with, like, if you're new, you're gonna be asking a lot of questions that have probably been answered a thousand times. And if you're old, yes, you want to help, be a shepherd, but also, you deserve to have your own space, too.

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Chris: The tale is old as time.

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Kayla: Song is old as rhyme.

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Chris: Mm.

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Kayla: Were those. Was there a tulpa in that movie? No.

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Chris: I don't know. It kind of feels like there are tulpas in every Disney movie. I guess they're real.

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Kayla: Yeah. Like, they're in the, like, Lumiere.

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Chris: So I shouldn't say real. I should say physical.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: So this is the part of the episode where we would, like. We would normally say, maybe cults are just weird, but we already did that for tulpas.

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Kayla: We said it was just weird, right?

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Chris: We said it was just weird.

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Kayla: I mean, I. My hella weird analysis, my original analysis does. I don't think it's been swayed by this interview.

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Chris: No.

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Kayla: If nothing else, it's been strengthened. I didn't come away from chatting with Nikto and Succi, thinking there were any more cult like aspects to the group.

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Chris: Even though he said, sometimes the community can be difficult.

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Kayla: Yeah, but things can be difficult. Cult like.

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Chris: Okay. Okay. So that didn't. That didn't sway you?

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Kayla: No.

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Chris: Yeah, I don't think it swayed me either.

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Kayla: In fact, it just made me, like, think is way. It just resolidified. How cool. I think that.

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Chris: Yeah, I just, like I said at the beginning, well, not really the beginning. The beginning of our debrief here. Like, I love weird shit, man. I love different stuff. It's.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: It's just very interesting.

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Kayla: We have that there are one life.

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Chris: People that are so. That have such wildly different experiences.

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Kayla: Right. And there's just. There's no. There's an infinite way to have experiences. There's an infinite way to experience being a human being.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: In this universe. So, like, do you.

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Chris: And, like, the other thing is that, you know, we're skeptics on this show, right? Like, to think so, anyway. Rational skeptics. Aren't we cool? So this seems like the type of thing where, like, maybe we could be skeptical or that would invite skepticism because of how, I don't know, unexpected or different or strange it is. And the thing that I was thinking about, too, was like, what's. I don't know, like, what's the difference between this and that video that we watched? Speaking of tying things together, of Ramtha and Jay Z Knight on the. What was that? The Merv Griffin show.

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Kayla: Merv Griffin, one of them.

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Chris: I think it was Merv Griffin, one of those guys. Anyway, that seemed very similar to me. Right. Where, like, Jay Z sort of went into a different state, talked like a different person, had some similar constructions to her sentences. But, you know, was. Was talking as though, you know, she was Ramtha.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: I don't know. I think there's, like, there's a couple ways to go to talk about this.

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Kayla: I mean, I can tell you why. I think that there's a huge difference in Ramtha.

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Chris: Yeah, well, I was going to say, too, but actually, I want to hear what you say.

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Kayla: I think that if Ramtha were not. If Jay Z Knight were not, because she's lying. She.

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Chris: Does she know that?

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Kayla: I strongly believe Jay Z Knight knows that she's lying, and that's just a belief. But even if she weren't, she's still manipulating people out of money. She is still. She has created a cult. She has harmed and possibly even, like, led to people's deaths with her teachings. She spreads racist rhetoric utilizing her platform. It's. If Jay Z Knight just wanted to hang out with Ramtha at home and they just were chill buddies, I don't care.

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Chris: Right. I think that's. That's. Yeah. There's two key differences to me. One is that. Is that it's just. Yeah, if it's just something that's your own thing that you're doing with your own head and your head mates, that's, you know, a big difference than saying to other people that, like, they have to engage in this and they're, you know, and then to exploit their. Whatever, you know, wallets and sometimes their health. And then I think the other thing, I think there is some, I don't know, like, falsification to it. Right. Like. Like nikto. And to my knowledge, other tulpamancers don't say that the tulpas in their heads are, like, actually from Atlantis or Lemuria or something.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: They're actual spirits from, you know, that. And, of course, that's the thing that lends the authority that allows you to manipulate people is by saying that. So. So I think. Yeah, I think it's, like, way different. It's just interesting to me that some of the, like, the similarities that at least on the surface, it looks like. And I also just wanted to address, like, why I'm skeptical of one but not the other. I just felt like it was responsible for. For us on our show to say something about that.

365
01:09:00,658 --> 01:09:13,805
Kayla: It just feels like. It almost feels. It doesn't feel like the word skeptical is applicable to tulpas because, like, they exist. This phenomenon exists.

366
01:09:13,917 --> 01:09:14,237
Chris: Right.

367
01:09:14,292 --> 01:09:18,845
Kayla: People have. The people do this.

368
01:09:19,037 --> 01:09:19,596
Chris: Yeah.

369
01:09:19,693 --> 01:09:28,613
Kayla: I mean, whether or, like, whatever you believe the tulpas are, that's a different thing. Like, you can be skeptical of what you think they are.

370
01:09:28,741 --> 01:09:29,636
Chris: Mm.

371
01:09:29,813 --> 01:09:37,541
Kayla: But being skeptical of Ramtha, I think, is more skeptical of, like, her business. Not even.

372
01:09:37,725 --> 01:09:46,917
Chris: Well, and I'm also skeptical of the fact that the. Her headmate, or whatever you want to call it, is actually a spirit from ancient civilization. Right.

373
01:09:46,933 --> 01:09:58,085
Kayla: You can be skeptical of the ability to channel, which is fake, as opposed to imaginary friends, which are well documented and real.

374
01:09:58,197 --> 01:09:58,517
Chris: Right.

375
01:09:58,573 --> 01:10:00,957
Kayla: In the sense that they all being said.

376
01:10:01,053 --> 01:10:10,400
Chris: That all being said. I still think that there's, like, a chance that Jay Z really believes her own drinks, her own Kool aid. I think a lot of these cult.

377
01:10:10,440 --> 01:10:13,672
Kayla: Leaders do for some reason. I don't think she does.

378
01:10:13,696 --> 01:10:18,136
Chris: You don't think she does. You think she's purely disingenuous. It's like impossible to tell, though, right?

379
01:10:18,168 --> 01:10:29,060
Kayla: Of course it's impossible to tell. But even if she does, even if she believes in this, she's still doing measurable damage in the world.

380
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:33,360
Chris: What if Ramtha is telling her that's doing good in the world?

381
01:10:33,480 --> 01:10:43,448
Kayla: That doesn't. I mean, impact. It's impact versus intent. If your intent is to pat somebody on the back, but then you hit them, too. You, like, pat them too hard and.

382
01:10:43,464 --> 01:10:48,168
Chris: Break their shoulder, that happens to me a lot. Cause I'm, like, really freaking ripped. You know what I'm saying?

383
01:10:48,224 --> 01:10:54,180
Kayla: You should probably spend some time figuring out how to not break people's shoulders.

384
01:10:55,240 --> 01:11:01,934
Chris: Or you could spend that time just pumping more iron in the gym. You can break bigger people's shoulders. Booyah.

385
01:11:02,102 --> 01:11:04,422
Kayla: I think you could probably break Ramza's shoulders.

386
01:11:04,486 --> 01:11:04,966
Chris: Yeah.

387
01:11:05,078 --> 01:11:05,942
Kayla: Lemurian war.

388
01:11:06,006 --> 01:11:42,208
Chris: Oh, I don't know. Yeah, he slew a lot of Atlanteans. I don't know. But to your point from just a minute ago. Yeah. I think, like, with. With tulpas, it's. It's one of those things where it comes back to, like, consciousness being this inherently necessarily subjective experience. So, like, there's almost, like, literally no way for me to say whether it's real or not because I cannot get into somebody else's head. So you kind of just have to take it at face value anyway because that's their subjective experience. Right, right. It's sort of like the whole thing with, like, with turing test and AI.

389
01:11:42,264 --> 01:11:42,544
Nycto and Siouxsie: Ooh.

390
01:11:42,592 --> 01:11:45,080
Chris: We tie it back to another episode. Let's tie it to all our episodes.

391
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:47,496
Kayla: I don't want to tie it to all our episodes. We have too many episodes.

392
01:11:47,688 --> 01:11:52,624
Chris: No, but the whole. The whole, like, our AI's concept. Like, well, I don't know. Are we.

393
01:11:52,752 --> 01:11:53,384
Kayla: Right, right.

394
01:11:53,432 --> 01:11:58,656
Chris: Like, I can't. In a purely solipsistic sense, I can't tell whether you're conscious or any of our listeners are.

395
01:11:58,688 --> 01:12:21,090
Kayla: Well, then you can get into the neuroscience of it about how we. Like, none of us have free will because our brains are doing things before we're even conscious of them. So, like, you can really go down a rabbit hole here, and ultimately, it's, like, hang out with your imaginary friends if that's what you want to do. Life is way too short. Don't bilk people out of money and harm them and tell them to not get treatment for their cancer so that they die. Just hang out with your brother.

396
01:12:21,130 --> 01:12:28,722
Chris: So, is Suksi, like, the light version of the dark Ramtha? Is that, like. Is that what that is? Is that like a. I have absolutely.

397
01:12:28,746 --> 01:12:29,642
Kayla: No idea what that means.

398
01:12:29,746 --> 01:12:32,978
Chris: You know, like, it's like there's the light tulpa and the dark tulpa.

399
01:12:33,074 --> 01:12:33,634
Kayla: It's like.

400
01:12:33,722 --> 01:12:34,810
Chris: And they're just opposed.

401
01:12:34,930 --> 01:12:35,874
Kayla: The dark side.

402
01:12:36,002 --> 01:12:38,602
Chris: Yeah, it's like the light side of the force and the dark side of the force.

403
01:12:38,746 --> 01:12:39,962
Kayla: I don't know. I don't think.

404
01:12:40,026 --> 01:12:41,490
Chris: I think so. I'm trying to.

405
01:12:41,530 --> 01:12:43,510
Kayla: I don't think that Romtha is a tulpa.

406
01:12:45,110 --> 01:12:48,862
Chris: I'm really trying to push this whole thing, man. I'm really trying to push this narrative.

407
01:12:48,926 --> 01:12:54,974
Kayla: I don't think Romp is a tulpa. I think that's an insult to tulpas everywhere and even the whole concept, look.

408
01:12:55,142 --> 01:12:57,110
Chris: Yeah, it's definitely a little bit insulting.

409
01:12:57,150 --> 01:12:59,142
Kayla: But, like, I don't mean that you're being insulted.

410
01:12:59,166 --> 01:13:17,282
Chris: I don't think it's. I don't think it's crazy to think that after all this time Jay Z has engaged in some similar practices or at least achieve some similar results that some doleful mancers might have, even if it's a totally separate process.

411
01:13:17,346 --> 01:13:18,146
Kayla: Sure, sure.

412
01:13:18,258 --> 01:13:26,426
Chris: I don't know. It's just interesting. And I also just like, I like Zusi and I don't like Romtha, so I want them to fight. That's all I'm saying.

413
01:13:26,498 --> 01:13:28,274
Kayla: I think Zuxi could kick.

414
01:13:28,362 --> 01:13:32,458
Chris: Yeah. In the ass. In the Wonderland.

415
01:13:32,514 --> 01:13:34,178
Kayla: In the Wonderland. Yeah.

416
01:13:34,354 --> 01:13:39,116
Chris: Yeah. It would be like that wizard battle between Merlin and that witch.

417
01:13:39,188 --> 01:13:41,292
Kayla: In that witch.

418
01:13:41,436 --> 01:13:41,836
Chris: What was.

419
01:13:41,868 --> 01:13:44,492
Kayla: Are you talking about Morgana?

420
01:13:44,596 --> 01:13:50,484
Chris: Is that. Her name was Morgana. Was that Morgana in that. In the. In the Disney movie?

421
01:13:50,532 --> 01:13:52,540
Kayla: Oh, I have no idea. You're talking about the Disney movie.

422
01:13:52,580 --> 01:13:55,348
Chris: No, I was like, no, there was some Rando witch.

423
01:13:55,404 --> 01:13:56,348
Kayla: Put some respect.

424
01:13:56,444 --> 01:13:57,428
Chris: The sword in the stone.

425
01:13:57,484 --> 01:13:58,372
Kayla: Morgana.

426
01:13:58,516 --> 01:13:59,516
Chris: Morgana was.

427
01:13:59,588 --> 01:14:05,680
Chris: Was a very interesting and cool character in the mythology. I was specifically talking about the Disney cartoon.

428
01:14:06,180 --> 01:14:06,836
Kayla: I have no idea.

429
01:14:06,868 --> 01:14:11,164
Chris: You don't remember that? There was like a Merlin fought this witch and it was like a magic battle.

430
01:14:11,292 --> 01:14:16,124
Kayla: I think that Suksi is Gandalf and Romtha is the Balrog.

431
01:14:16,292 --> 01:14:24,836
Chris: Mm. Not Saruman. Boy, this is getting way too nerdy. We gotta stop. This is. Let's please stop. This is horrible.

432
01:14:24,908 --> 01:14:25,680
Kayla: Saruman.

433
01:14:26,500 --> 01:14:30,228
Chris: Yeah, maybe we gotta dial back the nerd even further.

434
01:14:30,244 --> 01:14:34,860
Kayla: Supersy good. Romtha baddeh. That's what I have to say about that.

435
01:14:34,980 --> 01:14:38,000
Chris: I also have very nuanced opinion.

436
01:14:38,980 --> 01:14:42,812
Kayla: Thank you. I just wanna say thank you so much to Nikdo and Sukzi for talking to us.

437
01:14:42,836 --> 01:14:44,440
Chris: Yeah, it was super fun to chat.

438
01:14:44,780 --> 01:14:51,356
Kayla: And, like, kind of letting us into this really intimate process, and especially as.

439
01:14:51,388 --> 01:15:00,602
Chris: Outsiders, like, it's really. It's an honor for you to invite us into that experience a little bit so we can have some of it for ourselves. Thank you.

440
01:15:00,706 --> 01:15:01,430
Kayla: Yes.

441
01:15:02,450 --> 01:15:03,018
Chris: All right.

442
01:15:03,074 --> 01:15:04,570
Kayla: Is that it for this episode?

443
01:15:04,690 --> 01:15:13,386
Chris: That's pretty much it. We covered. We referenced other episodes. We talked about whether were gonna judge this, and we said no.

444
01:15:13,498 --> 01:15:23,642
Kayla: Oh, there's one thing we are missing. There's one thing we are missing. It is a Jurassic park reference. So the way we also haven't referenced fyre Fest, fire fest was a tulpa.

445
01:15:23,786 --> 01:15:26,594
Chris: Was Jurassic park the fyre fest of the nineties?

446
01:15:26,682 --> 01:15:28,470
Kayla: No, no.

447
01:15:29,490 --> 01:15:30,130
Chris: Kind of was.

448
01:15:30,170 --> 01:15:35,150
Kayla: No. Jurassic park was way more successful than Firefest.

449
01:15:35,530 --> 01:15:38,882
Chris: The food. Well, I don't actually. Jurassic park had better food, as I recall.

450
01:15:38,946 --> 01:15:43,950
Kayla: They had the jello, plus they had Mister DNA is a tulpa.

451
01:15:44,530 --> 01:15:48,434
Chris: We're just degenerating here, man. This is all we're doing is making references now.

452
01:15:48,482 --> 01:15:50,990
Kayla: Fire fest was a tulpa.

453
01:15:51,610 --> 01:15:52,162
Chris: What?

454
01:15:52,266 --> 01:15:55,066
Kayla: Because it existed only in Billy McFarlane's.

455
01:15:55,098 --> 01:15:56,370
Chris: I think I'm gonna have to cut you off.

456
01:15:56,450 --> 01:15:57,162
Kayla: I'm just saying.

457
01:15:57,266 --> 01:15:58,170
Chris: Oh, yeah, you're right.

458
01:15:58,210 --> 01:15:58,530
Kayla: Yeah.

459
01:15:58,610 --> 01:15:59,730
Chris: That makes it an aggro.

460
01:15:59,770 --> 01:16:01,466
Kayla: Wait, no, it only existed in Billy's head.

461
01:16:01,498 --> 01:16:02,514
Chris: Only in his head. You're right.

462
01:16:02,562 --> 01:16:04,554
Kayla: I think other people would try to.

463
01:16:04,682 --> 01:16:07,314
Chris: So you can have a party. It can be a tulpa.

464
01:16:07,442 --> 01:16:09,602
Kayla: I think Fyre festival is the tulpa of parties.

465
01:16:09,706 --> 01:16:17,082
Chris: Tulpa of parties. Yeah, I think you're right. All right, cool. Well, now that we've referenced every pop culture thing that we possibly can. This is Chris.

466
01:16:17,146 --> 01:16:20,144
Kayla: No, no. Sorry. We should say that.

467
01:16:20,192 --> 01:16:20,696
Chris: That was a good.

468
01:16:20,728 --> 01:16:21,288
Chris: This is Chris.

469
01:16:21,344 --> 01:16:23,856
Kayla: I know. Sorry. I was gonna say we.

470
01:16:23,928 --> 01:16:25,536
Chris: Chris. I'm probably gonna, like, crack my voice.

471
01:16:25,608 --> 01:16:30,888
Kayla: We should say that we'll be back with our regular ass programming in two weeks.

472
01:16:30,944 --> 01:16:31,540
Chris: Yeah.

473
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:34,096
Kayla: You will have a new topic for us.

474
01:16:34,208 --> 01:16:34,496
Chris: Yes.

475
01:16:34,528 --> 01:16:35,584
Kayla: It will be very good.

476
01:16:35,672 --> 01:16:51,290
Chris: Yeah. And not to say that we won't do other things like this in the future, though, because I really like to revisit stuff, especially when we can get some new insights or some cool people to talk to. It was really cool to be able to talk to someone who played an important role in a previous episode of ours.

477
01:16:51,330 --> 01:16:51,506
Kayla: Yes.

478
01:16:51,538 --> 01:16:52,034
Chris: It was awesome.

479
01:16:52,082 --> 01:16:59,778
Kayla: Yes. So thank you, Nick, do and Zuxi, for being in our first two episodes indirectly, and then being in this episode directly.

480
01:16:59,874 --> 01:17:07,306
Chris: Yeah. And thank you to all of our listeners, especially the ones that spread the good word. The gospel of cult are just weird.

481
01:17:07,418 --> 01:17:08,098
Kayla: Join our cult.

482
01:17:08,154 --> 01:17:14,020
Chris: It has borne fruit in this case. Thank you. This is Kayla and this is Chris.

483
01:17:14,100 --> 01:17:16,580
Kayla: And this is Ben. Cult or just weird?