S2E10 - The Soulmates (Twin Flames Universe, pt1)

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Kayla: It's the real thing. This is the real deal.

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Chris: Okay. So am I still gonna mention that we're recording naked?

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Kayla: I'm. Neither one of us are anywhere near naked.

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Chris: It's really hot, though. I really wanna take my shirt off.

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Kayla: Yeah, we'll do it.

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Chris: No. No.

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Kayla: Why not? Who stopped?

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Chris: Because it's weird.

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Kayla: No cult are just weird.

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Chris: No. There probably would be a cult around that.

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Kayla: I'm sure that's the name of the podcast. Guys.

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Chris: Welcome to culture. Just weird.

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Kayla: I'm Chris, and he's wearing his shirt.

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Chris: I'm still wearing my shirt, but it's drenched in sweat.

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Kayla: I'm Kayla. I'm not drenched in sweat because I am a delicate flower.

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Chris: Yeah. Okay. That's. Yeah, definitely what you are. How you doing today, Kayla?

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Kayla: Fine.

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Chris: All right. That's the episode.

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Kayla: No, it's not. That's just the banter.

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Chris: Oh, that's the banter.

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Kayla: I'm doing pretty good. Cause I didn't have to do anything for this episode. And it felt nice to take a break after doing two episodes, three episodes in a row, technically, two topics.

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Chris: And actually, those. Both those episodes. Both those topics were very cool.

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Kayla: And lengthy.

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Chris: And lengthy. And. I don't know. It's gonna be kind of hard to follow those.

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Kayla: Oh, yeah. Whatever your topic is. Whatever. This episode's garbage. Sorry.

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Chris: Thanks. Wow, you're. It's a lot of. That's good support.

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Kayla: It just can't hold itself up to the same standard that I have.

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Chris: So why the bar that I have set? Why bother? You should have just ended the episode. End of episode.

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Kayla: Cause you have to. This one. And then.

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Chris: Oh, I see. Good. This is gonna really retain listeners. Hey, everyone.

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Kayla: This is.

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Chris: Just get through this shit, and then you can listen to actual good stuff. Why wouldn't they just skip it and listen to the next one?

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Kayla: They probably won't. Cause they know that I'm an asshole. And this is gonna be a very good episode, and I'm very excited to hear it.

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Chris: Well, TBD. We'll see. Any other fun banter?

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Kayla: It's too late for that.

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Chris: It's too late for fun.

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Kayla: It's 2020. There's one is over.

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Chris: We haven't had fun in probably years.

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Kayla: It's August 2020. What does that even mean?

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Chris: I know. We're sitting here and it's actually. Part of the problem is that it's so hot in here because we have our soundproofing, which is also insulative.

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Kayla: Oh, God, it's hot.

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Chris: This kind of sucks.

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Kayla: And we're in a room that the sun faces all damn day.

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Chris: Yeah, this is poorly planned.

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Kayla: Yeah. My whole lives were poorly planned.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Anyway, I'm. You've been kind of fetching about.

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Chris: Really? I have never heard you use that word.

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Kayla: Because you're not complaining. You're not, like, you haven't been complaining about it. You haven't been, like, whining about it. You've been, like, kind of talking about it. Like, oh, boy.

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Chris: Like, I've been shrugging and, like, having, like, a. Like, anime sweat come down my face.

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Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what the correct word for that is, but that's what came to mind.

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Chris: It's probably koveching, I think. I don't know.

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Kayla: I'm interested to hear what this topic is that has had you.

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Chris: If there's any listeners out there that speak Yiddish, please let us know. So I'm actually gonna start the way that I like to. How do I like to start, Kayla? I don't know with what I just did.

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Kayla: See, I fucking hate you so much.

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Chris: Yeah, I like to start with.

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Kayla: You like to start with a goddamn question.

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Chris: Yeah, well, you stole that from me, too.

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Kayla: Yeah. I'm never doing it again.

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Chris: I bet you will.

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Kayla: Yeah, I probably will.

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Chris: Do you, Kayla, believe in true love?

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Kayla: Let's define our terms. What does that mean?

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Chris: Oh, good. See, I knew you would do that.

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Kayla: Well, perfect. Perfect.

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Chris: Well, I mean, I'm asking you if you believe in something, so I agree with defining terms. Define them for me. Yeah. Like, no, you definitely. Is there a thing that. All right. Is there a thing that you believe in that you would qualify as true love? And if so, what does that mean?

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Kayla: I don't think. I believe. I don't really know what that means. Like, when you talk about, like, true love, like, princess Bride. Very big plot point is true love.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: And they use that because it's a very, like, fairy tale trope concept. I think it's.

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Chris: What do they do in the princess bride with that? Just for. I mean, I know most.

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Kayla: I can't spoil the film.

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Chris: It's, like, 30 years old.

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Kayla: I still don't like spoiling. Okay, spoiler alert for Princess Bride. Also, if you haven't seen Princess Bride, you definitely should watch Princess Bride. I love that film.

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Chris: When are we just gonna, like, drop the pretense and just become a pop culture podcast?

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Kayla: I mean, here's the thing. True love is not really talked about in Jurassic park, so I don't have an opinion on it.

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Chris: I don't know.

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Kayla: That's a more familial love situation.

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Chris: Oh, right. The romantic love between that is Doctor Sadler and the Tyrannosaurus.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: I did not. The romantic love aspect in that film is so we. That. I did not realize that.

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Chris: So we.

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Kayla: So small that doctor Alan Grant and doctor Ellie Sattler were 100% canon confirmed in a relationship.

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Chris: Wait, really?

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Kayla: Yes, because if you go watch the movie, it's like, it's no shit. Hardly a part of it. It's hardly a part of it. It's more about him becoming a father figure to these children. Whatever.

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Chris: Wait, so you can use Jurassic park to talk about true love then?

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Kayla: I can't use Jurassic park to talk about anything.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: Cause it's the best movie of all time anyway. In Princess Bride, sadly lacking in dinosaurs, unfortunately. What's his face? Wesley is tortured to death and he dies. And then they, his friends take him to Billy Crystal, who's like a doctor guy, witch doctor guy, and they're like, bring him back to life. And the guy's like. And they do this thing where they figure out why he has unfinished business, why he needs to come back to.

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Chris: Life after Billy Crystal kvetches.

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Kayla: Yeah. And it's for true love. So it's him and Princess Buttercup. They have true love.

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Chris: That is the lamest thing I've ever heard.

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Kayla: No, it's fantastic because it's like, it's. It's utilizing these fairy tale tropes to.

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Chris: Make like, that's what happens at the end of the Matrix. By the way.

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Kayla: I don't want to hear about that. Really?

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Chris: Yeah. The end of the first Matrix. Remember? Like, neo's, like, dead. And then.

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Kayla: No, don't remember anything about that movie.

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Chris: And then Trinity's like, but I love you, Neo. And then he's like, oh, just kidding. I'm not dead anymore. And then he magics the rest of the movie through.

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Kayla: Don't remember that. I didn't even know that they were in love.

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Chris: Oh, my God. Yeah, that's like a huge part of it.

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Kayla: I don't care anyway. True love, I don't believe. I think that it is the term true love as we generally understand it as a fairy tale trope is a shorthand, is a trope. It's not something that exists in real life. I don't think that you are going to be a young girl, princess, and the mysterious farm boy. Your eyes meet across the thing, and you guys are destined to be together forever. Even though you never have a conversation about what you actually like about each other. No, I don't believe in that do I believe in.

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Chris: Speak for yourself as a. I am speaking for myself.

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Kayla: You ask, princess.

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Chris: Growing up I have a different.

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Kayla: But in terms of like I think to talk about it in the real world, I would need to define my terms a lot more. What are you talking about? Romantic?

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Chris: Well, let's.

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Kayla: Yeah, about familial love. Are you talking.

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Chris: That's interesting actually. Don't have. I don't really talk about the different types of love in this episode. So I'm glad you brought that up. I think we can probably inject some discussion about that in a couple of places here because I actually think that's pretty relevant.

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Kayla: Like, are you asking about soul mates?

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Chris: Actually that's my very next question is what if I narrow it down to soulmates? Do you think soul mates exist? You and I are soul mates.

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Kayla: I don't think that there's answer carefully person for like I don't think every person has one person that they're so.

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Chris: I'm not your soulmate is what you're saying.

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Kayla: I think that you are my soulmate, but I don't think. I don't think the like tropey definition of soulmate where it's like it's the one person that is meant to be with. No, that's. I don't believe in that.

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Chris: Why not?

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Kayla: Because a, logically it doesn't make any fucking sense and b, that's depressing as fuck. If there is one person that you are meant to be with on this entire planet, you will never find them. Because there are 7 billion people. You will never find them.

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Chris: What if somebody helps you find them?

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Kayla: Oh, no, we'll get to that. I don't want to talk about whatever you're gonna talk about anyway. I think you and I are soul mates, but because we have purposefully and consciously leveraged our compatibility into that.

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Chris: How romantic.

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Kayla: We make the choice to love each other every day and we have, again, speak for yourself. Together into soul mates.

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Chris: But if you die tomorrow, I'm your soulmate.

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Kayla: Get married to somebody else. Sorry.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: And find another soulmate.

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Chris: Yeah, please do. My soulmate is actually Perry, our cat. Well, yeah, that's just to be clear about that. I just don't want to disappoint you.

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Kayla: I love that you're talking about this while I'm literally watching an episode of a reality television show where the people are about to get married and they have a conversation with an astrologer and she's like, you guys are soul mates. And the guy's like, yeah, I think we are soul mates. And the girl goes, I don't actually think that we're soul mates. I think my soulmate was my first love, but I still like you and I are meant to be together, but my soulmate was this other guy.

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Chris: Well, hang on to that, because as I was doing the research for this topic, I overheard, as I do when you watch your trashy reality tv. And it definitely perked my ears up. Cause I was like, wait, that's what I'm talking about. Anyway, so maybe we're soul mates based on your definition. Okay, what about twin flames?

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Kayla: No, I don't want to talk about. This is your thing. Twin flames.

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Chris: Are we twin flames?

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Kayla: No, we're not twin flames.

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Chris: Why are we not twin flames?

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Kayla: Because we don't.

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Chris: Have you heard of the. It sounds like you've heard of twins.

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Kayla: Yes, I know twin flames.

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Chris: How do you know of twin flames? Because maybe our listeners don't.

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Kayla: You want me to tell you what twin flames are or how I know about them?

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Chris: Well, a little bit of both, but you don't have to get into too much detail because I have a whole lot of detail.

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Kayla: Twin flames is a concept that similar to that of the soulmate, but a twin flame is different in that it may or may not be the person that you're supposed to be with. Your twin flame and your soulmate can be the same person, but they're not always. The twin flame is somebody that you find yourself inextricably. Like. You're inextricably drawn to each other and, like, tied together in really passionate and fiery ways that may or may not be. They can be really intense and good, and then it can be really, like, destructive and bad.

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Chris: And that's your understanding of twin flames?

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Kayla: That is my understanding of twin flames. According to the alien.

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Chris: Where did you run across it?

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Kayla: Talk to on Facebook? I think. I think I've seen it talked about in the teal swan group. I've seen it talked about in the weird, like, alien people groups in. On Facebook that I'm a part of. Like, it's. It's definitely. I've seen it come up. Come up on, like, which Twitter and stuff like that.

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Chris: That. That checks out.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: So was my definition, like, basically correct?

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Chris: It's sort of. I mean.

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Kayla: Okay, so hold on.

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Chris: Let's pause on the word correct.

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Kayla: The other thing about twin flames is that it feels like it's one of those concepts, those, like, new age concepts that's, like, really hard to actually define.

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Chris: Yeah. So that's actually kind of the next place I was going. Is that. Was your definition incorrect? No, but it's also like, because it's this new age concept. There's like a lot of different speakers that have different opinions on what it is. And we'll get to that here, actually. Well, right now. So please allow me to elaborate and give you some more in depth details of what I have learned, that a twin flame is a twin flame. Now, this is sort of like the core of the concept, simply put, is someone who shares your soul. So to a spiritually believing person, someone who's into all the new age stuff, your twin flame and you are actually two separate bodies that share a single soul. So I don't like that. That's the first way in which they differ from soul mates.

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Chris: A soulmate is generally described as, at least in the twin flame community anyway. A soulmate is described as someone whose soul complements yours, like you complement each other on your journeys. Whereas a twin flame at a spiritual level. At a soul level is.

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Kayla: You don't like that.

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Chris: And that's sort of the core of the concept, at least as I was able to understand it.

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Kayla: Wait, so is the twin flame community, is that your topic?

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Chris: We'll get to that. So let me quote here from a website called lawofattraction.com.

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Kayla: I'Ve been there.

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Chris: We'll talk a little bit about the law of attraction again here in a minute. For those who don't know, I think most people know what the law of attraction is by now. But anyway, I'm going to quote from their site, talking about twin flames, sometimes discussed in terms of a mirror soul or soul connection, a twin flame is the other half of your soul. It is theorized that a soul can split into two after ascending to a high frequency. Thereafter, the soul lands in two different bodies. Okay, so if you ascend to a high frequency as per, you know, as you do.

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Kayla: Okay, but here's the thing. Here's my question. Since we're all ascending to a higher frequency right now as we move from a carbon based structure to a crystalline.

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Chris: Okay, wait a minute. Don't get. I don't know what you're reading on Facebook right now, but we're not talking about that.

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Kayla: Or maybe we are all going to become twin flames.

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Chris: No, I think it's more like a, like souls exist. They ascend to higher frequencies. Sometimes they can be reincarnated. I think reincarnation is a popular sort of twin flame concept because when the soul. Right, when the soul reincarnates, it can either reincarnate into one body, or it can reincarnate into two bodies, in which case you have a twin flame situation.

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Kayla: I want to go on the record right now and say that I think that this is. It is like the bedrock for a toxic.

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Chris: Okay, it's like, zip it, zip it right now. Right now. Hardcore. We'll get to that. Let me finish this quote from lawofattraction.com dot. If you compare a twin flame versus a soulmate, it's important to note I that a soulmate is someone who is made from the same kind of energy as you, but who has never existed in fusion with you. So although soulmate connections are highly significant, an encounter with a twin flame is on another level entirely. Usually, this will lead to romance. However, it can also manifest in the form of an intense friendship. If you have a twin flame, you are fated to meet this person at some point in your life journey. The two of you will be pulled together like magnets. You will know when you've connected with this person because you'll immediately experience a sense of recognition.

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Chris: Many people describe an uncanny sense of having known their twin flame all their lives. When you encounter the person who carries the other half of your energy, it can create a profound and life altering sense of wholeness. Your relationship will naturally be extremely intense. Because twin flames are mirrors of one another, this person will not only provide a sense of wholeness, they will also elevate your self knowledge, including knowledge of your flaws. Consequently, there's a potential for conflict as well as happiness. Rest assured that it is possible to have a happy, healthy relationship with your twin flame. However, this is only possible if you can learn to love yourself as your twin flame is part of you. This love must be honest and unconditional. Otherwise, a part of you will always be driven to reject your twin flame.

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Kayla: Did abusers create this concept? Because that's literally just.

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Chris: We will super get to that. Okay? You'll see some version of this description of twin flames a lot, and, like, a bunch of different new age woo websites online that I've been to, like, you know, goop.com, ew, allure, Cosmopolitan magazine, not Teen Vogue. So I was actually a little bit surprised at how widespread this very woo concept was amongst publications that don't really traffic in, that it's not more.

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Kayla: Woo woo than soulmates or. Or astrology.

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Chris: It's more woo than soulmates. It is heavily more woo than.

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Kayla: On the surface, like in these articles. Is it?

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Chris: Well, so that's. Yeah, I'm kind of that's kind of what I'm getting.

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Kayla: Sorry, I keep interrupting.

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Chris: No, no, that's your. The whole point is that you're supposed to react to me. This is. You are my twin flame, so you're supposed to challenge me or some shit.

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Kayla: Wait, do you think we're twin flames?

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Chris: I mean, we must be, right?

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Kayla: I don't know. You did all the research. Are we,

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Chris: Anyway, so. Yeah, like, it's. The thing is, the concept is very, actually very woo. It's very new age. And obviously, woo bullshit is totally like, goops bread and butter. Should we explain Goop? Goop is. I think most people know goop, but.

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Kayla: It'S Gwyneth Paltrow's fucking website.

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Chris: And it just has all of the. I mean, there's a whole episode on it in the second season of the dream, but, like, this is really, like, we could spend a whole episode or a whole topic on Goop, honestly, we probably should. They peddle all kinds of snake oil. Snake oil.

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Kayla: It's new age snake oil for fancy rich ladies who want to feel like they can have it all by eating garbanzo bean soup, which is literally nothing.

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Chris: And putting a jade egg in their yoni. Anyway, that's goop. So.

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Kayla: Goop.

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Chris: Goop. It makes sense. Goop obviously has an article on twin flames, but, like, allure and cosmo. Like, I was a little. I mean, I know they're not exactly like the Economist or the Washington Post, but, like, I was still a little bit surprised. But I think it's kind of what you were saying. Like, I think that at this point, the soulmate concept has been so colloquialized that, you know, you just kind of use soulmates to say, like, oh, it's somebody like, you know, like you were saying at the top of the show, right. It's. We've become compatible. We have, you know, we love each other for XYZ reasons. We don't necessarily, if were to use that word, mean that there's some, like, spiritual new age connection there.

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Kayla: There's not like a souls.

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Chris: Yeah. Whereas with twin flames, that. That's a pretty inescapable thing. It's very. It's very new age. Very spiritual. Woo.

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Kayla: But that's, like, really in right now.

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Chris: Oh, yeah, I know.

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Kayla: Just the whole, like, all of this, like, there's a reason why this is in right now and crystals are in right now and Goop is in right now and, like, yeah.

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Chris: So there's enough depth here. And the concept is popular enough amongst new agers as you literally just mentioned that we really could spend like an entire episode just talking about the different belief systems of what a twin flame is. But instead of doing that, let me just sort of sum up the main points of what it's said to because this set of beliefs has some downstream consequences that we'll be talking about on this and the next episode.

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Kayla: The next episode.

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Chris: Whoa. Yeah, it's gonna be a two parter because this topic was huge.

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Kayla: That's how it always be. Enormous friends that are listening. Thank you for. Thank you for being down with the two parter episodes because there's gonna be more and more of them.

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Chris: Thanks for putting up with us, by the way. I think we are probably twin flames with all of our listeners. Wait, can there be more than one, more than two twin flames? Like, presumably a soul could shatter a million different pieces.

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Kayla: What was. So are you telling me right now that Harry Potter and Voldemort were twin flames? Were they twin flames?

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Chris: Oh, yeah. Actually there's like a ton of, like, speculation in the twin flame community about. Sorry, not just speculation, like drama about, like, who were twin flames in that, like, Harry Potter universe, like canon versus non canon versus, like, who got together and who didn't.

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Kayla: Okay, well, the only canon is Harry Potter and Voldemort.

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Chris: Yeah, but there's a bunch of, like. Oh, no. Like, Harry and Hermione were really the twin flames, even though Hermione got together with Ron and this and that. And then people argue. Yes, spoilers. You know, I don't care about spoiling that garbage anyway, all right, so these are sort of what I felt after reading a bunch of shit. The main points that a twin flame is. Okay, so the first one, as we've already talked about, twin flames are a single soul separated into two different bodies. Number two, members of this community tend to refer their discovery and or pursuit of a twin flame to be a journey and specifically a healing journey. Remember when the law of attraction article talked about like, oh, you have to like, heal yourself or else your twin flame will reject you?

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Chris: Yeah, there's like a huge theme, a vein of that running through this whole thing. Number three, this journey is difficult, but. Oh, that was my number three. I got ahead of myself. Difficult but also healing, because meeting your alleged twin flame allegedly brings up past traumas and mistakes and whatnot. Reuniting with. Number four, reuniting with your twin flame is done via some pretty hardcore law of attraction stuff, which part of why I quoted from Law of attraction.com earlier and number five, twin flames have some interesting rules and regulations. Like what?

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Kayla: From who? Who has rules?

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Chris: There's no. I'm saying rules and regulations a little bit flippantly. It's just like there's. There's a. There's frameworks that come up again and again. Okay, so one is that one twin tends to always be a, quote, runner, and one is always a pursuer.

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Kayla: I don't.

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Chris: Just chill. Just chill.

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Kayla: I don't. This is not good.

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Chris: When one twin always has masculine energy and one is always feminine energy. And we will revisit both of those things later in either today's or the next episode.

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Kayla: I hate this.

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Chris: So not all twin flame believers believe all of the things I just said, but that's the basic package of beliefs. The way I see it, from my research for this concept, and it seems that most believers believe most of those things. Definitely more details that I'm leaving out, but it covers the basics, as you can probably tell, despite it being a sort of, like, love connection type thing, like a soulmate, which is why I think it makes into, like I just mentioned, why it makes it into publications like allure and cosmo is actually quite different from soulmates. And again, as we just mentioned, soul mates is sort of, like, entered mainstream vernacular. So it's, you know, doesn't necessarily carry, depending on who's using the word, doesn't necessarily carry spiritualism, new age connotations, but twin flames very much does.

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Chris: So let's quickly here dig into one of those new age aspects that we've been mentioning several times. The law of attraction. Kayla, putting you on the spot again, as I do, can you explain to our listeners what is the law of attraction?

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Kayla: What the weirdos say it is or what it actually is?

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Chris: Well, what the actually is?

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Kayla: It's just. It's just a brain trick.

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Chris: Oh, okay. I see what you're saying. What do the weirdos say?

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Kayla: The law of attraction is?

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Chris: What is the concept as it is shared by folks who believe in it? And in the book, the secret, if.

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Kayla: You want something, you must manifest it for yourself, and so you must attract it to you via thinking about it, making vision boards about it. Like, if you want a million dollar house, then you. The way to get the million dollar house is by making a vision board.

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Chris: Oh, sorry.

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Kayla: Having a vision board of a million dollar house, thinking about it, picturing yourself in it, attracting that to you, and if you put that energy out into the universe, it will come back to you. That's like the tenet of the secret.

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Chris: So it's just a brain trick. Okay, so I was gonna ask you. So that's. Yeah, because if we actually talked about this before a little bit when were interviewing Doctor Gorski, and if you recall, he had that awesome quote that said, all the best woo has a grain of truth at the center, right? And I think that's the grain of truth with the law of attraction is that, you know, if you are making vision boards about million dollar houses, then you're more likely to take the actual physical, tangible steps required to, whatever, become a millionaire to afford a million dollar house.

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Kayla: Which is like. That's why I don't hate the idea of the law of attraction. If like, if you need to hack your own brain in order to like support your goals, like, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

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Chris: This is why no one kind of.

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Kayla: Go like magic of the universe makes it happen. No, it's the magic of you.

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Chris: Okay, so this is how I know that we're twin flames. Because that's basically my next part of my script here.

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Kayla: Hell yeah, we're twin flames. Suck it, soulmates.

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Chris: Is that. Don't listen to her, parry the cat. So yeah, what's the problem here? What's wrong with it? It's great to have this behavioral aid essentially, right? It's great to have this thing that helps you take responsibility for your actions and your consequences. Even if it's based in this like made make believe, supernatural woo stuff. Isn't it good to have that? Sure. And in fact, for people who may be going through a rough patch or people that may be feeling like their life is out of control, something like the law of attraction that can help give them an internal sense of control back can be extremely compelling. Great. But here's the dark side of the law of attraction. First, it can tend to keep victims trapped in a loop of self blaming.

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Chris: And as we just mentioned, people going through rough times can find solace in the law of attraction. And people going through rough times can tend to be victims. So whether by mistake or by design, following the law of attraction too intensely can leave victims worse off by feeling like they are at fault for troubles that have befell them. In this regard, it's exactly like the MLMs, encouraging their members to get your mind in the right mindset. And if you don't succeed, it's your own fault.

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Kayla: Right?

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Chris: And we've talked about that a bunch in the program before. And there's of course a lot of overlap between the law of attraction, spirituality, prosperity, gospel and mlms.

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Kayla: Well, that's the whole thing. Is that like, sorry, did I interrupt?

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Chris: No, no, please, please.

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Kayla: It's like when talking about the law of attraction on the surface level, I feel like it's like you attract what you want, and so then it's like, okay, well, what are you saying about, like, if you logically flip it, you're like, okay, so what are you saying about the situations I'm in that are shitty?

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Chris: Right. And some of those situations, for some people are not just shitty. Like, I didn't get the job interview I interviewed for.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Some of those situations are like, abuse and neglect and criminal types. Like, so that's where it becomes dangerous, right? Is that harmful? When you mean. Yeah, well, that's what I mean by, like, psychologically dangerous. Second point is, well, actually, this is probably more of, like, point number one, a nothing. Second point. But the law of attraction completely ignores the fact that there are trends, forces, and actions in this reality that are, in fact, outside of your control ultimately.

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Kayla: Hash Covid-19.

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Chris: It'S just an imbalanced concept. So for me personally, I really like, and I really tend to think of the serenity prayer as one of the simplest guides through what can sometimes be a difficult life. And I know I'm not a mental health professional, I'm really not trying to be a cult leader here or anything, but I'm just saying, for me, I like it. I have had therapists that have recommended it to me, therapists that I like that recommend it to me as a good mantra rubric for those of you that don't know or don't remember. I think everybody knows serenity prayer, but whatever, it's the one that goes, grant me the courage to change the things that I can, the serenity to accept the things that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.

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Kayla: That's the clincher there at the end.

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Chris: Well, I think all three are really the clincher.

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Kayla: They are. I was just making a joke.

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Chris: Wisdom is in short supply, though. Yeah. But the thing about the law of attraction is that it kind of basically says that everything is in your control because everything.

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Kayla: Oh, are you God?

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Chris: Is in you.

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Kayla: Are you God?

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Chris: Because you are God.

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Kayla: You're God.

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Chris: Yeah, because that's the big. That's one of the main pillars of everything, spirituality, and sometimes. Are you gonna try to get that in every. Yes, every episode.

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Kayla: Soul phone, Jurassic park and fire fest.

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Chris: We haven't mentioned Fyre Fest in a while.

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Kayla: Twin flames. Oh, my God. Billy McFarlane.

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Chris: Jacques rolled.

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Kayla: Twin flames confirmed.

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Chris: Holy shit. They probably are. But of course, sometimes it's true that there are things that are in your control that you can change, right? And in fact, the serenity of prayer acknowledges that. It acknowledges that you should also have the wisdom to know when there are things that aren't, because sometimes there aren't. And if you follow this law of attraction all the way to its logical conclusion, if you have this too intense of a connection to it leaves you wanting for the wisdom part and the serenity part of that equation. So end tangent on the law of attraction. We'll come back to it.

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Chris: But bringing it back to twin flames, the important thing to note with regard to them is that in order to achieve union with your twin flame, which is like this life quest that believers say is extremely important, you make use of the law of attraction. And again, in some cases, I've researched a pretty intense version of it. In a weird way, this actually makes some, like, logical sense, because after all, your twin flame soul is your soul. So you should be able to connect with your own soul simply by working on your own mindset, right? So as you can see from just that one law of attraction example, twin flames, compared to the concept of soulmate, it's fundamentally new age spiritual type concept, which is interesting. And also, I hate it.

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Chris: And yeah, I know you just said you hated it a few minutes ago.

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Kayla: We can all hate it. There's plenty of hate to go around. Plus, we're twin flames. So if I say I hate it means you hate it.

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Chris: But this is where I want to say, like, you know, I say I hate it mostly as a sarcastic quip. And, you know, we're gonna talk more about why I'm not a fan. You, of course, have probably internalized some things that you don't like about it based on what you've commented so far. But as a quick aside here, we may have some members or ex members of the group we're talking about. Listen to this episode. I know we do that a lot where we, like, we'll go to a Reddit and be like, hey, guys, you know, listen, if you're in the community, listen to this.

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Chris: And I've seen in my research that a lot of folks who are even now ex members of said group and did not have a good experience with said group still really believe themselves in the concept of twin flames.

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Kayla: Gotcha.

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Chris: So I really want to apologize in advance here. If I come off as, like, insulting or condescending about those beliefs, that is absolutely not my intent. As we've done on the show before, we're going to try to walk a fine line here because I don't want to insult people. People are free to believe what they want to believe, but we have this fundamentally editorial nature of our podcast. So I'm also not going to hold back and talking about what my opinion is on the subject and why I hold that opinion. So I just want to say, like, sorry in advance, if you are a listener that is a twin flame believer. My intent is not to insult or belittle you, but I also can't rightly say that I love the concept.

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Kayla: Gotcha.

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Chris: And I also want to say here that, like, you know, we, you and I do like weird woo stuff, too, so.

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Kayla: Yeah, we've talked about that so many times on this show.

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Chris: Even just earlier in this show, you mentioned it twice. One with soulmates. I think there's a safe quote, unquote, way to interpret a soulmate is somebody who you have met, that you have a relationship with, that you have grown and nurtured and whatever. I feel like that's a safe way of using that concept. I feel like the safe way of using the law of attraction concept is within the framework that there are some things under your control. Not everything's under your control, but some things that are under your control, and that having a positive outlook will help put you in a mindset to succeed. Right. But. And then. And there's things that we've done, like crystals, like, we own crystals.

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Kayla: I love my crystals.

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Chris: I love my crystals, too. I don't, again, don't think that there's any magic to them.

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Kayla: No.

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Chris: But as, like, a totem to help me focus my thoughts around a particular concept. Like, I have, like, a strength crystal that sometimes I, you know, look at and, you know, touch or whatever, like before I do a workout or something. Right, right. It just puts me in the mindset. So I think there's a way to, like, practice safe. Whoo. It's not like guaranteed concept turn evil. It's just the thing is, it's a tool with very sharp edges.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: You just have to be careful.

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Kayla: Condom. Spiritual condom.

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Chris: Anyway, so I was just saying I hated it, so why do I hate it? It. Well, if this isn't your first show as a listener, you probably already know that this show, and me in particular, ascribe to rational materialist skepticism. It's kind of my thing. So obviously a new age belief system just isn't really like my cup of tea personally, anyway. But I do want to elaborate on some of what I think is problematic about this concept. Not just to support my position, but to provide context for the rest of the episode. Kayla, do you remember the last two episodes about Doctor Gary Schwartz and the soul phone when we talked? You know, Jesus Christ, I hope they, like, call us and, like, offer you a million dollars for that jingle, because it's well worth it.

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Kayla: We had a friend of the show who said that he would utilize the soul phone, jingo as a ringtone, so keep an eye out for that.

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Chris: Oh, man, we got to monetize that sh. Yet. Okay, so we talked a little bit about. On that episode about solipsism, right?

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Kayla: We did.

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Chris: We did.

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Kayla: I don't remember that at all.

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Chris: Yeah, we briefly talked about solipsism and, like, the.

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Kayla: Oh, that's how you being God works.

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Chris: Yeah, the you being God. Yeah. So just real quick aside for what solipsism is, in case you don't know what that word means, it's kind of a weird vocab word. It's just the. The notion that, like, you exist alone in your own mental universe, and nothing else is real other than your thoughts.

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Kayla: So the only consciousness you can confront firm is actually consciousness is known, which.

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Chris: Has a certain logical appeal, but is one of those sort of axiomatic things that, you know, we talked about this last episode. Either you're accepting that reality exists and we are things that come out of that, or that all reality is just your own consciousness, and you can affect everything with your own consciousness. Right. In the philosophical sense, those are the two starting points. Existence first or consciousness first.

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Kayla: Do you think there's a possible third or fourth starting point?

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Chris: If you can think of one, you're welcome to bring it up, but I don't think so. The reason it's only two is because it's a very. As conscious beings within a universe, there's an inside and an outside, and you have to decide which one creates the other.

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Kayla: My liver.

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Chris: Right. That's the third one. Your liver. So, yeah. Neither of those axiom is, quote, provable in a scientific sense. But the main reason, and perhaps the only reason, that I ultimately am a materialist, a reality first person, is that the consciousness first existence, one in which you truly are God of your reality, is fundamentally solipsistic. It's fundamentally isolating you being God in your reality and me being God and my reality, means that we do not have a shared reality. Other beings existences are fundamentally incompatible with the idea that you are God. If I divinely create an immovable object, can you divinely move it with an irresistible force? Something has to give. Right. In which case, we are not all our own gods. So why am I recapping that in this episode?

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Kayla: I don't know.

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Chris: Well, think about what I said about the. Thanks. That was a very. I don't know, Chris. What?

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Kayla: No, I really don't know.

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Chris: Well, think about what I said about twin flames for just a minute. Twin flames are new age spiritualism completely tied up in the law of attraction. New age spiritualism is fundamentally a you are your own God solipsistic paradigm. Twin flames is also about connecting with another person.

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Kayla: No, but it's you, so.

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Chris: Right, but there's another physical bodied person in the real world that you do.

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Kayla: Have to connect with their own consciousness. They just have your soul.

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Chris: Right. So immovable object meet irresistible force. Say for a moment, someone showed up at our doorstep tomorrow saying that I was their twin flame and were just a single soul bound by fate, and I needed to go be with them instead of you.

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Kayla: Okay, well, that would be kind of dope if that happened. That would be amazing to experience.

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Chris: I don't know. I think we would probably, like.

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Kayla: Actually, we'd call the fucking cops, but, like, the experience itself would be, like, crazy and great.

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Chris: Right? So my next question is, how would that make you feel? I think I was expecting more of, like, I would be upset, but I should have known.

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Kayla: I mean, call the cops. Like, yeah. I'd be like, what's this? Well, first of all, I wouldn't answer the door.

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Chris: What if somebody knocked on the door?

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Kayla: No, I never answered the door.

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Chris: Well, I would answer the door.

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Kayla: I hope that. I mean, I would say, I hope you're not home, but everybody's home now. Yeah. You would answer the door and you would probably, like. You would be so confused. You would be so confused over what was happening. And you'd try to be so nice, and I'd be sitting on the couch going, oh, my God. And then.

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Chris: And we'd definitely record it for the episode.

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Kayla: We probably. We'd probably just close the door. Like, it'd be very weird.

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Chris: So aside from the trying to, like.

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Kayla: But if I believed in twin flames and your twin flame showed up and said, come away with me, I'd be very destabilized and upset.

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Chris: Well, right. So that's what I was gonna say, is you can't fight it because it's a twin flame. It's much deeper than our silly material relationship. We're long lost halves of the same soul. Right. I'd pretty much have to join that person. Right?

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Kayla: I don't know if the two halves of the same soul should be in a romantic relationship that feels. I mean, should you date your clone?

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Chris: I would definitely date my clone.

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Kayla: You shouldn't date your clone.

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Chris: Why not?

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Kayla: I don't think you should. I don't think the person should.

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Chris: We should title this episode don't date your clone. But regardless of what we think, the idea behind a twin flame is that, like you, it is beyond worth it. Worth it. Beyond anything that you can imagine. To join with it, to have union with your twin flame.

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Kayla: That's so interesting, because I definitely read stuff where it was, like, the relationship may be, like, too volatile to sustain.

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Chris: Well, so what I read on that is that it's. Yes, it can be volatile because you are. By having that union, you have to go through all this healing process and bring up past traumas and whatnot and overcome them. But then at the end of that, it's like this nirvana of a relationship.

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Kayla: I don't believe in that. I don't think that's real.

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Chris: I know, actually. So it's funny, here on my script, I said, like, oh, no, I'd pretty much have to join that person, or. But most likely, in my case, I'd politely ask the crazy person to please never knock on my door again. Yeah, which is exactly what you said.

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Kayla: But again, then we're twin flames.

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Chris: But look where we're back to here. We're back to immovable object versus irresistible force. This person has this belief that is just so fundamentally incompatible. Like, me just saying, go away. That's not. That's not nearly enough. That's you being a runner, right? Me setting a boundary is, like, not nearly enough for them to not want to have. And in fact, it's better for me, too, in their mind, right, if we have that union. So, yeah, people are just people, and they have relationships. And sometimes, as we talked about at the top of the show, we use the word soulmate as a shorthand for being compatible. But if you're a twin flame, we're not just talking about relationship. We're talking about a complete spiritual reality. To me, that hypothetical door knocking person was just someone with a strange obsession.

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Chris: But to them and their belief system, I've shattered their reality. Either I was never actually their twin flame, so, oopsie. Or I am indeed their twin flame. And thanks to the law of attraction, there's something broken within them that they need to go fix and heal before they achieve their union with me. I've seen both the former and the latter rationalization tragically in my research. And now take everything I just explained about the incompatible nature of the I am God of my reality. Sprinkle on some of the other aspects I mentioned about runner and chaser, as you just mentioned, about masculine and feminine divine energy. And you can see where this thing that sounds like a nice, sort of, like, fluff piece for cosmos suddenly can go to dark places.

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Kayla: No, this is. This is just. Here is a recipe for abuse. If an abuser gets their hands on this formula, how can you, as the victim of the abuse, logic your way out of it? You can't.

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Chris: We'll get to that.

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Kayla: Also, okay, I do want to point out how come in your hypothetical scenario, you were the one that got to have a twin flame and I'm not me. Why couldn't the twin flame becoming the door for me?

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Chris: You don't have to.

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Kayla: Do I not get a twin flame?

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Chris: You're not fundamentally broken, Kayla. I am.

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Kayla: Wait, so if you are a twin flame, you're fundamentally broken?

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Chris: Actually, I'm not sure that's just in my head. I mean, your soul is broken in half. I don't know if that means you're fundamentally broken, but, I mean, what's the difference, right? Because the union is so important. I don't know.

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Kayla: So you're saying that you are.

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Chris: You know, what? If my twin flame comes to our door and I leave with them immediately, which is what I totally should do, then, you know, you're free to go find your twin flame.

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Kayla: I'm just saying, why couldn't if we're not twin flames?

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Chris: Well, you can go get one after that.

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Kayla: Well, I bet it'll be about me.

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Chris: So I can see that you are definitely a very solipsistic person. Anyway, we're pretty far in, but I'm going to go ahead and finally cite sources, which I know I've been doing that at the end of the episode, but I'm doing it at the beginning this time. Or beginning ish? Towards the beginning?

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Kayla: No, this is. We're an hour in.

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Chris: Okay. The middle. I don't know. There's actually a shocking amount of material on the subject, as we mentioned. And part of the reason, I think, is what you said is it's just a popular concept right now. Part of the reason is that the group we're gonna talk about is sort of, like, in the middle of an ongoing online drama. Which is it?

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Kayla: The Harry Potter drama?

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Chris: Get to that. No, that is just a sub drama.

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Kayla: Oh, my God, I'm so excited. I love Internet drama. Internet drama is my favorite thing in the world.

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Chris: Anyway, in no particular order, Reddit, vice, of course, YouTube videos galore from the group in question, which is why I was complaining about my YouTube recommendation engine last night. I was like, God damn it. The research for this episode is totally screwed over. My recommendation engine.

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Kayla: Yup.

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Chris: The website of the group in question, thelawofattraction.com. As we mentioned, allure mag, Cosmo mag, as we mentioned, a website called lonerwolf.com, comma, a website called goalcast.com, several Wikipedia articles, a medium article, a Huffpo article. Probably some shit I forgot. And last but definitely not least, I want to thank the listener that brought this topic to my attention.

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Kayla: Oh, shit.

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Chris: And gave me their time in an extensive interview.

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Kayla: Oh, my God.

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Chris: Which we won't be airing.

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Kayla: Why not?

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Chris: Not only did they share their time with me on two separate phone calls, they also shared a whole shit done. Of documentation about their time with the group.

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Kayla: Oh, my God.

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Chris: And I just want to say here that I'm being intentionally vague about a lot of the attributes about this person, such as their timeline in the group, whether I'm citing facts about them or facts about some other piece of research later on in the show, even their gender, not because they're non binary or anything, but to try and, protect their identity.

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Kayla: What is happening? What is this topic?

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Chris: That's also why we're not airing the interview.

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Kayla: I'm scared.

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Chris: Yeah. Now.

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Kayla: What is the thing?

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Chris: I genuinely don't think that there's anything to worry about in terms of reprisal.

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Kayla: Too late.

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Chris: But this group did threaten vice with a lawsuit after their first article was published, and according to former members, have threatened them with, quote, releasing compromising information if they didn't retract their statements device.

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Kayla: Oh, God.

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Chris: And the charismatic leader has some relatively angry rants that he has posted online lately.

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Kayla: Is this Scientology?

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Chris: We'll get to all that.

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Kayla: Oh, God.

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Chris: And before you ask, I don't think that culture just weird is in any real danger of lawsuit either. First, we have no assets, so there's nothing really to sue. We just have, like, a couple hundred bucks in a bank account so we can pay our Libsyn fees. Also, we're not presenting any information that isn't either publicly available elsewhere, such as Vice, Reddit, or YouTube, or information that we haven't reliably received from listeners of our show. We may editorialize here on some of the spiritual topics more than vice would, but we are also pretty forceful about our disclaimers that we are not cult academics. Just curious amateur podcasts. Also, everything we do on this podcast is entirely in good faith, which I realize you just have to sort of take our word at that.

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Chris: But the amount of documentation we have across all of our shows, and with this episode in particular, would be ample proof of our good faith to any interested party. Plus, even if we did get sued, that would be totally rad. As you know, I've been super excited to receive a lawsuit pretty much since we started the show.

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Kayla: Yep.

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Chris: And we probably like ten x our listeners. Just kidding. Really, though, if I'm being completely honest here, this entire paragraph is more about getting our listeners blood pumping than it was about any real threat. I don't think there's any real threat. But also say, I didn't have this in my script here, but I. I did actually spend some time researching journalistic ethics and that sort of thing. And we're pretty much crossing all of our t's and dotting our I's. It's mostly about like, are you reliably reporting the facts as you have researched them? And is it in good faith?

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Kayla: What is good faith?

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Chris: We're doing both of those things. Good faith is like.

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Kayla: That means you're not trying to go slander someone.

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Chris: Yeah, exactly. My intent is not to slander this group or its charismatic leaders.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: My intent is to talk about things I've read online and talk about things that people have presented to me, not because I have anything out for these people. In fact, I apologize again to listeners that may be former members, but at this point, I kind of pity the charismatic leaders. It's that I don't want to, like, they're just there. They don't seem like they're in a good place right now.

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Kayla: Gotcha.

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Chris: Anyway, oh, speaking of listeners, quick segue here. We've been getting, like, a ton of fan mail recently.

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Kayla: Oh, I know.

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Chris: It's so nice and it's so awesome. It's really awesome to hear from you guys. Shout out to all the folks that have sent us emails. We've gotten topic suggestions.

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Kayla: It's really amazing.

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Chris: We've gotten people that commiserated with us about Jurassic park and Star Trek. It's just, yeah, it's really cool. Oh, and also, I checked again. I checked our worldoftext.com culturejustweird and that group of tulpas that. Sorry, that system of tulpas put another little note saying that they're from France.

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Kayla: Oh, my God, I love it.

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Chris: So not only is it a system of tulpas, they're from France. Isn't that awesome?

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Kayla: That's incredible. French tulpas. I love it.

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Chris: Yeah. I just. It's so cool. We have international listeners. I don't know. All right. Now that I've stirred the pot extensively here by talking about lawsuits and reprisals and secret sources, and after having talked about bullshit philosophy stuff and true love and soulmates for an hour, you're probably wondering what the hell we're talking about today.

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Kayla: I am very much wondering this.

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Chris: Welcome to the Twin Flames universe.

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Kayla: What is that? Is that like the MCU?

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Chris: Oh, man. Oh, my God. Exactly. You got it.

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Kayla: What is it?

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Chris: Where to begin?

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Kayla: Is it a company? Is it a group of friends?

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Chris: So, you know, how is it a show? When you ask these questions about, like, an MLM, you're like. Even then you're not super sure. You're just like, is it a company or is it an interest group? What is it?

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Yeah. I don't know what this one either, really?

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Kayla: Are they selling stuff?

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Chris: Yes.

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Kayla: Okay. Is it an MLM?

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Chris: I asked that question specifically, and even though there is a sort of pyramid shaped structure at the very top, there's only, like, a couple layers. Only, like, three layers. So that's not. To me, that's definitely not MLM. And MLM has to be an indefinite number of layers of recruiting.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: So they're not an MLM, but they do have, like, a recruiting bent sort of in their top ranks. But actually, instead of just talking about what they are. And by the way, I might call twin flames universe. Tfu.

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Kayla: Yeah. Like MCU.

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Chris: Interchangeably here. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. But. Yeah. Since this is a podcast, it makes total sense to use visual aids. Right. But let's have a look at their website. This is twinflamesuniverse.com. In a world where you can swipe right and have a new person, how can you have certainty and romance? Look at all these happy couples. Look at this.

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Kayla: Is it all white people?

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Chris: In. In the photos? No, not 100%. They're summations. But most. It's mostly white people. But come on, Kayla. This is like new age woo stuff. This is like. This is white bread and butter.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: So to speak.

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Kayla: How can you not be lonely? I don't know. So when your partner can leave you in a moment's notice. Jesus.

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Chris: Where is your person? Where is your ultimate lover? So it's like a pretty. Pretty good production value on this website. Pretty snazzy, right?

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Kayla: What if I knew. Wait, you have to read that part. What if I knew there was a way for you to have it. Would you follow my instructions? I don't know who you are.

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Chris: Have it. The it is referring to is actually. I'm not sure. Oh, you're happily ever after, I think. Or maybe your ultimate lover. I'm not sure. In any case, there's, like, a lot of pictures of happy couples every single time. Love, Jeff and Shaliah.

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Kayla: I'm sorry. Can I look at them again?

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Chris: We'll be looking at more of them.

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Kayla: I don't like the cut of either of their jibs.

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Chris: Now, let's recall that they're litigious. So I just said jibs. We have nothing against anyone's physical looks.

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Kayla: I didn't say that. You said that.

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Chris: So anyway, I mean, it's. So you're asking me, like, what is it?

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Kayla: I'm talking about energy here.

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Chris: Oh, that's true. Right? A higher ascension energy. Harmonic.

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Kayla: I'm talking about the frequency vibrations.

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Chris: Right. That's true. So it looks basically like a dating service.

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Kayla: It does. Except at the top. I'm seeing the school.

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Chris: Yeah. So that's the thing. As you can see, if I mouse over the school.

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Kayla: Oh, no, no. This is bad.

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Chris: Twin flame Ascension school life purpose class ascension coach training program.

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Kayla: No, that part's the bad part.

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Chris: Yeah. So, listeners, I recommend you go check it out. Twin flameuniverse.com.

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Kayla: Did you make an account?

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Chris: I did not. I was tempted. I actually. I ended up watching enough of their YouTube videos that I didn't feel like I also needed to, like, make an account and become a customer. But they do have, like, some, like, free stuff to get you started. Like, they have, like, a starter kit and some videos and stuff for that. In any case, I wanted to show you their website. We don't need to go look into every little bit of it, but, yeah. So, like, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think their product is?

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Kayla: What do I think their product is? I think it's two people who go, we're gonna teach you how to live your best twin flame life. Oh. And also we're gonna teach you how to teach other people how to live their best twin flame lives.

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Chris: Yeah. So as we mentioned, first blush, it seems maybe it's like matchmaking, but I don't know.

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Kayla: Oh, it didn't seem like matchmaking to me. It seemed more like, we're gonna teach you how to find your. We're not gonna actually find it for you. We're gonna teach you how to find your thing.

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Chris: Right. Okay. Yeah, I see that. I see that. So anyway, the charismatic leaders here, which we mentioned, fancy themselves as spiritual teachers. And what they're selling is much more in line with, as you said, like, the sort of self help, quote unquote, teachings than it is with something like match.com or plentyoffish or tinder.

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Kayla: Gotcha.

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Chris: Very similar to, say, I don't know, like the Ramtha school of enlightenment or the teal Swan empire. Keep what I'm saying here in the back of your mind as we dive deeper.

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Kayla: Or that one guy that I worked for. Remember how I worked for one of these people?

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Chris: But he wasn't, was he? No, he was pretty. Like. He was pretty. Oh, yeah. Oh, well. But you were, like, actually employed by him, right? You weren't, like, joining his cult or anything? Okay. Okay. That makes it okay.

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Kayla: I was a freelance.

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Chris: Freelance cultist. All right. So I said I'd get to that. Regarding the charismatic leaders, and here we are. So if you recall on the website, the charismatic leaders of this organization are those two lovely individuals, Jeff and Shalia.

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Kayla: Jeff should have. Sorry. Okay. No, I was gonna say Jeff should have changed his name because Jeff and Shaliah don't match to me.

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Chris: I think they already changed both of their names. I think they're like. That isn't their birth names.

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Kayla: Well, I'm just saying that Shalia is, like, a beautiful, unique name.

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Chris: Yeah, like, new agey name. And Jeff is just.

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Kayla: Jeff is a common name.

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Chris: Jeff. I know. I know.

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Kayla: I'm just saying Jeff needs to get on Shalia's level, right?

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Chris: And be like, jeff Leah, if they're.

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Kayla: Really gonna be twin flames. Wait, are they twin flames?

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Chris: Of course they're twin flames, Kayla. I just wanna make sure they can't be twin flames and can't not be twin flames and build the business empire that they've built. Anyway, I don't. I really don't want to sound like too much of an asshole today, but I really gotta say that I personally do not find them charismatic in the slightest. Like, I know some people do. I find them anticharismatic. Really?

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Kayla: See, you had the same thing with Teal, though.

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Chris: Yeah, but even more so with them. I'm gonna show you some videos.

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Kayla: It's interesting to me how, like, the charisma of some of these cult leaders. It's the opposite for you.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Cause that's not the case for me, teal. I'm like, I will follow you to the ends of the earth, teal. Swan.

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Chris: Teal has a presence, though. I just didn't. Her delivery just is off. Putting. And I guess now that I'm saying that's, like, kind of these guys, too. Like, they do seem to have a presence in their videos. It's just their delivery is, like. It's like, it was hard for me to watch, not because I was gonna vomit or anything. I was just, like. It was hard for me to watch without, like, getting distracted and wanting to do something else.

451
00:55:53,730 --> 00:55:54,994
Kayla: They didn't engage you?

452
00:55:55,122 --> 00:55:55,658
Chris: Yeah.

453
00:55:55,754 --> 00:55:57,730
Kayla: Cause you're not ready to meet your twin flame.

454
00:55:57,850 --> 00:56:39,278
Chris: That's probably what I need to do, work on myself. But, yeah, I just. I don't know. Like, we call it charismatic leader. They've built so much of their spiritual healing business mostly on YouTube. And their YouTube videos, to me, just seem like they're so much of a need of an editor. And I do realize the fact that they are raw and unfiltered is probably, like, some of the appeal. And I know they definitely must have some appeal to some people because they seem to have plenty of followers. And I, again, really don't want to insult any members or ex members listening, nor do I want to pile unfairly on Jeff and Shalia, since, as I mentioned, they seem to be in a little bit of a rough patch right now. Their style is just not my cup of tea.

455
00:56:39,374 --> 00:56:42,014
Kayla: That doesn't mean they're not charismatic, though, just because they're not charismatic to you.

456
00:56:42,102 --> 00:56:49,950
Chris: I know, I know. I just. We call it charismatic leader. And I just want to say not charismatic to me, but maybe this is.

457
00:56:49,990 --> 00:56:59,438
Kayla: Basically the equivalent charisma leader of somebody going like, I don't like that mainstream band because everyone else likes them. That's what you're doing.

458
00:56:59,494 --> 00:57:02,966
Chris: But with cult leader, I know I'm a shithead. I'm nothing. I'm not denying that.

459
00:57:02,998 --> 00:57:03,990
Kayla: Just a contrarian.

460
00:57:04,110 --> 00:57:08,966
Chris: I just. When I was watching their videos, I just wanted to be, like, on my.

461
00:57:08,998 --> 00:57:11,798
Kayla: Phone and, hey, when do I get to see the videos? Because I want to prove you wrong.

462
00:57:11,854 --> 00:57:15,006
Chris: You're gonna see the videos right now, and you're gonna be like, oh, wait, never mind.

463
00:57:15,078 --> 00:57:18,010
Kayla: No, I'm gonna. I'm already. I'm into this. I'm in this cult now.

464
00:57:18,550 --> 00:57:27,926
Chris: All right. Our first video up is my favorite, because science. So this video is how to scientifically prove twin flames exist.

465
00:57:27,998 --> 00:57:28,668
Kayla: Okay.

466
00:57:28,774 --> 00:57:30,280
Chris: By Jeff and Shalia. It's just science.

467
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,368
Kayla: Kayla, are they scientists? What's their background?

468
00:57:32,504 --> 00:57:37,200
Chris: I am not actually sure. It's definitely not sci. I think he has, like, a business degree.

469
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:38,064
Kayla: Okay.

470
00:57:38,192 --> 00:58:27,920
Chris: I don't know what they were doing before twin flames. Universe okay. Certainly not science. Believe it or not, they don't actually cite quantum mechanics in this video. So shocking points for originality. So for our listeners, we're just gonna watch real quick here in the studio. Kayla's gonna react. So we'll be right back. And of course, we will send you. We will make sure that these links are available in our show notes and in our instagram post on the topic. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about that video. What do you think about their scientific methodology? Oh, actually, first of all, hold on. I want you to tell our listeners what you admitted to me that I was right about.

471
00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:28,820
Kayla: No.

472
00:58:28,860 --> 00:58:31,972
Chris: When were watching the video. Yep. Please tell. No, please tell our listeners.

473
00:58:32,036 --> 00:58:33,548
Kayla: That was for your ears only.

474
00:58:33,684 --> 00:58:38,760
Chris: Okay, well, then I don't think that we can go any further on until you admit.

475
00:58:39,900 --> 00:58:46,106
Kayla: Don't think that they're very charismatic personally.

476
00:58:46,228 --> 00:58:47,490
Chris: And what did you say?

477
00:58:48,030 --> 00:58:50,174
Kayla: I said that teal is more charismatic than I was.

478
00:58:50,222 --> 00:58:52,318
Chris: Correct is the main thing here.

479
00:58:52,494 --> 00:58:54,014
Kayla: You don't even think Teal's charismatic, so.

480
00:58:54,022 --> 00:58:57,926
Chris: I don't. But I did say. I did say that Teal was far more charismatic than them.

481
00:58:57,958 --> 00:58:59,790
Kayla: Well, let's go watch Teal's twin flame video.

482
00:58:59,870 --> 00:59:00,702
Chris: Let's not.

483
00:59:00,846 --> 00:59:02,890
Kayla: Actually, I.

484
00:59:04,110 --> 00:59:08,126
Chris: Let's. Let's caveat real quick here. Again, we are very much editorializing.

485
00:59:08,198 --> 00:59:08,686
Kayla: Yes.

486
00:59:08,798 --> 00:59:19,540
Chris: Like, this is just our impressions of this video and these folks. Not any sort of, like, factual thing here, but we're just saying that they are not very appealing to us personally.

487
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:38,486
Kayla: This video was explaining how one would go about scientifically proving that twin flames exist utilizing the motivated reasoning of, like, well, we know that it exists. So here's how you would prove it. And it's. If you surveyed a bunch of people, the twin flames would all be perfectly compatible.

488
00:59:38,648 --> 00:59:45,418
Chris: So it was basically saying, we can prove that it exists, because if they did exist, then it would be like this. And therefore, that means they exist.

489
00:59:45,474 --> 00:59:46,226
Kayla: Yeah.

490
00:59:46,418 --> 00:59:47,954
Chris: It was not actually.

491
00:59:48,042 --> 00:59:48,658
Kayla: No, there's no science.

492
00:59:48,714 --> 00:59:53,362
Chris: I didn't know. This is, like, really dumb to have to say this, but no, there's no science. Completely not scientific.

493
00:59:53,386 --> 01:00:21,552
Kayla: That's not what science is. It was interesting to me, and it does make a lot of sense now. And I feel like, again, some of the best wu does this as well. To me, it seemed as if they were. Because they mentioned God a few times, and they mentioned God, like, God created this person for you. And it seemed. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it definitely seemed like Judeo christian God or like, specifically christian God.

494
01:00:21,616 --> 01:00:30,968
Chris: We haven't talked about this yet, but this particular. I don't know if it's twin flames in general or if it's just their group, but it's very God oriented.

495
01:00:31,064 --> 01:00:36,600
Kayla: And it makes sense because it's like you think about Adam and Eve. They were made out of the same body.

496
01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:38,900
Chris: Mmm. That's true.

497
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:39,316
Kayla: Yeah.

498
01:00:39,348 --> 01:00:48,108
Chris: Eve was made out of Adam's rib, so, like, it when really, they should have made delicious ribs on the grill out of Adam. Yeah.

499
01:00:48,164 --> 01:00:49,548
Kayla: Why not cannibal ribs?

500
01:00:49,644 --> 01:00:51,188
Chris: I bet that's probably tasty.

501
01:00:51,324 --> 01:01:06,894
Kayla: But I think that often, I think that. That. I don't know if the best woo, but there's definitely a brand of woo that, like, really coincides with new age protestant christian religions.

502
01:01:07,022 --> 01:01:16,230
Chris: Yeah, there's a whole subsector of new age ness that you normally think of new age as being like, oh, it's opposing christians. It's outside of the Christian.

503
01:01:16,310 --> 01:01:19,278
Kayla: It's talking about energy and not God.

504
01:01:19,374 --> 01:01:29,656
Chris: But this is talking about God, aliens and whatever. But there's a whole subset, actually, that is very much tied up on that in the concept of the Judeo Christianity theology. And this is one of those things, at least.

505
01:01:29,688 --> 01:01:31,632
Kayla: Twin flame universe is really fascinating.

506
01:01:31,696 --> 01:01:32,664
Chris: It's super fascinating.

507
01:01:32,752 --> 01:01:44,592
Kayla: But again, it makes sense. Like, if you believe in God as the way that, you know, the Christian Bible defines God, that's really powerful evidence that something like twin flames could exist, right? Or does exist.

508
01:01:44,696 --> 01:01:48,300
Chris: And as edge lords, we believe that Christianity is also a cult.

509
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,632
Kayla: We haven't done them on the podcast yet, so I don't know if we can make that claim. If I made that claim about this.

510
01:01:54,656 --> 01:01:56,640
Chris: If I. I just wanted to admit that were edgelords.

511
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:03,424
Kayla: Yeah, we're definitely edge lords. Yeah, the. The video. I don't really want to watch another one.

512
01:02:03,472 --> 01:02:43,260
Chris: Well, too bad. Before we do, though, I'm really gonna sound like a broken record in this episode, because I'm gonna keep saying this over and over. But again, I'm sorry to current and or former TFU members out there, if any of you are listening. I know that I, in particular, coming off as, like, a judgmental dickhead here, and I'm like, they're not charismatic. And I guess I am a judgmental dickhead. So that's probably why I'm coming off as one, really. My intent is not to insult any choices you've made or anything you believe in. Your deserving of respect and understanding, and your views of the world are as valid as mine. But at the same time, I personally have to call out bullshit when I think I see it. That's just part of what culture just weird is all about.

513
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:52,362
Chris: And this twin flames are scientifically proven. Video is just not science, and I.

514
01:02:52,386 --> 01:03:21,992
Kayla: Don'T think that there is any. It's like you talked about before. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a potential concept for something like twin flames. I think that what you and I have talked about so far, we're identifying the issues in the concept as it has been presented so far that don't necessarily go like, this concept sucks, but it's like, oh, these aspects of this make it rife for abuse, make it ripe for self blame and shame and.

515
01:03:22,136 --> 01:03:22,752
Chris: Right.

516
01:03:22,896 --> 01:03:39,336
Kayla: If there is a version of this that doesn't incorporate those, I think, inherently negative qualities go with God. Like, if. No, like, truly, like, if you. I don't care what you do if you are not hurting yourself or others.

517
01:03:39,488 --> 01:03:42,312
Chris: Right. But again, the problem with important that.

518
01:03:42,336 --> 01:03:48,640
Kayla: People be able to do what they want. And I'm going to identify, like, oh, but this is injurious to yourself or others.

519
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:59,080
Chris: Sure, but if somebody's gonna say, like, what I want to do is run around a track carrying a bucket of nitroglycerin, I'm gonna say, like, cool, if that's what you want to do. But that's a really dangerous thing.

520
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:00,584
Kayla: It's danger to yourself or others.

521
01:04:00,712 --> 01:04:36,288
Chris: Careful. And this isn't in my script here, but I will mention we are gonna dig into this more in the next episode. But one of the things that comes up a lot when. Or at least that I've seen come up a lot when people in this community talk about, like, believing in it is there's like, there is apparently a lot of doubt that goes along with this. There's a lot of, like, well, people don't think this is real, and I think it's real. And a big part of that is they all seem to say, or most that I've seen seem to say they've had this experience where they've felt sort of what Jeff and Shalia were just talking about.

522
01:04:36,344 --> 01:04:56,530
Chris: Wherever, you know, you meet someone and it's like you've known them forever, and you just have this, like, really intense attraction, this really intense relationship. And how else can you explain it? Right? And so that's something that members of the community talk about a lot when they say, like, oh, well, the doubters are just gonna doubt. I know I had this experience.

523
01:04:56,610 --> 01:04:57,258
Kayla: Right.

524
01:04:57,434 --> 01:05:00,922
Chris: So, again, this is something that we'll address in the next episode.

525
01:05:01,106 --> 01:05:03,110
Kayla: Wait, can I address it here?

526
01:05:03,580 --> 01:05:06,620
Chris: No. Okay, fuck you. No, go. Yeah, go ahead.

527
01:05:06,660 --> 01:05:07,028
Kayla: I just.

528
01:05:07,084 --> 01:05:47,574
Chris: Well, let me. Sorry. Let me. Let me wrap up my thought and then tell me what you think. So we're gonna address it more next episode. I do think that the experiences clearly are valid. Right. Clearly these are experiences that are people are having. Like, that's not. What's that issue? Certainly not to me. What's that issue is the explanation for the phenomenon. Right. It's like seeing an eclipse. The first person to see an eclipse, people were probably like, you didn't see an eclipse? What the fuck are you talking about? The sun disappeared. Fuck you. But they did have that experience, right? They did see an eclipse. Now, we know now, through scientific reasoning, whatever, that it's, you know, okay, well, it's the moon coming between the earth and the sun, and this is how it works. And there's angles and yada, yada orbital dynamics.

529
01:05:47,622 --> 01:05:56,318
Chris: Right. The explanation at the time was maybe more supernatural or magical. That's sort of what I'm saying here is I believe that these people definitely saw an eclipse.

530
01:05:56,374 --> 01:05:56,836
Kayla: Right.

531
01:05:56,958 --> 01:06:02,680
Chris: I am maybe questioning their explanation for why the eclipse happened and what the source of that was.

532
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:07,808
Kayla: That's. See, this is why we're twin flames, because that's exactly what I was gonna say.

533
01:06:07,864 --> 01:06:15,584
Chris: Oh, man. We are just 100% compatible because, you know, if we're only 99.9% compatible with. Not twin flames, according to Jeff and.

534
01:06:15,592 --> 01:07:00,282
Kayla: Shalia, I do believe that, going back to the initial question that you opened with, I absolutely believe that there are people that meet and feel like this, and then it does work out. Of course, I believe that exists because there are 7 billion people in the world right now. There's been however many people throughout the history of humankind. Of course there are going to be those situations where two people meet. It's really intense. 100% compatibility, and it works out, and it's a great relationship. I watched reality television. I know that this happens, but, yeah. So I don't want to discount that experience at all, because if you did experience that. Yeah, of course that would be, like, crazy and transformative.

535
01:07:00,346 --> 01:07:02,242
Chris: They call it transformer. They call it life changing.

536
01:07:02,306 --> 01:07:27,268
Kayla: Yeah, that would be a really. It would be that experience. It's just. Yes. Seeing how it can be twisted or used for the powers of evil or, turned into a cult by people like this, or even. Even just the, like, perfectionism of. It has to be 100% compatibility, or else it's not this.

537
01:07:27,364 --> 01:07:29,012
Chris: Yeah, there's a lot of perfectionism.

538
01:07:29,156 --> 01:07:36,668
Kayla: Ism because, like, here, if. If you're twin flames, like, okay, I don't agree with myself on most things. I have.

539
01:07:36,724 --> 01:07:37,876
Chris: You're wrong all the time.

540
01:07:37,948 --> 01:07:43,718
Kayla: I have. I have two different thoughts and feelings about most things that I have opinions on.

541
01:07:43,814 --> 01:07:44,318
Chris: Mm.

542
01:07:44,374 --> 01:07:56,230
Kayla: So why would I expect another embodiment of myself? Why would I expect to agree with that 100% of the time when I don't even agree with, well, being in agreement?

543
01:07:56,270 --> 01:07:57,358
Chris: It's about compatibility.

544
01:07:57,494 --> 01:08:00,974
Kayla: But I talked about, like, desires and, like, those.

545
01:08:01,022 --> 01:08:02,574
Chris: Yeah, a lot of different things.

546
01:08:02,622 --> 01:08:08,132
Kayla: Yeah, well, I'm just saying, you know, my dreams can differ from day to day. My desires and a partner can differ from.

547
01:08:08,246 --> 01:08:23,256
Chris: Well, remember Shaliah said you have to be, like, really certain what they are. Cause otherwise you might find the wrong twin flame. And then you're gonna show up at my doorstep and you're gonna be like, chris, I'm your twin flame. And then I'm gonna be like, all right, I guess so. And then I'm gonna bail on you, and you won't even know that I'm gone.

548
01:08:23,328 --> 01:08:40,805
Kayla: I'm just saying, if you were in the shower, a twin flame experience like this, and then you watch a video and go, that goes, if it's 99%, and then it's not good enough, and you go, but, oh, we had to have a difference of opinion on this one thing that doesn't invalidate your relationship. And I hope you guys have a good time and love each other a lot.

549
01:08:40,957 --> 01:08:47,358
Chris: We will definitely get more to that in the next episode. I just wanted to kind of mention it a little bit here.

550
01:08:47,413 --> 01:08:47,974
Kayla: So did I.

551
01:08:48,022 --> 01:08:50,278
Chris: But we are going to. That's because we're twin flames.

552
01:08:50,334 --> 01:08:50,685
Kayla: Yep.

553
01:08:50,758 --> 01:08:58,590
Chris: So we're going to watch another video now. It's called the top ten reasons why people quit trying to find a union with their twin flame. You want to see it?

554
01:08:58,630 --> 01:08:59,326
Kayla: Yeah.

555
01:08:59,518 --> 01:09:21,500
Chris: Okay. It's funny because in my script, I wrote a. Too bad, because I was assuming you were gonna say no. So here we go. And then we'll be right back. And again, listeners, we will link to this in the show notes. Okay, so what'd you think about the top ten reasons why people quit?

556
01:09:21,660 --> 01:09:23,036
Kayla: I could have written that one.

557
01:09:23,148 --> 01:09:28,852
Chris: My favorite part was when he was talking about, like, they got to a reason that confused Jeff.

558
01:09:28,916 --> 01:09:32,542
Kayla: And then I remember channeling that, but I don't know what it means.

559
01:09:32,645 --> 01:09:36,326
Chris: He got confused, and he said he remembered channeling it and. Yeah, I don't know.

560
01:09:36,358 --> 01:09:42,050
Kayla: Well, what I like is that Shaleya was like, no, it's really simple. Here's what it means. She schooled him.

561
01:09:43,069 --> 01:09:54,702
Chris: Yeah. I mentioned this to you when were watching the videos, too, but there's another video. I mean, there's millions of videos, but another one I watched that was about, how do you quote unquote reveal your twin flame?

562
01:09:54,766 --> 01:09:55,348
Kayla: Yeah.

563
01:09:55,494 --> 01:10:06,752
Chris: And I thought it was gonna be like this. This big, crazy, spiritual, like, this really interesting way. Like, you have to meditate and then get right with God and then do this.

564
01:10:06,776 --> 01:10:07,940
Kayla: Get right with yourself.

565
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,344
Chris: Yeah. Which I know is all, like, part of it. So this, you know, but you'd expect.

566
01:10:12,392 --> 01:10:13,152
Kayla: The video to, like.

567
01:10:13,176 --> 01:10:36,002
Chris: But I would expect the video to kind of really go into that, and maybe I just was watching the wrong one. I don't know. But basically her example was like, well, part of how I knew Jeff was my twin flame was that I saw him playing with kids, and he was good with kids, and I want kids, so I felt like were really compatible that way. And I was like, that's it. That's how twin flame is. Like, your eternal soul.

568
01:10:36,146 --> 01:10:37,170
Kayla: You're made out of the soul material.

569
01:10:37,210 --> 01:11:02,644
Chris: You're made out of the same soul material God made you for yourself. If you're wrong about that and you get with this person, that's not good. If you're. If you're incorrect about your soul, your twin flame, like, you're either gonna trample somebody's boundaries or you're gonna be miserable or both. Like, it has to be really. I felt like. I don't know, like that when she said that, I was like, that's just regular compatibility.

570
01:11:02,772 --> 01:11:21,648
Kayla: Yeah, that's normal, you know? Like, and are they saying that in order to have a happy life, you must do this? Or are they saying, like, if you're interested in this is how you do it? Like, are they saying that this is something that, like, everyone must have, or else they are not fulfilling? Or are they saying, like, tough to say?

571
01:11:21,704 --> 01:11:24,272
Chris: Exactly, but it. It feels like maybe this is a.

572
01:11:24,296 --> 01:11:27,360
Kayla: Question for the larger, like, twin flame community. I'm interested, potentially.

573
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:52,910
Chris: Yeah. My impression of it, particularly from that video, when they were answering questions, like, you know, what about people who say they're just, like, they don't feel like they need to? Like, remember they went into that. Oh, well, how could you not need to? Of course you need to. So it felt like there's definitely some. I don't want to say the word mandatory, but it's like, if you don't. If you don't union, whatever, you don't unionize.

574
01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:56,970
Kayla: Yes. You better union on this podcast, at least on my side.

575
01:11:57,430 --> 01:12:23,992
Chris: No, but they were saying, like, if you don't find that union, then, like, this is really bad. You need to find that union. You can possibly still, like, live a life. I don't know if they would consider it fulfilling, but I think that just in their minds, there. There's such a large differential between your state of life and mind before and after this union that even if your life was okay before, you are irresistibly compelled to find it, to have an union.

576
01:12:24,056 --> 01:12:24,660
Kayla: Right.

577
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,016
Chris: So one more video, and then I promise I'll stop subjecting you to this.

578
01:12:29,128 --> 01:12:31,456
Kayla: Our listeners don't want us to keep leaving them.

579
01:12:31,648 --> 01:12:35,424
Chris: Well, in their ears, we're only gonna be gone for, like, literally, like, half second.

580
01:12:35,472 --> 01:12:38,096
Kayla: They miss us. Cause we're twin flames with them. You said it.

581
01:12:38,208 --> 01:12:45,592
Chris: On our side, it's like 15 minutes, but on their side, it's like, no time. So this next video is just Jeff, and, boy, is he mad.

582
01:12:45,696 --> 01:12:49,220
Kayla: No, I don't want to watch mad Jeff. He's. I'm not. I don't want that.

583
01:12:49,640 --> 01:13:06,856
Chris: Remember earlier in the show, I mentioned that the twin Flames universe is in the midst of some drama? It's interesting because I feel like we're usually talking about, like, a cult or a group or whatever, and the shenanigans that they're up to or whatever have already transpired, like, the process church or the Woodman or whatever.

584
01:13:06,928 --> 01:13:07,570
Kayla: Right. I.

585
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:16,350
Chris: And, like, I know a lot of our groups are still around, but TFU and Jeff and Shalia are sort of, like, in the middle of some hot off the presses stuff that's gone down.

586
01:13:16,430 --> 01:13:17,570
Kayla: Is everyone okay?

587
01:13:18,070 --> 01:13:38,310
Chris: Yeah. Well, no, I mean, they're not okay in the sense that, like, a meteor hit and people got injured, but people that are and have been members of their group have come out. And so remember the vice article? We'll get to that. There's some things that they are claiming. Oh, no, they're not okay.

588
01:13:38,390 --> 01:13:41,814
Kayla: I don't want to watch this video of Jeff. I don't. I don't. I don't get a good vibe.

589
01:13:41,942 --> 01:14:24,110
Chris: But, yeah, they've recently had an exodus of sorts, and I. I don't know if, like, exodus is probably not the right word. I actually don't have a good number that I found for either how large their member base is or how many have left them. But let's just say multiple members have left recently. And as mentioned in our sources earlier, vice, God bless their souls, have released not one, but two articles about tfU this year, which we'll talk about in just a second. But first, I owe you a rant video. Don't worry, listeners, again, we will link this material in the show notes. So how about that?

590
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:26,780
Kayla: I mean.

591
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:30,260
Chris: Oh boy.

592
01:14:31,120 --> 01:15:08,594
Kayla: Where to begin? Jeff is in this video is. Is very upset over the reporting of in Vice on twin Flame universe. He claims that the vice article is all lies and there's just a group of haters who I'm assuming are ex members, are out to dismantle his reputation because, you know, they've abandoned their twin flame search. And the vice reporters, instead of reporting on the truth, have simply reported on the lies of these ex haters or no haters. Ex members.

593
01:15:08,682 --> 01:15:12,510
Chris: Ex members who are current haters, I guess he calls them the hate squad.

594
01:15:13,090 --> 01:15:58,382
Kayla: Have knowingly published lies to intentionally get clicks and ruin this man, which if that is the case, I mean, yeah, that fucking sucks. I'd be pretty mad about that too. But something tells me that maybe this handheld 36 minutes YouTube video may not necessarily be. That also may not be reality. I haven't read the vice article. I can't tell you if it's reality or not. But what I can say is that given my experiences in the world, a video like this, I'm also not going to take as reflective of reality.

595
01:15:58,526 --> 01:16:00,702
Chris: Yeah, definitely. Highly recommend watching it.

596
01:16:00,766 --> 01:16:02,890
Kayla: There's some bias there to our listeners.

597
01:16:04,830 --> 01:16:31,010
Chris: There's a couple things I have to say about the video. One is, and I mentioned this when were watching it, but of the videos I've watched where some are like him and Shalia on a couch talking about a topic, those I did not find compelling at all. Like, they put me to sleep and distracted me. This video I found very compelling. Like, this video was very engaging. Now, it was long, but this video was like, instead of them just sort of sitting there going like.

598
01:16:31,310 --> 01:16:34,822
Kayla: So there was like, passion. Yeah, passion for the subject.

599
01:16:34,886 --> 01:16:43,550
Chris: It was coming clearly from his, like base emotional brain. Like he was really. This was a charismatic leader.

600
01:16:43,670 --> 01:16:45,810
Kayla: Yes, yes.

601
01:16:46,150 --> 01:16:54,150
Chris: Putting it bluntly, I guess. But yeah, it was also like very tinged with paranoia. Very tinged with.

602
01:16:54,190 --> 01:16:56,302
Kayla: There's a lot of paranoia. Like, I have a group of haters.

603
01:16:56,366 --> 01:17:19,774
Chris: I have a group of haters. And I mean, sure, it's your word against mine or not mine, but I guess the, you know, the folks that spoke with vice and maybe some of those might have been the same folks that spoke with us, but there's more testimony on that side. Well, and I also have some physical. Well, not physical, I mean, like files.

604
01:17:19,822 --> 01:17:21,598
Kayla: That you have documentation.

605
01:17:21,694 --> 01:17:30,428
Chris: Now, Jeff would say that he has a bunch of. And he actually has said this in other videos. He has a bunch of students that would corroborate his side of the story that love him.

606
01:17:30,494 --> 01:17:31,100
Kayla: Sure.

607
01:17:31,720 --> 01:18:01,156
Chris: So, you know, I don't know. It's. It's hard. It's really hard when you are. You have a podcast like this, and, like, we do. Like I said, we do have some primary research here. But one of the other things I mentioned in the video when were watching the video is that when he was talking about, like, hey, you know, you bad people advice, like, you're not just writing an article. It's not just a game. Like, you're ruining somebody's life here. I think about that a lot.

608
01:18:01,228 --> 01:18:01,436
Kayla: Right.

609
01:18:01,468 --> 01:18:10,220
Chris: You know, like, that is important to me. Like, I can't just sit here and say, like, I don't know. I'm just gonna, like, you know, throw shit over the wall and.

610
01:18:10,260 --> 01:18:12,580
Kayla: Right. I don't want to call someone a cult leader who doesn't deserve it.

611
01:18:12,660 --> 01:18:12,924
Chris: Right.

612
01:18:12,972 --> 01:18:18,476
Kayla: I think that you and I generally reserve our ire for people that you. That we truly believe deserve it.

613
01:18:18,548 --> 01:18:18,804
Chris: Right.

614
01:18:18,852 --> 01:18:21,044
Kayla: That doesn't mean we're infallible or always. Right.

615
01:18:21,132 --> 01:18:25,098
Chris: Right. So I don't know that's something that, like, I thought of when I was watching this video.

616
01:18:25,204 --> 01:19:11,688
Kayla: All that being said, I mean, I also want to point out that in the video, I don't have much context for what prompted this video, except for it was a vice article, but he mentioned several times that there were claims against him of abuse of his followers, that he actually is abusive. And I see that we're about to talk about it, but I just wanted to point out that oftentimes when we're talking about circumstances where a person is abusing, is potentially abusing a group of other people, the more testimony, the more closely it aligns to reality.

617
01:19:11,824 --> 01:19:34,934
Chris: Right. And, of course, probably an abuser not saying right now one way or the other about this particular person, but in this dynamic, where there's accusers and of a potential abuser, the potential abuser is always gonna deny it. Like, there's. You know, like, there's always gonna be a denial. There's always gonna be like, it's not the way they said it. It's this way. So all situations are always difficult.

618
01:19:35,022 --> 01:19:37,406
Kayla: They're always difficult to parse true to the person.

619
01:19:37,478 --> 01:19:43,270
Chris: I'm sure it does. I'm sure it absolutely does. Especially if he has students that still, you know, allegedly.

620
01:19:43,350 --> 01:19:43,734
Kayla: Right.

621
01:19:43,822 --> 01:19:47,958
Chris: Like, what he's doing or whatever, are still, you know, members of the group.

622
01:19:48,014 --> 01:19:59,158
Kayla: This is why all power is bad. Because you get one iota of power and you cannot be held accountable anymore. All power is bad. Yeah, that's what this podcast is about.

623
01:19:59,334 --> 01:20:01,486
Chris: No, it's about us accumulating power, Kayla.

624
01:20:01,558 --> 01:20:03,730
Kayla: All power is bad, except for the power that I wield.

625
01:20:04,670 --> 01:20:36,660
Chris: All right, so, as you just said, what prompted such rage from our charismatic leader here? Let me give you the bullet points from the first vice article, and then I'll talk a little bit about the second one. So, first of all, as you can probably tell from the rant video, he is very mad at its author, Sarah Berman, who frequently writes about cult and cult like groups. Like, she likes Sarah. Yeah. So she's written some. Some good stuff just to get us started. The title of this article is this YouTube school promised true love. Students say they got exploited instead. That's the title of the article.

626
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:52,358
Chris: It starts out pretty factual, talking about how Jeff and Shalia are youtubers with hundreds of hours of videos online, which you have now seen a few of those hundred hours, and how one student paid, like a whopping $4,000 for one of their, quote, ascension classes that we saw on their website.

627
01:20:52,454 --> 01:20:56,410
Kayla: Why do they teach classes on ascension? What does that have to do with twin flames?

628
01:20:57,590 --> 01:20:58,510
Chris: We'll get to that.

629
01:20:58,590 --> 01:20:59,398
Kayla: Oh, man.

630
01:20:59,534 --> 01:21:09,812
Chris: And then it goes on to talk about some of the students experiences that they interviewed. They being vice. According to the article, it was six former students and three parents of current members.

631
01:21:09,996 --> 01:21:10,716
Kayla: Okay.

632
01:21:10,828 --> 01:22:03,452
Chris: Among the exploitations chronicled were gaslighting and manipulation into free labor for Jeff and Shalia, for twin flames universe. Monetary exploitation, which he talked about in his video. Discouragement from seeking professional mental health care, which I personally have also seen in the documentation I've mentioned in our sources. Pressure to cut ties with friends and family. Verbal abuse to members that would either question or resist or disagreed with any of the trainings or teachings or processes. Jeff would always claim to be like, I'm just trying to meet you on your level and motivate you to see the true path that you need to take, or whatever. Of his verbal abuse or of his alleged verbal abuse. Excuse me. And one former member claimed that Jeff scammed him out of a, quote, album's worth of music for no pay.

633
01:22:03,556 --> 01:22:04,308
Kayla: Oh, no.

634
01:22:04,444 --> 01:22:14,196
Chris: Which is kind of like what we're doing with the music on our show. Yeah, sorry, Ryan, but I mean, we're definitely cult leaders aspiring. It gets better.

635
01:22:14,348 --> 01:22:16,160
Kayla: No, better or worse.

636
01:22:16,660 --> 01:22:37,054
Chris: You know what better means on our show? How about a quote from the article, some students faced arrest and involuntary psychiatric treatment in the wake of their involvement with twin Flames universe X members said. Vice has also reviewed group messages between twin Flames highest ranks discussing how to handle a student's death by suicide.

637
01:22:37,142 --> 01:22:37,990
Kayla: Oh, no.

638
01:22:38,150 --> 01:22:54,360
Chris: In Facebook posts, the couple leading twin Flames universe openly called. And this is Jeff and Chileah openly call themselves the master Christ. And their associates are now attempting to start a tax exempt church based on their teachings. According to Jeff.

639
01:22:56,380 --> 01:23:04,180
Kayla: There it is. Okay. Because I was like, oh, no, this is like a teal situation. And I was like, oh, no, this is like a teal situation.

640
01:23:04,340 --> 01:23:06,772
Chris: Yeah, of course. Jeff and Shalea deny all this.

641
01:23:06,836 --> 01:23:09,772
Kayla: Wait, so Jeff and shale deny that they are the master Christ and are.

642
01:23:09,796 --> 01:23:34,132
Chris: Trying to make a church. They deny that they're running a cult, because that's the exact accusation they got from their ex members and the exact through line of this vice article. The article even talks to John Jalalich, who we hope to one day have on the show, who is a cult expert. But what Jeff and Shaleah, hilariously don't deny is calling themselves Master Christ. They admit that they're like, yeah, we've said that before.

643
01:23:34,196 --> 01:23:35,284
Kayla: So they together?

644
01:23:35,412 --> 01:23:35,628
Chris: Oh.

645
01:23:35,644 --> 01:23:36,292
Kayla: Cause they're the same person.

646
01:23:36,316 --> 01:23:37,500
Chris: I'm not super clear on it.

647
01:23:37,540 --> 01:23:43,220
Kayla: Well, but if they're twin flames, then they're the same person. So then they can have one single title. Do you know what this reminds me?

648
01:23:43,260 --> 01:23:44,240
Chris: Sounds logical.

649
01:23:45,420 --> 01:23:53,538
Kayla: The process church of the final judgment. They called themselves the two. Marianne McClain and whoever the dude was. They called themselves the omega.

650
01:23:53,634 --> 01:24:00,350
Chris: Ooh. So there you go. That's. They could be reincarnated. Twin flames from.

651
01:24:00,930 --> 01:24:02,306
Kayla: I don't think those people were twin flames.

652
01:24:02,378 --> 01:24:02,866
Chris: Oh, really?

653
01:24:02,938 --> 01:24:03,818
Kayla: No. Where were they got to?

654
01:24:03,874 --> 01:24:07,990
Chris: Maybe if they were twin flames, then none of this would have transpired.

655
01:24:08,810 --> 01:24:11,670
Kayla: So they're trying to make their own church. Based on what?

656
01:24:13,450 --> 01:24:15,962
Chris: Based on the YouTube teachings that I showed you.

657
01:24:16,146 --> 01:24:18,786
Kayla: Your own church does not mean your own religion. It just means your own household.

658
01:24:18,818 --> 01:24:21,450
Chris: It means you don't have to pay taxes. That's what it means.

659
01:24:22,230 --> 01:24:25,094
Kayla: But I'm trying to understand from their perspective.

660
01:24:25,262 --> 01:24:30,302
Chris: Yeah, from their perspective, they have a thing making money, which they have to pay tax on.

661
01:24:30,326 --> 01:24:36,210
Kayla: I'm just saying, are they making a religion or are they making a house of worship for regular God?

662
01:24:36,710 --> 01:24:43,574
Chris: Oh, I think. Like their own little religion thing. I think. I think. I don't think it's like we're just gonna have another catholic church. I think.

663
01:24:43,622 --> 01:24:48,368
Kayla: So when they talk about God, what are they talking about? Are they talking about, like, the Judeo Christianity God, Orlando?

664
01:24:48,414 --> 01:24:50,236
Chris: Like, like, so they can just go.

665
01:24:50,308 --> 01:24:56,540
Kayla: It'S totally cool with God if you go make your own religion and call yourself the master Christ. That is cult speak, my friend.

666
01:24:56,620 --> 01:25:05,308
Chris: I'm not super clear on it, but I think the idea is, like, one of these. I think it's the you are God thing. So it's like, we're all master Christ, but we get to call it, oh.

667
01:25:05,324 --> 01:25:06,156
Kayla: We'Re the master Christ.

668
01:25:06,188 --> 01:25:11,708
Chris: We're the real, like. Or we're all christs, but we're the master Christ. I don't know. That's literally, I haven't studied this.

669
01:25:11,764 --> 01:25:19,950
Kayla: Every cult leader like that is Jim Jones. I don't know. I could be making it up. It's Jim Jones. That's. That's Waco. Is that the same guy? I don't know.

670
01:25:20,030 --> 01:25:21,542
Chris: No, that's David Koresh.

671
01:25:21,606 --> 01:25:24,662
Kayla: David Koresh. Thank you. David Crash definitely called himself, like, Jesus, right?

672
01:25:24,726 --> 01:25:28,982
Chris: Oh, yeah. Oh, he's, well, Christ. Remember, Jesus is the name. Christ is the title.

673
01:25:29,006 --> 01:25:30,142
Kayla: No, he Jesus.

674
01:25:30,286 --> 01:25:43,474
Chris: Anyway, the article also dishes some information on how financially well off Jeff and Shalia are thanks to twin flames universe. I want to know that naturally, there's a lot of prosperity gospel in the way they accept, explain their wealth, deservedness.

675
01:25:43,562 --> 01:25:44,458
Kayla: No, really?

676
01:25:44,594 --> 01:25:58,010
Chris: Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't know if they say, like, we're prosperity gospel, but it's the exact same line of reasoning of, like, I just. We bring up. We bring about these healing teachings, and if you help people, then you deserve your money, which is.

677
01:25:58,050 --> 01:25:58,874
Kayla: Yes. All of that. Yes.

678
01:25:58,922 --> 01:26:00,706
Chris: Not terrible and wrong.

679
01:26:00,778 --> 01:26:09,330
Kayla: No, it's not. I just, given what I had seen, this, to me, looked like an astronaut cult. Not a successful cult.

680
01:26:09,450 --> 01:26:12,410
Chris: Oh, no, no. They got the monies.

681
01:26:12,490 --> 01:26:22,714
Kayla: See, that's very. That is complete. That is completely different context for me watching these videos. I was like, oh, yeah, this is people like a lower level at.

682
01:26:22,722 --> 01:26:24,070
Chris: The time, I think it was.

683
01:26:25,210 --> 01:26:33,910
Kayla: But even that last video, I'm like, oh, man, I would. I would have guessed a living wage enough, like, making enough money to live off of this.

684
01:26:34,070 --> 01:26:35,662
Chris: Dude, you saw the size of their house.

685
01:26:35,766 --> 01:26:36,630
Kayla: I didn't.

686
01:26:36,790 --> 01:26:39,926
Chris: He was, like, walking around upstairs in different rooms.

687
01:26:40,038 --> 01:26:41,370
Kayla: I was looking at his hair.

688
01:26:42,070 --> 01:26:46,410
Chris: His hair was beautiful. Jeff, if you're listening to this, oh, gorgeous. I love your hair.

689
01:26:46,710 --> 01:26:48,078
Kayla: Hair beard combo. Moi.

690
01:26:48,134 --> 01:26:59,486
Chris: Also, by the way, just as an aside here, like, totally, if you guys are listening to this and want to come on the show, culturejustweirdmail.com, please reach out to us. Would love to hear your side of things. Absolutely.

691
01:26:59,598 --> 01:27:04,446
Kayla: Also, I appreciate the fact that you're not going out and getting a haircut in the time of Covid-19.

692
01:27:04,518 --> 01:27:04,862
Chris: That's right.

693
01:27:04,886 --> 01:27:20,086
Kayla: And your hair looks great. But what I'm saying is that it's a completely different context now for me to know, like, there's one thing that they're financially successful. One thing when there's, like, a baby cult leader, and I'm using that term as a shorthand.

694
01:27:20,118 --> 01:27:20,798
Chris: Charismatic leader.

695
01:27:20,854 --> 01:27:34,352
Kayla: Like a bait? No, like a budding charismatic leader doggedly defending their position. And it's a different context. When it is an already successful one doggedly defending their position, it's a slightly different context.

696
01:27:34,376 --> 01:27:36,896
Chris: He has more to lose. That's why he's upset about the vice.

697
01:27:36,928 --> 01:27:45,832
Kayla: I know, but I was watching that as somebody who was still clawing their way up, not as somebody who was clawing to hold on to what they had built.

698
01:27:46,016 --> 01:27:50,626
Chris: Right. Anyway, then it gets into the really crazy shit.

699
01:27:50,808 --> 01:27:51,530
Kayla: What?

700
01:27:53,550 --> 01:27:54,750
Chris: Oh, yeah, there's more.

701
01:27:54,830 --> 01:28:01,590
Kayla: Wait. And you were like, oh, how is this gonna live up to your episode? This is better than soul phone. This is soul mates.

702
01:28:01,630 --> 01:28:03,142
Chris: But I'm gonna make you wait a little bit.

703
01:28:03,166 --> 01:28:05,254
Kayla: Soul mates. Soul mates.

704
01:28:05,382 --> 01:28:34,416
Chris: Oh, my God. That's the name of this episode. Soul mates. Actually, it is. Anyway, don't worry. We will indeed get to that. I'm sorry. This particular vice article was just way too full to the brim with insanity. And also, we're running out of time on. On this episode, even considering it being a two parter. Whoo. Okay, so I don't know if you remember from that rant video were just talking about, but Jeff mentioned that as a result of this article, at least according to him, police actually showed up to his doorstep.

705
01:28:34,448 --> 01:28:36,904
Kayla: Yeah, I would like to know more about this.

706
01:28:36,952 --> 01:28:52,618
Chris: Yeah, I mean, I don't know too much more about it other than just what he said in the video. But clearly they never took him into custody or anything because he's still filming videos. But obviously, like, there was enough there that they felt like they were compelled to go show up to, I don't.

707
01:28:52,634 --> 01:28:57,682
Kayla: Know, maybe the cops, wherever they live. I don't know where they live. You said it was Michigan or Illinois or something. Maybe the cops just don't have anything better to do.

708
01:28:57,786 --> 01:29:20,920
Chris: Oh, and of course, the follow up Vice article. I promised. I'm not going to get into the details of this one because. One, again, conscious of time here. Two, we can't just keep copying Vice's homework. Yes, we can, and that's true, and we will. And three, you can really tell everything you need to know from the title of the article, which goes, accused cult leader threatened ex members after Vice investigation, end quote.

709
01:29:21,420 --> 01:29:22,924
Kayla: What does that mean? What is.

710
01:29:22,972 --> 01:29:52,384
Chris: So remember when I mentioned earlier in the show that ex members were being threatened by twin flames universe that they were going to release personal, compromising information? That's what this follow up article is about. The follow up article is that, like, after the first article happened, apparently a bunch of emails went out saying, like, you need to tell Vice that you were liars and lying liars, and if you don't, we're gonna release this information. And, like, pretty much to a person, they were like, fuck you. I'm not doing that. What's the.

711
01:29:52,472 --> 01:29:57,456
Kayla: Oh, you know what? Oh, do you? You didn't listen to the NXivm podcast, did you?

712
01:29:57,488 --> 01:29:58,456
Chris: No, I didn't.

713
01:29:58,608 --> 01:30:14,158
Kayla: So tangent for a moment, one of the biggest deals in NXIVM, whatever the actual cult part was the little. Any group, the Audi group, as opposed to, like, the Audi group.

714
01:30:14,214 --> 01:30:15,086
Chris: I know. I know what you mean.

715
01:30:15,118 --> 01:30:15,734
Kayla: You know what I mean?

716
01:30:15,822 --> 01:30:20,142
Chris: Well, for our listeners, like, Nexium is like a company.

717
01:30:20,286 --> 01:30:22,966
Kayla: Nexium, like an ML self help group. It's a self help.

718
01:30:22,998 --> 01:30:37,580
Chris: Self help. It's very similar. It's actually almost exactly like this because this also has this layer of self help clients and then this layer of executive team on top of that. Very similar.

719
01:30:37,660 --> 01:31:01,164
Kayla: And in the NXIVM controversy, definitely. If you're listening to this podcast, you probably know everything about it already, but go check it out if you haven't. There are allegations of extreme cult like activity that include, like, include all the biggies, like cutting you off from your friends and family, financial draining of your finances, including greatest hits. Getting branded as. As part of the initiation into the circle.

720
01:31:01,332 --> 01:31:05,156
Chris: That's the special sauce for nexium. Is the getting branded one of the.

721
01:31:05,228 --> 01:31:09,640
Kayla: Other one something that you needed to provide?

722
01:31:10,100 --> 01:31:10,964
Chris: Oh, I remember this.

723
01:31:11,012 --> 01:31:18,404
Kayla: In order to get accepted into this inner circle was you needed to provide a form of social collateral.

724
01:31:18,492 --> 01:31:18,924
Chris: Yeah.

725
01:31:19,012 --> 01:31:44,010
Kayla: Meaning compromising material on YouTube that if you. It was supposed to be motivation to keep you in line with the goals of the self help group. Send this picture of you cheating on your husband to your sponsor, and that way they have it so that if you ever fall off the path, it will be released and your life will be ruined. So that's real good motivation to not have your life ruined.

726
01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:45,606
Chris: Scientology does that.

727
01:31:45,718 --> 01:31:46,732
Kayla: Oh, do they really?

728
01:31:46,886 --> 01:31:55,024
Chris: Yeah, I think in their methodology, it's more like, tell us this information. Oh, right. You're supposed to give. Probe your past.

729
01:31:55,112 --> 01:31:55,808
Kayla: Yeah.

730
01:31:55,984 --> 01:32:01,536
Chris: In order to, like, help heal you. But then, like, it ends up like they, you know, record all that, and then it's collateral later.

731
01:32:01,688 --> 01:32:02,464
Kayla: I just.

732
01:32:02,512 --> 01:32:15,976
Chris: This is, like, the most lawsuit episode we've done, because now we've, like, we've talked about these litigious folks at twin flames universe. Actually, I don't know if they're actually litigious or if they just like to threaten, but Scientology is hella litigious.

733
01:32:16,088 --> 01:32:16,512
Kayla: Yeah.

734
01:32:16,576 --> 01:32:18,640
Chris: So. And I've been looking forward to this.

735
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:20,024
Kayla: I. I've been,

736
01:32:20,112 --> 01:32:24,016
Chris: If you don't. If we don't put out episodes for, like, the next several months, it's because we're in the courtroom.

737
01:32:24,088 --> 01:32:27,912
Kayla: I personally have been hesitant to talk about Scientology as a topic.

738
01:32:27,976 --> 01:32:28,780
Chris: Oh, I know.

739
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:35,100
Kayla: For a variety of reasons. But I came upon something today.

740
01:32:35,480 --> 01:32:37,232
Chris: We're already going long. Are you sure?

741
01:32:37,336 --> 01:32:42,440
Kayla: I won't get into it, but I'm gonna say I might do something that Scientology involved.

742
01:32:43,140 --> 01:32:58,052
Chris: Yes. Finally. Anyway. Yeah. So compromising. Apparently, these guys didn't have enough compromising information or information that was compromising enough to have these folks go retract their.

743
01:32:58,076 --> 01:33:04,716
Kayla: Statements, though they should have followed the NXIVM model. If you sent your sponsor something that wasn't compromising enough, they'd be like, no, you have to send me something.

744
01:33:04,748 --> 01:33:07,222
Chris: Oh, really? I wonder what I would send. What would you send?

745
01:33:07,326 --> 01:33:10,398
Kayla: I forget what the examples were, but, like, I think that some of them.

746
01:33:10,414 --> 01:33:11,990
Chris: Were like, yeah, what would you.

747
01:33:12,030 --> 01:33:14,174
Kayla: Cervix shots? Like, very.

748
01:33:14,302 --> 01:33:16,902
Chris: Oh, so, like, if you didn't have it, you would have to generate it.

749
01:33:16,926 --> 01:33:18,566
Kayla: Like, yeah, like, very intimate information.

750
01:33:18,598 --> 01:33:19,334
Chris: I see.

751
01:33:19,502 --> 01:33:26,134
Kayla: I don't. There might have been some things where it was like bank statements, like financial information. I don't remember.

752
01:33:26,182 --> 01:33:27,610
Chris: I just send them something fake.

753
01:33:28,710 --> 01:33:31,886
Kayla: Well, your sponsor was a person who was very close to you. Like, they would know.

754
01:33:31,918 --> 01:33:36,358
Chris: Yeah, but would they know what my. My dick looks like? I could send them somebody else dick pic.

755
01:33:36,534 --> 01:33:40,822
Kayla: I mean, yeah, but at a certain. At that point, it's like, the shame and the humiliation.

756
01:33:40,846 --> 01:33:42,030
Chris: I want the brand, Kayla.

757
01:33:42,070 --> 01:33:47,478
Kayla: The shame and the humiliation isn't necessarily from the actual image itself. It's just of the, like, situation that you've gotten yourself into.

758
01:33:47,534 --> 01:33:48,270
Chris: Oh, that's true.

759
01:33:48,350 --> 01:33:54,330
Kayla: It's. It's. It's. You are not necessarily ashamed because everyone can see your cervix. You're ashamed that you got into this position.

760
01:33:54,750 --> 01:34:01,410
Chris: Right. Right. Maybe we should do branded brands for our podcast. What do you think?

761
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:02,940
Kayla: I don't want a brand.

762
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:05,528
Chris: Well, it's all about brand building these days.

763
01:34:05,544 --> 01:34:11,056
Kayla: You need to listen to the episode because it sounds horrible. It was like an hour long process, and I was like, burning meat.

764
01:34:11,128 --> 01:34:14,096
Chris: Oh, yeah, no, I've heard about eating brands held down.

765
01:34:14,248 --> 01:34:15,016
Kayla: Horrible.

766
01:34:15,128 --> 01:34:52,852
Chris: It's, you know, it's painful. You're burning yourself. Anyway, let's get back to our topic, because we're almost done today, but you might be wondering, how did I even learn about this weird school thing? Yes, well, it's not always us copying Vice's homework. Okay? In this case, it was actually a listener of our show that reached out to us. So that source that I mentioned in the sources section, that's who I'm talking about here. They reached out to us, asked us if we'd heard of the twin Flames universe, the one that shared with me the boatload of documentation, the person that I conducted the extensive interview with to hear about their journey from start to finish in TFU.

767
01:34:53,046 --> 01:35:04,528
Chris: And I will be telling you a bit more about that journey, as well as revealing some of the more insane bits from the vice article that I didn't reveal just a second ago and other online research in our next episode.

768
01:35:04,624 --> 01:35:07,176
Kayla: You're literally pulling a me right now.

769
01:35:07,248 --> 01:35:40,420
Chris: I am. I'm doing a cliffhanger, man. It's all about. It's all about cliffhangers. Quick aside, going back to that rant video, by the way, in it, Jeff really liked to talk about the group of haters, if you recall, like, his hate squad or whatever, that are out to destroy him and get him to destroy his business and promote their own claims that the vice interviewees are all part of this hater group. I don't know if the person we talked to is part of this group because, one, Jeff didn't name any of the haters. And even if he did, number two, I obviously wouldn't disclose anyway, right?

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01:35:40,580 --> 01:36:21,860
Chris: Just for the sake of argument, if that were the case, if I had been talking to a hater group, if Jeff really did have a group like this trying to promote their own business or whatever just by destroying his, then I just. I don't think they would talk to our little podcast because we have, like, no reach for. We're tiny. Like, unless you're, like, really long term thinking, like, oh, just in case cult are just weird, eventually when we blow up, which we totally will. Okay, but the point is, when I was trying to logically think through, like, okay, like, am I just, like, jumping into the middle of, like, an online drama here. I don't want to be doing that. One of the things I thought of was, okay, I don't think someone would.

771
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:34,664
Chris: Would come to us if all they were trying to do is defame this other group, if they were just trying to defame twin flames universe, because we just don't have that kind of reach or power.

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01:36:34,752 --> 01:36:35,072
Kayla: Right.

773
01:36:35,136 --> 01:36:43,172
Chris: So it just doesn't. It doesn't add up to me that would be. We're not a. We're not a weapon worth using. And if there was a fight to.

774
01:36:43,196 --> 01:36:49,684
Kayla: Be had, let this be a warning to anyone who's thinking about coming on our show to defame. We're not big enough.

775
01:36:49,812 --> 01:37:32,620
Chris: Yeah, we're not cool enough. We would totally defame if we had the audience to do it. Okay. Just so you know. For money. For money, by the way. For money. Anyway, join our cult. There's also. There's also enough corroborating stories and physical evidence to suggest that any ex member might have good reason to, quote, be a hater. And while I can't read minds, obviously, I'm sure anything is possible. Honestly, the person that I talked to them long enough. It really just did sound like they wanted to share their story. I have no idea. Like, they could just be so devious that, like, their tone of voice was. I mean, they were just being this super sociopath, manipulating me. It totally could be true.

776
01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:39,380
Chris: The best judgment I can make after having listened to them for several hours is they just wanted to share their story.

777
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:41,096
Kayla: I believe you.

778
01:37:41,288 --> 01:37:48,392
Chris: Anyway, no criteria today because we still have more journey to go on. But thank you for going on the first half of this journey with me, Kayla.

779
01:37:48,456 --> 01:37:51,060
Kayla: Thank you for taking me on this journey, twin flame. Chris.

780
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:58,528
Chris: Actually, we might have to, like, just skip the criteria next episode as well, because, like, I don't know, and this is already sort of.

781
01:37:59,208 --> 01:38:02,376
Kayla: No. Oh. You do not jump to conclusions like that. We don't.

782
01:38:02,408 --> 01:38:06,796
Chris: Fair. No, that's fair. That's fair. That's fair. But you did see the video, the rant video.

783
01:38:06,908 --> 01:38:09,348
Kayla: You know what? We've all. We all have bad days.

784
01:38:09,444 --> 01:38:18,716
Chris: That's true. That's a good point. I've had bad days. My hair actually looks very similar to Jeff's right now, so I kind of. Maybe I'm his twin flame.

785
01:38:18,908 --> 01:38:21,196
Kayla: I don't think you have to look alike to be twin flames.

786
01:38:21,268 --> 01:38:24,484
Chris: I don't know. You heard them talking like, you have to be compatible isn't hair.

787
01:38:24,652 --> 01:38:27,020
Kayla: You have to have the same hair in order to be compatible.

788
01:38:27,140 --> 01:38:27,828
Chris: Isn't that what I.

789
01:38:27,844 --> 01:38:29,452
Kayla: Is that why you're growing your hair out?

790
01:38:29,556 --> 01:38:29,950
Chris: Yeah.

791
01:38:30,020 --> 01:38:32,186
Kayla: Is that why I'm growing a fuzzy beard?

792
01:38:32,378 --> 01:38:45,514
Chris: Yeah. And then I'm gonna like, dye my hair blonde. Actually, I don't even have to dye it because it's like starting to turn gray, but. Yeah. Like, remember this? Like how the last few weeks I was researching this and I was like, this probably wasn't the best choice for our show.

793
01:38:45,602 --> 01:38:47,090
Kayla: Yes, you did say that a number of times.

794
01:38:47,130 --> 01:38:48,538
Chris: There's like no gray area.

795
01:38:48,714 --> 01:38:51,122
Kayla: I bet I'll find the gray area.

796
01:38:51,266 --> 01:38:53,498
Chris: We always find the gray area on this show. That's what we do.

797
01:38:53,554 --> 01:38:54,510
Kayla: That's what we do.

798
01:38:55,850 --> 01:38:57,710
Chris: Well, anyway, good job.

799
01:38:58,690 --> 01:38:59,430
Kayla: What?

800
01:39:02,010 --> 01:39:02,950
Chris: Thanks.

801
01:39:03,530 --> 01:39:04,722
Kayla: Should I not compliment my twitter?

802
01:39:04,746 --> 01:39:16,474
Chris: No, it's fine. It's just funny. Yeah. So we're at the end here. Obviously, we would love you to. We love you. We love you.

803
01:39:16,522 --> 01:39:17,466
Kayla: I mean, it's true, actually.

804
01:39:17,498 --> 01:39:21,410
Chris: You're our twin flames listeners. All of you are our twins.

805
01:39:21,530 --> 01:39:25,840
Kayla: Sending us that fan mail cuz we love it. It's really great.

806
01:39:26,180 --> 01:39:27,076
Chris: It really is.

807
01:39:27,148 --> 01:39:33,196
Kayla: And also I'm glad that this podcast is resonating with some listeners.

808
01:39:33,308 --> 01:40:20,456
Chris: Yeah, I mean, honestly, like the. One of the main reasons I do this is to feel myself, to feel less alone and to feel less isolated in the world. Because it seems like there's so much and craziness going on out there and there's so much like misinformation, bad information, conspiracy theories, dangerous usage of new age. Woo. I mean, there's just so much that sometimes it feels like I'm just like alone in the dark. And so when we do get emails from you guys, it helps me feel like, oh, there are other people out there that maybe feel the same way and are listening. I'm Doctor Fraser Crane.

809
01:40:20,528 --> 01:40:27,792
Kayla: No, no. Oh yeah, I agree. That was nice. Like hearing from you. Good job.

810
01:40:27,896 --> 01:40:28,384
Chris: Well put.

811
01:40:28,432 --> 01:40:31,352
Kayla: Follow us on the Internet and we'll see you in two weeks.

812
01:40:31,416 --> 01:40:36,920
Chris: Yes. Go follow us on Twitter, that helps. Go rate us on Apple podcasts, that helps.

813
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:42,410
Kayla: Go check out our website. But actually go check out our your world of text.

814
01:40:42,450 --> 01:40:43,434
Chris: Forget our website. Go to world.

815
01:40:43,442 --> 01:40:45,162
Kayla: Yourwldoftext.com. Culturejustweird.

816
01:40:45,186 --> 01:40:45,650
Chris: That's much more.

817
01:40:45,690 --> 01:40:46,778
Kayla: Leave us a message.

818
01:40:46,954 --> 01:40:48,714
Chris: Yeah, I'm Chris.

819
01:40:48,802 --> 01:40:52,210
Kayla: And I'm Kayla. And this has been cult or just weird.