S1E6 - The Catalyst, pt 2 (Teal Swan)

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Kayla: Hey, this is Kayla, and this is.

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Chris: Chris, your hosts from cult. Or just weird, the episode you're about.

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Kayla: To listen to is actually a part two. If you haven't listened to episode five, the catalyst, go back and check that one out first.

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Chris: And we also wanted to give a quick heads up that like in that episode, this one also includes some pretty heavy topics, in particular, child abuse, sexual assault, and suicide. If these issues are sensitive for you, consider skipping this one.

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Kayla: Otherwise, enjoy episode six of cult or just weird. So, outside of Tea Heal's personal claims of being an alien, a deeply ancient being who's been reincarnated many times for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years. A being who can remember everything that's ever happened to her in every iteration of her life. A psychic, a medical svant, a person who can see auras and energies, a being that has access to all records of all human knowledge, someone who has a photographic memory, a person who can look at you and zoom in on your body all the way down to the cellular level, and a spiritual catalyst akin to Gandhi or Jesus. What is she actually preaching? All of those things are real by the way that she says.

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Chris: That's quite the list.

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Kayla: Yeah. It can be hard to parse out exactly what teal is teaching. Yeah, she has an affinity for pretty much every stereotypical new age belief, like auras, chakras, third eyes, energy healing, anti vax, anti psychiatry, color therapy, crystal healing, tarot cards, on and on, just all of them. What teal's belief system goes back to is that basically all human beings are part of the same divine consciousness. We choose to come into these sentient lives, and when we die, we go back to being a part of that source consciousness. And that way we are a, in control of our lives and b, deeply connected to each other and our inherent spirituality. In fact, Teal manages to hold these somewhat oppositional ideas of one, she's a leader with special powers, and two, she's not special.

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Kayla: We all have the ability to access the powers that teal has, and if we just follow her teachings, we'll become enlightened just like she has.

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Chris: That's a pretty common cult leader thing to say. Yeah.

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Kayla: Her website describes her ideology as one of authenticity. Our world is built on pretense. We force ourselves and other human beings to conform to societal ideals, and we suppress our own authentic selves and experiences. This is why we feel depressed or anxious or lonely or disconnected. We feel unfulfilled. We turn to addictions, we feel powerless, we feel greedy or controlling. All because we can't. I missed a word here. All because we can't. Our own realities express. Express our own realities. Tia looks to heal this by providing tools for her followers to connect with their own authentic selves and the spirituality they're in.

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Chris: And the authentic selves is what? Like, the aliens with, like, the piece.

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Kayla: Of source consciousness that you are?

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: I don't know.

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Chris: Got it. That's very authentic.

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Kayla: Along the way, she's able to fold in every new age tool or belief you can think of while adding her own unique spin to it.

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Chris: So at some point, I feel like we need to talk about why all of these new age beliefs tend to. It's, like, very postmodern. Right?

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Kayla: Like, there's Ramtha in here.

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Chris: Everything is everything.

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Kayla: Yeah. Everything is everything.

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Chris: Ramtha believes I. Aliens, lizard people who control your own reality. Auras, all the things. So does teal swan. Lizard people, auras, aliens, dude.

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Kayla: So do flat earthers.

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Chris: So do flat earthers.

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Kayla: Like, literally, I searched teal swan on Twitter, and, like, one of the first things that came up was, like, a very prominent flat earthers wife talking about teal and lion of teal.

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Chris: Right. So, yeah. And I don't know what. What the answers or what the insight is here, but, like, it's a. It's very interesting and strange to me that all of these different belief systems are essentially just. They're all the same set of nine things.

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Kayla: I think it really comes down to here are the new age belief systems, and everything else is a cult of personality.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: It's like, if you were a person who's able to be a teal swan or be a Ramtha, right. It's not really your teachings, the way you teach.

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Chris: Right. It's your charisma in presenting what is essentially the same thing.

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Kayla: Because all these people, like, you watch them and you get it, you know?

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Chris: Sure. Yeah. Even Jay Z. Remember when we watched her? It was ridiculous.

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Kayla: Oh, like, from the seventies?

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Chris: Yeah. But there was a presence, for sure to her, the way she presented herself and spoke.

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Kayla: This transitions really nicely about what I'm about to say.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: Because the scary thing for me is that, like, even though I don't believe in Teal's backstory, I don't believe in her spiritual claims. I've watched some her videos, and while some of them are kind of like, yeah, okay, weirdo. Some of them are helpful. Like, some of them, I go like, oh, really? Some of them have, like, useful things to say. I watched one of her most recent videos titled depression the truth about depression that no one sees or understands. Like, I expected to watch. It's a half an hour video I expected to watch. That makes me depressed because I've watched multiple videos. But this in particular, I was like, okay, I'm gonna watch five or ten minutes of this, get the general gist, move on. I watched the whole thing.

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Kayla: I stayed at work a half an hour longer than I expected to because I watched every lap. And I didn't just, like.

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Chris: You didn't catch the teal bug, did you?

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Kayla: I didn't just even, like. I don't know, maybe I didn't just, like, have it on in the background and was, like, working. Like, I sat there and I watched.

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Chris: Watched it.

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Kayla: And the video is just her talking. There's no cool, I guess. Okay. She has. She does. Like. Like, there's a lot of stock footage involved. Like, she'll be talking. They'll suddenly transition to, like, some people on a beach, but it's mostly just her talking.

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Chris: What is it that appeals to you? Despite knowing that none of her, she has no background or expertise or anything?

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Kayla: I get into it. I will tell you exactly why I watched this video. I'm someone who has been in therapy, on and off for, like, traditional therapy, for over a decade, specifically working on the depression and accompanying issues. And this video offered insights that even I found useful or helpful.

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Chris: And novel.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Interesting.

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Kayla: Yeah. Maybe not, like, totally novel, but definitely presented in a way that was novel, or at least differently accessible.

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Chris: Are you able to share them as bite sized enough to go on this?

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Kayla: Oh, I'm getting into it. I found it useful. Even knowing that teal is fucking terrifying and she's gonna get a lot more terrifying as we go on.

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Chris: Even knowing how crazy, terrifying and evil a lot of her stuff is, you were still like, but this video.

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Kayla: This video in particular makes me wanna watch other videos of hers.

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Chris: Wow. Oh, my God.

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Kayla: So this video was basically saying that depression is the result of refusing to accept futility. That sounds kind of dumb. So let me explain to. She talked at length about how so many of us try and seek fulfillment and success from areas that we just can't quite manifest. Like, maybe you get your self worth from work, or, like, making money at work, and your inability to become a millionaire, like, leaves you feeling like a failure, so you just keep trying harder. Or you're in love with someone who doesn't love you back, and so you keep trying to get them. You keep not getting them. Or you wish you looked a certain way or a certain weight, a certain size, but you can never quite get to a place where you're happy.

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Kayla: So you like, diet harder, you wear more makeup, you buy different clothes, you're constantly working on your appearance. Eventually you burn out on you keep trying to do this thing, you're going to burn out and you are focusing on the thing that you don't have. I'm not thin. I'm a failure at work. No one loves me. So constantly striving for that goal that you can't get to is constantly reminding yourself that you don't have it.

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Chris: Okay?

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Kayla: And we're refusing to accept the reality that these goals are futile for us for whatever reason. There's a futility there going to happen. You're never going to be a millionaire. You're never going to get married to that person. You're never going to be a model. Accepting that reality feels very scary and maybe even feels like it puts you in danger of being more depressed. Like, if you go, well, if I don't think I'm going to be a millionaire, then I have nothing left to live for, right?

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Chris: If I can't have the thing that I want the most, then what's the point?

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Kayla: But she argues that it's like trying to get into a city that's behind a closed gate. No matter what you try to do, the gate won't open for you. You can't go over it, you can't go around it, and you burn yourself out trying to open it. And all you're focusing on is the fact that this gate won't open for you and you can't get into that city.

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Chris: Okay?

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Kayla: You spend all your time working on this and you don't open yourself to other possibilities of getting that need met. Maybe you could look for another way into the city. You could look for a gate that's open. Maybe you could look for a different city. The video basically said that you have to accept that the thing that you're trying to do that's not working for you is futile and that allows you to look for other places to get your needs met. If you can't feel like a success from your working life, how else can you feel like a success? Where else can you look for love? If the object of your affection isn't the one for you, if you aren't going to change, if you're not able to change your physical looks, how else can you find a way to love your body?

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: And this kind of reframe honestly felt very useful to me. Like I spent, sure, I spent the entire drive home. I have an hour plus commute, and I spend the entire drive home thinking, like, yeah. Going, okay, here's a thing that I know I obsess over, that I do get depressed about. Like, that does fuel my depressive thoughts. I know that this thing that I want is never going to happen. So, yeah, it would be really useful to figure out what I. What need. I'm trying to get met by wanting this thing and how else I can.

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Chris: How else can you meet that need? Sure. I think. I think that is a useful reframe. So as you're telling me this, like, a lot of this, it doesn't sound, and I'm not trying to, like, shit on your experience. It doesn't sound tremendously novel. It sounds like the type of thing that I have talked about and. Or heard from and, or, you know, whatever. With. With legit therapy, with, like, CBT therapists.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: And I. My question about the video therapist go, you're never.

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Kayla: I've never had a therapist go, that's never gonna happen for you.

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Chris: Interesting.

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Kayla: And maybe it's just because I've not had, I don't know. I've never had somebody go, no, it's not gonna happen.

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Chris: Well, but have you had therapists that have said, like, it doesn't matter whether it does or doesn't?

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Kayla: Sure, but I think that's a different thing.

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Chris: It's a different thing. But I don't know if it's. To me, that doesn't feel to me it's never gonna happen. Doesn't feel any more therapeutic than it doesn't matter whether it happens or nothing. But that may just be me.

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Kayla: I think there's a, for me, there's a difference.

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Chris: That may just be me. There certainly is a more radical acceptance. If you accept that it's never going to happen, then it doesn't matter, because it doesn't matter means that you leave yourself open to the like. But it could.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: But at the same time, saying it doesn't matter, I think, is it removes the obsession. Right. It removes the like. It's not that this gate won't open for me, it's that this gate doesn't. I don't even care about the city.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Right. It's not that I am going to sit here and think about not getting into the city and I'll never get into the city. It's saying, like, why do I even. What's the point of that city? There's.

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Kayla: Well, the city. The city is not the thing. The city is the need that you're trying.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: So, like, using. Using the. The body image things. Use the body image thing.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: That's the, like, gate. I think it's like, you have this goal of, like, I'm gonna weigh 100 pounds.

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Chris: Don't weigh 100 pounds. That would be unhealthy.

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Kayla: Yeah, I'm gonna weigh 100 pounds.

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Chris: And because for most, actually, that was really mean. Weigh whatever you want and whatever your natural weight is. If you're a smaller person, 100 might actually be fine.

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Kayla: Right. Vast majority of people, 100 pounds is not an attainable sure. Goal.

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Chris: Sure, sure.

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Kayla: I just didn't want to, like, project any. I'm moving on.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: And so you're gonna keep trying and trying to, like, reach this unreachable goal.

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Chris: Sure.

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Kayla: The city is. Why are you trying to be a hundred pounds? What is that gonna do for you? Is that gonna.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: Is that gonna grant you self love? Is that gonna grant you. But is the acceptance. Is that, like. So, if I can't lose a hundred pounds, or if I can't be 100 pounds, how do I meet the need of loving my body in a different way?

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Chris: So, this might be. I don't want to maybe, like, drag this on too much while we're on the podcast, so maybe we should take it offline. But I'm. I'm curious. Is the point in identifying the unmet need, or is the point in saying this will never happen?

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Kayla: Both.

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Chris: Because.

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Kayla: Both.

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Chris: It sounded like that this will never happen was the piece that you hadn't heard from a therapist, but it also sounds like the important part is identifying the unmet need.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: That's like, the second half of the video. Yeah.

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Chris: Okay, so then I have another question, then, which is, does she say, this is full stop? That's where depression comes from. Or she says, this is one thing that can lead to negative thoughts, negative frameworks, negative emotions, and contribute to depression.

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Kayla: So, my next sentence in my notes was, but. And it's a big old, but this isn't how depression works. Yeah, I know. Thiel is trying to say that this is the truth that no one wants to tell you, but the reality is, the only proof we have that this is the truth about depression is Thiel's word. And if we look at what the medical community has to say about depression, like, were answered with years and years of scientific research and evidence, and the medical community agrees that depression, like, generally all mental illness, stems from an underlying chemical imbalance that can be triggered by environmental factors.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: That's depression.

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Chris: Yes.

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Kayla: Depression is chemicals in your brain that may or may not be triggered by something that happens in your life, you can get depression without having an environmental factor trigger it.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: And you can develop depression from an.

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Chris: Environmental trigger that then leads to the imbalance that causes it. Right.

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Kayla: And you can't think yourself out of depression.

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Chris: Right. Right. So that's the whole. That's what I was thinking the whole time. You're telling me that. So, like, so, but I guess, and maybe I'm putting words in your mouth here, but you're saying that you found some efficacy from the video, even though the sort of the conclusions it draws about depression are not true. You're saying that you still found some of the things she said to be like, this is a useful way for me to think about some stuff that bothers me.

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Kayla: Right. Like, the only reason teal's method here might, quote unquote, work for me, or like, that I might go, oh, there's something useful here, is because I've done years of CBT to rewire my brain and treat my depression. And, like, I've tried multiple different antidepressants and antidepressant combinations, and, like, I found what works for me. And it's like, I've done all of this work already on depression. And so teal's teaching here is a cherry on top. It's another cool thing to try.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: It's not. If you are in the illness, it's not gonna cure you. It's not gonna fix it. You're not even gonna be able to, like, utilize this technique.

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Chris: Right. And I'll add, too, just cause, like, this is. I thought you were going down a different path of that sentence. For a second, I was, like, a little nervous. But when you say you've done this and you've done that and you've done.

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Kayla: The other thing, or am act. Have been doing well.

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Chris: Yeah, you have been doing. But you're also saying that you have found efficacy from that statement. I've tried this, and it didn't work. So the only thing left for me is teal. No, you're not saying that.

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Kayla: You're saying, I've done.

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Chris: I've done so much other real work that I feel healthy enough that I can pick and choose the precise little thing that she said out of that swamp of shit. I can take that little diamond out, and I can make use of it. But that's only because you have the skill to do that from years of work.

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Kayla: Right, exactly.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: Yeah. Because you're not gonna cure your depression no matter how much futility. You accept, like, that's just. That's not how it works. You have to do the work. Like, you have to do traditional therapy. You have to probably horse shortage medication here.

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Chris: You can't think your way out of it.

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Kayla: And because, like, my depression is managed, like, I manage it every day. Yeah, it's exactly what you said. I'm able to look at this video and go, oh, that's a useful thing to add.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: Anyway, a lot of teal teachings are like this. They provide a different way to think about a thing. And that's cool.

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Chris: Right?

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Kayla: But, like, you're just. You're not gonna spiritual your way out.

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Chris: Of people who don't have those skills and tools. They get sucked into the swamp and.

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Kayla: Especially cause this person is going, no, no. Don't go to therapy.

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Chris: Right?

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Kayla: Don't. Psychiatry and therapy is bad for you. By and large is bad for you.

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Chris: But my psychedelic bikinis will heal you, though.

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Kayla: Psychedelic bikinis, my new band name.

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Chris: That's my new cult.

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Kayla: So, okay, that's ritual. That's harm. Now we're gonna, like, really get into harm.

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Chris: Oh, this is.

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Kayla: This is the. This is the bad part.

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Chris: The bad part. We talked about child abuse.

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Kayla: Yeah. Okay, well, now we're gonna talk about suicide. We've touched on it before. We're gonna focus on it for a moment. We're not gonna get too heavy into it because it sucks. Sucky, sucky topic. Teal Swan's followers call her the catalyst or the spiritual catalyst because they believe she is the one person who's going to push the entirety of humanity into the next level of spiritual evolution. Teal Swan's detractors, however, call her the suicide catalyst not just because of her iffy understanding and handling of mental health issues like depression and suicide, but because she has espoused teachings that seemingly encourage suicide.

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Chris: Oh, God.

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Kayla: And at least two of her followers have died by suicide while practicing Teal's teachings.

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Chris: That ticks off the expected harm box.

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Kayla: Yes. I don't want to dip too heavily into this because suicide's an intense topic. It's a viral topic. We don't want.

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Chris: We don't want to bum people out or make or worse. Right.

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Kayla: The Gateway podcast focuses primarily on Thiel's relationship to suicide. If you're interested in this, check it out. It's largely about that, really.

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Chris: Oh, my God.

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Kayla: It really examines the topic in a way that we never could.

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Chris: That's intense.

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Kayla: Okay, let's touch on this before moving on, because Teal believes we're all part of the same source consciousness because we all undergo reincarnation, because we've all chosen to be here. Even if we don't know it. Suicide isn't the tragedy to her as it is to the rest of us.

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Chris: Oh, man.

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Kayla: We talked before.

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Chris: That reminds me of the Ramtha thing where it was like, murder is okay because we're all part of the spiritual something. Something.

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Kayla: Teal teaches her followers to go towards their negative emotions rather than away from them. And she encourages this for suicide as well.

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Chris: Wow. Okay. I mean, I don't know. Like, that sounds not like the right thing to do. But I also know that trying to dismiss thoughts can also be bad because then it can cause you to fixate more, right? I don't know. I'm not a psychologist.

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Kayla: But if you are feeling suicidal, call the suicide hotline. We will put the link in the show notes. I should have the number right now. I don't. But generally, from what I understand, the consensus isn't to, like, start thinking more about the plan.

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Chris: That definitely seems wrong.

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Kayla: It's to intervene.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: That's not what teal preaches.

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Chris: Cool. Good job, teal.

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Kayla: If you're feeling suicidal, don't try to ignore it or try to feel better. Face the feelings. Try to understand why they're there. Go through the completion process and decide what your choice is.

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Chris: Like, I remember she spaces and goes, do it. Just go ahead and do it. I don't believe you.

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Kayla: Not. No, I mean, we'll talk about it.

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Chris: Oh, God.

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Kayla: I remember watching an early teal swan video years ago where she talked about how there's nothing wrong with committing suicide. Oh, my God. Especially if you can just commit it tomorrow. Her argument was that by deciding to kill yourself when you're in crisis, if you decide to just kill yourself later, you remove the push and pull and you can focus on what you really want. You can focus on feeling better. It's like taking away the food that you're craving makes you crave it more, telling yourself, okay, but you can have the food you crave tomorrow. Lessens the craving.

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Chris: I guess I get the anecdotal thinking about it, logic behind that. But that's a really dangerous thing to just be like. I think it's this.

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Kayla: Well, she also says that the suicide hotline isn't efficacious, and it very much is.

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Chris: Oh, cool.

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Kayla: The suicide hotline is extremely efficacious. It's one of the greatest tools we have to intervene.

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Chris: Yes. Yeah.

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Kayla: Hopefully. Yeah. Okay. So she's like, hopefully with you know, if you can push away the plan, you can work on feeling not suicidal anymore. Her exact quote from her video, I want to kill myself. What to do if you're suicidal follows as. So here's what I want you to try. Number one, you have to know that you can always kill yourself tomorrow. You can always kill yourself in five minutes, in fact. And what does this do for us when we actually acknowledge that this is the case? It makes it so that suicide can be our safety net or a reset button that's always available to us. Why is that important? It means we can set suicide aside because it's always an option.

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Kayla: Long enough to focus on the five minutes that right in front of our face or the hour or the day that's right in front of our face. I want you to live with this in mind. I can always commit suicide tomorrow. So what can I do with today? Or if tomorrow seems too large of a timeline, make it I can always kill myself in an hour. So knowing that what I can do, so knowing what I can do in that hour, then use that hour or that day to focus completely and totally on quite literally anything that makes you feel a tiny bit of relief.

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Chris: So I don't know if I should say this on the podcast, but, like, that actually sounded not terrible.

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Kayla: I know.

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Chris: I don't know anything about suicide. I don't want to make any recommendations or anything like that. But from a totally uninformed standpoint, that whole paragraph did not sound like a bad idea.

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Kayla: We can talk about bad ideas if you want, because it goes deeper than that.

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Chris: Oh, God.

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Kayla: I'm gonna. I'm gonna read some more quotes from teal herself about suicide. I'm gonna try to present them in context so it doesn't seem like we're just cherry picking and this is what makes her fucking terrifying.

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Chris: Okay, so I don't. Maybe I'm, like, getting ahead of you here, but, like, just, you know, I'm not saying, oh, yeah, suicide. That sounds great. Like, it's. If what she's doing is saying, like, yeah, you can kill yourself because we're all part of the same consciousness. Do it, fuck it, I don't care. That sounds really shitty and evil to me. If what she's doing is, like, trying to remove the obsession via, like, you know, exploiting the way minds work or whatever, when they fixate and focus on things, then that seems less evil. Right? But again, I don't know how this stuff works.

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Kayla: Right? And she talks about, like, I'm the only person who's willing to, like, really talk about this. I'm the only person who's really willing to, like, get down in the dirt, in the mud with you and really face this and really talk about it.

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Chris: It's so important not toot my own horn here, but it's so important to say you don't know.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: And that's the problem with a lot of these people, is that there's no. That phrase is just not a part of any of these things. Like, being comfortable with being like, I'm not an expert. I don't know. It's just foreign.

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Kayla: She can't have followers if she.

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Chris: Right. No, yeah, I know. Which. That makes it evil to me, anyway. Sorry, go on with the.

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Kayla: Into the evil. This quote is from a video that was created six days after Thiel's first client committed suicide.

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Chris: Oh, God.

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Kayla: And I don't know if it was her first client, but it was like, of the two that we know of, this is the first one in 2012. This client suicide is covered heavily in the gateway. It's really awful. This woman was working personally with Teal, often one one, and she was one of Teal's original followers and dealt with really serious mental health issues. And this woman's husband still believes in teal. Like, still follows her man.

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Chris: I like. Good lord.

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Kayla: What suicide is pushing the reset button. It's not a good or bad decision in and of itself. It's not something that source either condones or condemns. You cannot say that suicide is wrong without also saying that death is wrong. Death is always a choice. You choose not to participate in the same way as you choose to participate in the first place, because you are two points of perspective. What I mean by this is every single death on this earth could be seen as a suicide because in order to die, your individual perspective has to align with your higher self perspective in order to die.

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Chris: What? Yeah.

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Kayla: I don't know what the rest of that means, but she's basically saying, like, suicide's a reset button, right?

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Chris: Because she believes in, like, reincarnation or whatever. So it's just like, you know, reset. It's like. It's like when Mario dies, right?

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Kayla: Yeah. During a workshop in San Diego around the same time, she seemed to praise. Makes me feel ill. Yeah, she seemed to praise the experience of suicide. Quote, for the majority of people here on earth, death is such a liberation that you would give it to yourself. To experience death is like to experience all those things you like at once, and then you go past that layer of reality. And you are in a complete and utter peace.

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Chris: How the hell does she know what it's like to die? Has she died?

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Kayla: She remembers.

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Chris: Oh, I guess that's right.

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Kayla: Yes. She remembers everything that she's ever experienced.

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Chris: Yeah, right. Has died in her mind and remembers it all.

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Kayla: Teal also claims. She's claimed this multiple times. To be able to tell if someone she's talking to wants to die or not, whether or not they agree. It's like, oh, no, you think you want to live, but your vibrations are telling me that you don't.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: During a Miami workshop, attendees witnessed the following exchange. Guest. Because I want to be happy and I want to live. Teal, that's a cop out. Because you don't. I want to be happy and I want to live is not the real truth for you. Do you see that? You're the kind of person who doesn't actually want to live yet. You haven't committed to life yet, so that's a lie. Sure, you would like it if life felt good, but you don't. But you don't feel like it's possible, so you would rather die. We can keep going. Teal has also been accused of treating the topic of suicide flippantly and without empathy, especially when talking about her clients that killed themselves. I see that she tries to liken herself to having this, like, no bullshit, just the fact, straightforward attitude.

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Kayla: But her detractors see it as more than that. Like, they see it as she's just kind of like, heh.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: She also incorporates suicidal ideation into her teachings.

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Chris: Why is this such a big part of her thing? Like, that's such, like, remember were just talking about how all these, like, belief systems are the same. This one definitely feels unique to her.

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Kayla: I think that answers your question.

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Chris: Oh, that's like her secret sauce.

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Kayla: That's what makes people pick her. Out of all of the people they could pick. She's specifically collecting people who fascinating are. If you're at a point where you're suicidal, you want and need help, right? And if this person is the one that's coming to you.

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Chris: Oh, God, I'm gonna throw up.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Oh, my God.

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Kayla: Like, she is specifically seeking out suicidal people. And I think that.

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Chris: Jesus.

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Kayla: I think there's two ways to look at it. There's one, this is disgusting and awful and she's being exploitive. And two, she has been suicidal herself. She knows what it's like. She truly believes in her teachings, and she wants to help people not have the experiences that she's had.

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Chris: I know, it's just, it's so hard to tease all this stuff apart because she's got merch. Like, clearly this is also like a commercial venture for her, which, like, you know, I'm a laissez faire dude, but I don't know if, like, profiting off of, like, suicidal ideation should be a thing, even in capitalism. I don't know. It seems weird to be, like I.

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Kayla: Said, she incorporates suicidal ideation into her teachings. The Gateway podcast reports on a group session that teal guided, in which she instructed her followers to participate in a guided meditation by her. The lengthy meditation asked them to focus on their own deaths. We're going to become suicidal for a moment, she says, like, for 15 minutes, these people were instructed to visualize their deaths. Like, feel the pain, feel the experience of dying, what comes after, including visualizing their own funerals. And these deaths included suicides.

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Chris: Jesus. So are we at the end of the suicide section? Because I want to ask you a question.

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Kayla: No, we still got more. During a workshop in New York, she instructed a guest on stage that she had on stage to imagine and describe their own violent suicide process, what they would do if they were going to kill themselves. When the guest admitted that it was the one year anniversary of her own father trying to kill himself, teal smiled and said, oh, it's perfect timing, which elicited a laughter from the audience. They laughed at this.

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Chris: Sorry. Keep going, keep going. Let's power through it.

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Kayla: These are just a few examples. A Teal swan watchdog website called Teal Swan Exposed has an entire catalog of examples of teal either praising suicide, advocating suicide, dangerously handling the topic, or behaving flippantly when it comes to the topic. So I'm going to be sure to link that because you scroll through and through, and there's just example after example. So I'm going to close out the suicide topic with a quote that Thiel gave during a 2013 workshop in Santa Fe. Talking directly about that client. That first client, she lost a suicide that we've mentioned. Remember, there have been two that we know of. Quote, I actually, interestingly enough, lost my first client to suicide this last year. And this was a woman who was absolutely miserable. I'm talking, every moment of her life was a nightmare.

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Kayla: And so we had that very serious sit down talk where we had to say, all right, we're either committing or not committing to life, because every time I gave her a suggestion, she'd stop it in two days. So then we have to ask the question, do we really want this to work? And what's interesting is that when she asked herself that question, the answer was no, I'm done. There's nothing that any healer could ever do for that type of vibration, which is totally fine from source energy. There's nothing wrong with death from that perspective. So she chose to commit suicide.

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Chris: This is going to be a really intense culture. Just weird episode for people to listen.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Oh, man. Kind of. Okay. Remember earlier today, I was like, I can't wait to talk about our topic that I don't know.

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Kayla: Yep.

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Chris: You didn't even warn me.

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Kayla: No.

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Chris: So this is horrific is basically what I'm saying.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: And if we're sort of at the end of this. This section. First of all, great. Second of all.

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Kayla: Yeah. I said, I'm just gonna brush on it. That's. Just brushing on it.

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Chris: Yeah. Well, actually, yeah, that's. That wasn't even my question, but, yeah, that's. Okay. That was the. That was the brush. Because that didn't seem like a brush. That seemed like an in depth dive. Okay. My question to you is, do you think that the things that she says and does with these people that she tends to attract helps more people than it harms?

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Kayla: I don't have a good answer to that. And that's kind of. That's also a question that the Gateway podcast asks.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: And they don't have a good question. They don't have a good answer to it, either. I don't have a good answer to.

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Chris: That because this is why I don't like grey area.

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Kayla: I do think people are helped by her.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: I think that if two people have killed themselves because of her teachings, that's.

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Chris: Definitely on the harm side.

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Kayla: That would make me. If I were teaching something that made somebody kill themselves, that would make me go, oh, I should probably reevaluate what I'm doing.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: I don't think there's been much reevaluation.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: I know there was one Facebook comment where she, like, you know, tried to make it clear, like, no, no. I was really sad when this happened. Like, upset me into crisis, you know? And again, like, if this is somebody that's dealt with suicidal ideation.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: And dealt with suicide attempts.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: I don't want to make judgments about their relationship to suicide, but this person is very specifically teaching on this topic.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah.

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Kayla: And seeking out people who are in.

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Chris: That level of dangerous. Yeah, I get. Yeah. It's interesting because I sort of going through this, as you were talking about that. It was kind of triggering this train of thought where it's like, even if she's helping more people than she's harming. Right. It's sort of like the train problem where it's like, would you switch the train to kill one person instead of five? Right, right. So if we could envision a universe where there is no teal swan, would there be more suicides from this group, from this population of people that, in our universe is interacting with TLC?

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: But maybe the better question is, like, even though, like, let's say that we had knowledge of that universe and we, by the, you know, numbers subtraction, we determine that she's helping people. Because in the other universe, ten people kill themselves or whatever.

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Kayla: Right?

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Chris: But maybe it should be like the train thing, where we're like, okay, I could pull the switch, but, like, in real life, because that's what we're talking about here. We're not talking about, you know, a philosophy class question, right? We're talking about real life. Maybe I would try to see, like, can I call the train and be like, you gotta stop. Or can I somehow rescue all six people? Right? So when. I guess that kind of was triggered by the thought or when you said, reevaluate. Right. So even if she is maybe helping more people than she's harming, she's still harming people. So what are you doing that's causing that to happen?

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: That shouldn't be a thing.

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Kayla: Right?

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Chris: So try to. Even if you're saving five in favor of one, let's talk about that one.

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Kayla: But if in this, like, school of philosophy, suicide isn't the tragedy that you.

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Chris: And I think, well, that's the thing, though, is that's what, to me, makes it feel dangerous, isn't it?

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Kayla: It is dangerous.

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Chris: To rational people, death is not good. You don't want somebody to commit suicide. But if you remove that from the equation, then it opens you up to this whole question of her motivation. Is she actually motivated by helping these people to feel better, to not want to commit suicide, whatever it is? Or is she being motivated by this? It doesn't matter because they'll go back to the spirit force. And that's the part that seems really dangerous.

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Kayla: There's also. It's also worth mentioning that there are people who. And this can be said for lots of different kinds of, like, legitimate therapy.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: There are people who find themselves once they start going through, like, teal's processes and start uncovering their traumas and uncovering their memories, find themselves doing worse.

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Chris: Sure, if you're starting to implant a bunch of abuse memories in your head. Yeah.

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Kayla: So, like, if the possibility is that this person is making people suicidal.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: You know what I mean?

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Chris: That is no bueno.

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Kayla: No.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: Cause I'm sorry if I found out, like, if I found out that my entire childhood was a horror show of satanic ritual abuse, probably would make me really in crisis.

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Chris: Yeah. So this is very icky. Yeah, it's very icky this whole episode.

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Kayla: So we're just gonna wrap up this entire.

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Chris: Can we talk about a video game again?

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Kayla: No, we're gonna wrap up this topic. We're gonna address population of cult and percentage of life consumed in a one two punch. This part's less sad.

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Chris: Yeah, I hope so. Cause so far we've talked about, like, implanting abuse memories into children, separating them from their parents and causing people to kill themselves.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: So I don't even know how it could get worse.

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Kayla: No, it's gonna be fine now.

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Chris: Okay. Thank God.

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Kayla: One thing I didn't mention earlier is that Teal Swan has an honest to God commune. Oh, in Costa Rica.

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Chris: Oh, snap. That sounds fun.

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Kayla: Called Filia. Now, when I first learned about Teal Swan, she was just some lady who could wrangle 30 or so guests at a speaking event and was based in a salt lake city. And now she's a fucking big deal. The Philia center was founded by Thiel in 2016. According to the website, Filia is ancient greek word meaning deep friendship and affection. So Philia, as the name suggests, is a sacred space where healing occurs first and foremost through connection. It is our intention that at Philia, each person will experience new depths of interpersonal connection, emotional intimacy and relationship.

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Chris: And maybe kill themselves.

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Kayla: And maybe kill themselves. So this is where teal lives now with Blake, or Blake, one of her followers.

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Chris: Blake Swan.

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Kayla: In my head, he's not the swan. No, I know somebody else's swan. And there's a not small handful of staff and volunteers. It is described as, on the website as a, quote, intentional business community hybrid.

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Chris: Intentional business community hybrid.

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Kayla: So I've heard the phrase intentional community. And, like, that's what.

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Chris: Isn't that what Irvine is?

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Kayla: That's what a commune is.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: But intentional business community hybrid.

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Chris: I've never heard it sounds dope as hell.

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Kayla: The website also refers to teal swan with the title the spiritual luminary, which is also dope as hell. She hosts numerous workshops at the center when she's not traveling on her speaking tours. Everyone who works there is a certified completion process practitioner, and they serve only vegan meals. The retreats fall under categories like relationships, presents, creativity, etcetera.

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Chris: Whoa, hold on. Whoa, whoa. Why only vegan meals? If we kill cows, don't they just go back to the mother spirit?

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Kayla: It's low vibration.

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Chris: Oh, you don't want to eat the low. Wait.

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Kayla: You don't want to cause harm.

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Chris: Cows are higher vibration than plants, right? Or do I not know about my vibrations?

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Kayla: I think that. I don't know.

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Chris: I'm not.

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Kayla: Please don't ask me.

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Chris: I'm not well schooled in the vibrational physics of nor I.

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Kayla: They're vegans.

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Chris: Well, as long as I can get psychedelic bikinis.

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Kayla: The Gateway podcast host, Jennings Brown, travels to Philia and attends events there in person. And a lot of intense shit happens. Like, it's just all completion process all the time. The people attending compete with each other to spend time with teal. Like, they get jealous of each other. She has, like, this entourage that follows her around.

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Chris: She reminds me of Rajneesh Purim.

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Kayla: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Very similar.

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Chris: Are they all boning, too?

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Kayla: Probably. I hope so. I hope they're at least getting some pleasure, right?

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: She hosts meditations and seminars. She teaches participants to channel. And Teal believes you can channel literally anything. Like, not just spirits, but, like, emotions and objects and, like, people who are still alive. Like, you can channel their energy. Like, people you've never met. Like, you. I'm gonna channel Oprah, and I'm Oprah now.

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Chris: Just, like. Like, random real people that exist.

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Kayla: Yes. Like, there are. The gateway podcast talks about these, like, activities where people channel.

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Chris: Can you channel Bill Gates and figure out how to make a billion dollars?

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Kayla: Like, these people who think, you know, who have learned that they had a traumatic event happen in their childhood, other, like, they can, you know, re go through the process of that abuse, and then, like, the people, the other attendees can channel their parents and, like, be their parents.

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Chris: I don't know.

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Kayla: It's also very dangerous.

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Chris: It's weird.

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Kayla: There's this amazing moment on. I know. I keep talking about the gateway. Just go listen to it. There's this amazing moment where Jennings Brown is interviewing someone at Philia, and all of a sudden, you just start hearing this series of blood curdling screams in the background. Oh, my God. And this Filia volunteer kind of giggles and says, someone's in their heart right now.

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Chris: In their heart.

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Kayla: I still don't really know what it means, but I think it means that someone was, like, getting in touch with some, like, extreme, deep, traumatic emotions. But it's like a chilling moment because it's just like these brutal screams.

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Chris: Oh, my God. This is not good.

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Kayla: Not mentioned on the Philea website, but mentioned multiple times on the gateway. Many of the people who work at Philia are volunteers who traveled there to attend a workshop and never left because they just love teal and are teaching so much. They literally just don't go home.

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Chris: Is philly, like, awesome too? Because it's in Costa Rica. They're just like, palm trees and margaritas or something.

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Kayla: Place. A nice mansion.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: Beautiful grounds.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: But these people just don't go home. They dedicate their lives to working, volunteering to work for teal.

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Chris: I'm picturing it to be like, bachelor in paradise.

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Kayla: Yeah, less nice. The website even says, like, philly is old, so it has, like, some quirks in character, but it's a beautiful place.

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Chris: Quirks in character means that there's, like, a room that is in disrepair.

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Kayla: Yeah, kind of. It looks nice, but it's not, like, the nicest place you've ever been, right? Some more interesting tidbits. Each room has a teal swan frequency painting associated with it. There are carefully chosen crystals strategically placed all around the property to shape the energetic flow.

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Chris: Gotta have crystals.

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Kayla: There is on site security, including 24/7 video cameras.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: Oh, and you can also just, like, rent outdevelop Philia. Like, it's an option on her website.

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Chris: I can.

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Kayla: You can just rent it.

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Chris: You can just rent her, like, cult mansion.

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Kayla: I also saw it on Expedia as, like, listed as a hotel. I couldn't find dates that you could, like, actually stay there. But it's on Expedia. It's weird.

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Chris: We should go.

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Kayla: Well, if you want to go to one of her retreats, they generally cost around $5,000.

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Chris: That's a really good way to spend.

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Kayla: $5,000, not including airfare.

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Chris: Do you know how many Chipotle burritos I could buy with that?

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Kayla: A lot.

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Chris: The size of the Chipotle burritos. I probably like six or seven, but that's still. It's pretty good.

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Kayla: And it's like, for six days. I think it's five grand.

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Chris: Why are we doing this? We should be starting our own cult. Why are we doing this dumb podcast?

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Kayla: Well, okay, it's 5000 if you want your own room. It's 4200 if you're okay sharing.

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Chris: Wait.

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Kayla: Yeah. You only get an $800 discount.

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Chris: No, I'm thinking of it from her perspective. So she can either get 5000 per room or like 8400 per room.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: That's great for her business wise. She's a very savvy, suicide ideation inducing businesswoman.

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Kayla: So that's Filia. That's what you need to know about that. So let's talk about Facebook.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: I guess we'll talk about all social media a little bit here, but I'm mostly gonna focus on Facebook.

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Chris: Right, because you said that she was, like, influencer extraordinaire.

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Kayla: There are two main Teal swan Facebook groups that I could find. The first is the official teal affiliated, though generally follower led group called Teal Tribe. Teal herself is in this group. And two, the love of Teal Swan society, which is just like a Teal swan appreciation group. Love of Teal Swan Society has 2.7 thousand followers. Teal tribe has 26,628 members.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: And as of a few weeks ago, I am one of them.

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Chris: Excellent.

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Kayla: When you joined the group, when you join the group, you're asked to answer a few questions to prove that, like, you're a teal swan follower. Apparently I bullshit it well enough to get approved.

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Chris: Yeah, you've done that before.

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Kayla: Yeah. Yeah.

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Chris: No spoilers for future episodes.

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Kayla: But the shocking thing to me is that I'm approved to be in Teal tribe. The, like, the specific core group of Teal swanfall I haven't been approved to. Love of Teal Swan society. That's still pending. I had to answer questions for that one too. Apparently they have better moderators. Yeah, I don't have too much interesting to report about my time in Teal tribe. Like, it's mostly just a self help group for spiritual folks who talk to each other about Teal's teachings, help each other when they're in crisis, ask questions, try and get in touch with teal, that kind of thing. It's just like a Facebook group, but they're obsessed with teal and their teachings. I'm not saying that it's not interesting and fascinating to be a part of and like, the questions that people ask.

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Kayla: It's just I haven't been able to pick anything out that was worth mentioning. It's all just like, compared to the.

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Chris: Stuff we've talked about already, that is pretty dull stuff.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: I should also mention that Teal Swan's Facebook page, not the group, but, like, her personal her. Like, this is the Teal swan page. 519,000 followers.

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Chris: Oh, that's significantly more.

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Kayla: She has 570,000 subscribers on YouTube.

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Chris: Okay, that's respectable.

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Kayla: 109,000 followers on Instagram and 16,000 on Twitter. So not a small amount of followers.

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Chris: No.

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Kayla: Before we make our decision, I just want to bring this all the way back to the beginning where we talked about false memories.

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Chris: Is this whole thing a false memory that you plan to.

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Kayla: None of this? No.

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Chris: Because it does feel a little traumatic. Yeah, it feels like you're just implanting trauma in my brain. By talking about somebody that implants trauma in others brains.

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Kayla: No, but that is what started this whole thing.

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Chris: That's a shame, because I wish that was true.

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Kayla: Teal is who she is because she strongly probably believes in false memories, and she thinks that she has, like, repressed memories or whatever. She doesn't believe in false memories. She believes in recovered memories.

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Chris: Recovered repressed memories, yes.

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Kayla: She remembers satanic ritual abuse with no corroboration. She had a therapist who has been accused and disgraced over her false memory implantation in patients still practicing and still has an obsession with satanic racial abuse. Teal teaches that we all have trauma, much of which we can't remember and need to access and can only do so through her teaching and processes. And, oh, yeah, Teal knows that those memories are really real and really happened, even if you don't, because she has access to the Akashic records, and she just simply knows everything. So basically, you can't.

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Chris: It's a way to shut down any kind of disagreement.

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Kayla: You can't trust yourself. You can't trust your memories. Like, the only thing you can trust is what Teal has to say. And in reality, we can't trust our emotions and our memories.

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Chris: Right.

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Kayla: Which is outside of Teal.

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Chris: That's a hard thing to accept for. Like, even for people that are otherwise rational and. Or hear this information. Like, it's. I mean, even. Even for us. Right. Like, it's just to know that you can't trust something as fundamental as your memories, which is essentially who you are.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Is kind of a hard thing to talk about or accept.

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Kayla: Right. It just goes back to the whole thing of, like, our memories are not photographs. They're amalgamations.

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Chris: Right. And it's not to say that memories don't serve us and, like, you know, create who we are. They do that. And, you know, generally, I think they can be trusted.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: But they're not. Like you said, they're not photographs. They're not a database. They're not accessible with perfect precision and accuracy down to the minute.

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Kayla: Right. Our sensory perceptions are not like, the be all and end all evidence of what reality is. But just because we can't trust our memories and emotions doesn't mean that we should trust a spiritual guru.

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Chris: Right? You can't trust.

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Kayla: That's why shit like science and therapy are so important, because they actually help us figure out what's true about it.

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Chris: They give us a framework for understanding what's true. Right.

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Kayla: Teal claims to do that better. And like we mentioned, many people do feel helped by her. And like I said, even that, like, depression video, I found something, like, useful and helpful in it. So it's scary to me that she can say things that are so crazy and fucked up and untrue and still offer something useful. And finally, that brings us to the end of our Teal swan overview. Do you feel ready to answer the question we are here to answer? I feel, is Teal swan a cult or just weird?

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Chris: So, okay, so here's a few things. First of all, I feel more ready to answer this question than I have in either of our four previous episodes. Yeah, I'm, like, way one side.

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Kayla: Oh, I don't want to spoil the gayway podcast. Even though I have.

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Chris: Even though you have, like, five times.

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Kayla: Yeah, she. I'm not going to say what she says, but she addresses the question of whether or not it's a cult.

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Chris: I feel we should actually say that. If you heard her say something, do.

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Kayla: You want me to say what she says?

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Chris: I mean, yeah, our show is about.

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Kayla: She definitely doesn't say it's a cult.

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Chris: Yeah, well, I would have been surprised if she did.

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Kayla: She can all. She says that it's not a cult because she's so aware that she has the perfect recipe for.

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Chris: Literally everybody says that.

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Kayla: I have the perfect recipe and I know it. And that's why I'll never accidentally stumble into this being a cult, because I'm too aware.

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Chris: Yeah, all the cult leaders say that every. To the. To the man, they all say that. So, yeah, I mean, like, we'll definitely go through the criteria because that's our schtick and apparently it's. Some people like it, but Steve said that he liked it.

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Kayla: Thanks, Steve.

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Chris: I just. I definitely feel like one way or another on this. I also. Before we go through them step by step, I don't know that last statement you made about, like, does she help some people?

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Feels like where we are now is that the balance is definitely more on the side of harm.

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Kayla: Don't actually forget that this is very biased. Like, I didn't talk about all the people that only have good things to say about her. You know, I didn't talk about all the people that, like, truly believe that this woman has helped and changed their lives. And, like, yes, it's fucked up for me to go, like, oh, you went to. You went to a retreat and now you stayed there. But if that person feels like they're living their best life, who am I to say they're not? It's not like they're being held there against their will.

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Chris: No. I mean, yeah, but that's, like, true for a lot of this stuff, right? Like, it. We're definitely making a judgment call.

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Kayla: I think it's a cult. Like, I'm sorry? I think it's a cult.

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Chris: Yeah. Well, I mean, we're definitely making a judgment call about whether people get harmed or not even.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Because, like, if you don't think you're getting harmed, but then it's. It's so, like, it's. It's really. It comes down to, like, solipsistic stuff because it's. It's like, how can I really tell how you feel, especially when how you feel can actually be unreliable to yourself?

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Or is it just paternalistic when I say, like, no, you shouldn't be at that retreat forever?

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Kayla: Because.

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Chris: I don't know. But it certainly seems to me from this, and I think that the nature of our podcast is to veer towards skepticism and objectivity. It seems like objectively, she is causing more harm than she is causing people to get helped.

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00:52:20,272 --> 00:52:20,648
Kayla: Right.

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Chris: That really seems to be the case to me.

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Kayla: It almost doesn't matter if she is helping people, if the way her process goes is you can only trust my word.

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Chris: Yeah, there's a lot.

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Kayla: It almost doesn't matter what you're offering then, because you're cutting people off from.

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Chris: Seeking help out, there's a lot of red flags, and that's one of them.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: So. So, yeah, we should do the criteria, which let's. Let's call back all the way to the beginning of the episode or maybe last episode if we break this up. So, actually, I guess we just kind of did talk about expected harm.

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Kayla: Yeah.

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Chris: So I'm giving that a strong. Strong. Yes. For me.

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Kayla: There are people that die. There are people that. And again, even if you don't die, you have the possibility of having false memories implanted in you. You have the possibility of damaging your relationships with your family, because if all of a sudden your teal's like, oh, no, your parents abused you.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Kayla: And then again, even if you're not harmed in that way, if you are brought to believe by somebody that they're the only one that has the answer. That's harm.

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Chris: Mm. Yeah. Right. So I think that's pretty clear. I might be going through these backwards. I apologize. Population of cult, which is basically just our, you know, bias for religion. Like, are you a religion or a cult?

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Kayla: That's where I'm not clear on, because hers is big. Well, Philia, there's probably 20 people there, right?

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Chris: Okay.

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Kayla: But she's got 500,000 Facebook love followers.

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Chris: Right? So maybe she's just a religion.

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Kayla: And I think that. I think that they talk about that on the gateway. Actually, that's somebody. There's somebody on the podcast who used to be a follower of her, and he says she's a cult and a religion.

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Chris: I see.

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Kayla: And I think that's a really good way of putting it.

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Chris: Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, so population, pretty big. So it's basically what we're saying is that it's not niche.

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Kayla: Right.

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Chris: Anymore. Anymore, yeah, it's gotten big. Thanks.

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Kayla: I don't think she has any, like, celebrity followers yet. Sure, but it's only a matter of time.

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Chris: Give her time. Yeah, and maybe she does. Who knows? Anti factuality. We definitely talked about the closed logical system, the motivated reasoning of. I don't care what you say about implanting false memories. That's not what's happening. It's repressed memories. That's the true thing. So there's that motivated reasoning there. There's the. So all these fault. I mean, anti factuality. There's all these false memories in people's brains thanks to this organization.

468
00:54:57,838 --> 00:54:58,350
Kayla: Right.

469
00:54:58,470 --> 00:55:10,214
Chris: So there's a lot of that percentage of life consumed. Well, for two of her followers, it's 100% forever. The end. Yeah, sadly.

470
00:55:10,302 --> 00:55:15,134
Kayla: Well, and also, like, people leave their lives together.

471
00:55:15,182 --> 00:55:16,398
Chris: They live in her commune, be in.

472
00:55:16,414 --> 00:55:30,220
Kayla: Her commune, and then also, that's 100%. People spend a all of their time in this Facebook group, and people watch her video. Like, people watch her videos over and over, and people who, like, watch them religiously, they're watching weekly or daily, and, like.

473
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:53,990
Chris: Well, that sounds a lot like our next criteria, which is ritual. But, I mean, she. Even the process stuff sounds like ritual. Right? Putting her paintings on the wall while she's talking sounds like ritual. Speaking in a hypnotic, sort of, like, suggestive tone. Sounds like. Sounds like there's a lot of ritual going on. I mean, she has a logo that I thought was pretty dope.

474
00:55:54,070 --> 00:55:54,690
Kayla: Right?

475
00:55:55,190 --> 00:56:07,450
Chris: I mean, there's her tattoo. There's a lot of, like, accoutrements about what she does. That floating around out there. And then the last criteria is charismatic leader. I almost feel like we don't even need to address that.

476
00:56:08,070 --> 00:56:14,260
Kayla: She is very charismatic. Yeah, let's. I'm like, we're gonna go watch a video of hers after this.

477
00:56:14,380 --> 00:56:16,076
Chris: Great. Well, just so you can see.

478
00:56:16,148 --> 00:56:18,876
Kayla: I know you've seen her before, but, like, you need to see how she is now.

479
00:56:18,988 --> 00:56:21,476
Chris: So if we don't make it to the next episode of cult are just.

480
00:56:21,508 --> 00:56:22,860
Kayla: Weird because we're living in Philia.

481
00:56:22,980 --> 00:56:37,700
Chris: We're either living in Philia or I killed myself because of teal Swan. But, yeah, so she definitely. Yeah, sounds charismatic. So, obviously, my bias before we talked about the criteria was that this was definitely a cult.

482
00:56:37,780 --> 00:56:38,186
Kayla: Yeah.

483
00:56:38,268 --> 00:56:45,614
Chris: And now that we've talked about the criteria, I feel like my bias wasn't even strong enough. It's super. Definitely a cult. Almost to the point.

484
00:56:45,742 --> 00:56:47,170
Kayla: Is it a religion, though?

485
00:56:47,950 --> 00:56:50,890
Chris: Well, we're cult or just weird. Not cult or just religion.

486
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:54,662
Kayla: We should be cult. Weird religion.

487
00:56:54,806 --> 00:56:58,414
Chris: Okay, let's change our podcast name. Is it a cult, a weird or a religion?

488
00:56:58,462 --> 00:57:00,170
Kayla: It could just be a weird religion.

489
00:57:00,590 --> 00:57:04,716
Chris: Oh, a weird religion. Because. So what would make it that as opposed to a cult? Just because big.

490
00:57:04,788 --> 00:57:05,772
Kayla: The bigness.

491
00:57:05,956 --> 00:57:07,160
Chris: The big osity.

492
00:57:08,660 --> 00:57:13,000
Kayla: The big osity. And also the, like, you don't have to live on the commune to be part of it.

493
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:30,788
Chris: Is it a weird religion? Good question. I don't think it's big enough. I think it's established enough, like, come back in a thousand years when there's an actual Martin Luther character that's schismed from her or whatever.

494
00:57:30,844 --> 00:57:32,968
Kayla: But she does compare herself to Jesus.

495
00:57:33,164 --> 00:57:40,472
Chris: Yeah, I mean, you know, when she eventually commits suicide or whatever, like, then we'll see if it lasts right past her death.

496
00:57:40,616 --> 00:57:45,928
Kayla: Also, I do want to say, I don't know how many times we've said it on this, but we're not. You're not supposed to say commit suicide anymore.

497
00:57:45,984 --> 00:57:46,808
Chris: Oh, I didn't know that.

498
00:57:46,864 --> 00:57:51,460
Kayla: Yeah, because it, like, criminalizes it.

499
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:52,680
Chris: Oh, interesting.

500
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,488
Kayla: It works. Commit is, like committing a crime. You're, like, supposed to.

501
00:57:55,504 --> 00:57:56,200
Chris: So what is the.

502
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:57,432
Kayla: Died by suicide.

503
00:57:57,536 --> 00:57:58,496
Chris: Death by suicide. Okay.

504
00:57:58,528 --> 00:58:00,416
Kayla: Like, you, like, they died by suicide.

505
00:58:00,488 --> 00:58:01,158
Chris: Got it.

506
00:58:01,304 --> 00:58:06,666
Kayla: Were a victim of suicide. Like, we're. I'm sure I said it during this podcast, too, but I just caught it, like.

507
00:58:06,738 --> 00:58:08,794
Chris: Right. It's hard to admitted's no longer that.

508
00:58:08,842 --> 00:58:12,042
Kayla: Yeah, the correct. And it's been a harmful way.

509
00:58:12,106 --> 00:58:25,618
Chris: Right. No, yeah, I'm happy to try to change that mode of speaking because it's super serious and again, like, you know, even though we're, like, sort of joking around a little bit about this, because this person's dangerous and evil, I don't mind joking about her.

510
00:58:25,674 --> 00:58:26,270
Kayla: Right.

511
00:58:27,340 --> 00:58:30,924
Chris: Obviously, if you're feeling anything like this, you know, please go see kelp.

512
00:58:30,972 --> 00:58:46,596
Kayla: There is help for suicide hotline. Hotline. There's a text line. There's always a therapist you can reach out to. There's support groups. There are people who actually know how to help. And Teal Swan should probably not be the first place you go to, right?

513
00:58:46,748 --> 00:59:01,696
Chris: Yeah. So I think it's a pretty clear cut cult to the point where I kind of want to ask you, what made you choose teal swan? Did you not know, like, how intensely culty and crazy it was before you started your research?

514
00:59:01,768 --> 00:59:10,600
Kayla: The only experience I had was the experience I had from three years ago with her weird ass website. I knew she'd gotten bigger, but I didn't know it was this.

515
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:18,136
Chris: Yeah. Yeah, me either. I guess you're right. From what you had talked about three years ago, where it's like, listen to this woman's crazy backstory.

516
00:59:18,208 --> 00:59:18,728
Kayla: Right?

517
00:59:18,864 --> 00:59:24,136
Chris: And then you showed me a few weird videos of her talking. That could totally just be weird.

518
00:59:24,208 --> 00:59:24,824
Kayla: Right?

519
00:59:24,992 --> 00:59:31,064
Chris: But now that you've told me all this other stuff, I'm like, whoa, that's definitely a call.

520
00:59:31,192 --> 00:59:31,912
Kayla: Right?

521
00:59:32,096 --> 00:59:35,300
Chris: Like, I feel more strongly about that than I think even about RSE.

522
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:49,522
Kayla: I think that there's a lot of similarities, and I think that the thing that tips us over the top is the suicide thing. If you take it, yeah, it's the danger. You take it out. Like, if you took that out, I think it would be on the same, like, gray area as RSE.

523
00:59:49,586 --> 01:00:12,266
Chris: Yeah, I think it would be very rse ish if it weren't for the harm. Because, like, RC, that was one of the things that was pulling me in the other direction with them was, like, how harmful are they really? Like, obviously, Jay Z is, like, a racist jackass, but, like, you know, how harmful is it to tell someone, like, you can be your best self and spirit crystals? Here you go.

524
01:00:12,378 --> 01:00:12,698
Kayla: Right?

525
01:00:12,754 --> 01:00:26,310
Chris: Like, that's not that bad. I guess. So that's why that was, like, a little more gray area. But that's, like, the. The harmfulness that you have communicated to me about teal Swan, right? Makes me go like, oh, no. Yeah, they're bad news.

526
01:00:27,490 --> 01:00:28,338
Kayla: It's a cult.

527
01:00:28,474 --> 01:00:29,570
Chris: It's a cult, guys.

528
01:00:29,650 --> 01:00:36,482
Kayla: Don't. Don't. Don't. Don't follow teal Swan. Don't follow her teachings.

529
01:00:36,586 --> 01:00:42,546
Chris: Ooh. Can. So how do we wrap this episode up? It's been, like, super heavy. It may have been two episodes.

530
01:00:42,618 --> 01:00:44,970
Kayla: Yeah, I don't know. It's definitely gonna be two episodes.

531
01:00:45,010 --> 01:00:48,826
Chris: We may have ruined a whole month of our viewers lives and listeners lives.

532
01:00:48,938 --> 01:01:04,378
Kayla: Sorry, guys. It's important to talk about. It's important to, like, shine light on these kinds of people where, like, yeah, there's gonna be people that it helps, but, like, we should be remembering the fact that this is really dangerous.

533
01:01:04,434 --> 01:01:07,272
Chris: Right? It's. It's super. It's playing with fire for sure. Yeah.

534
01:01:07,346 --> 01:01:13,580
Kayla: And it's. And satanic ritual abuse doesn't exist. Doesn't exist.

535
01:01:13,660 --> 01:01:14,280
Chris: Right.

536
01:01:14,580 --> 01:01:26,900
Kayla: Abuse exists. Abuse exists. But that exists. I'm not saying satanists are abusers, but, like, these things all separately exist. But the concept of satanic ritual abuse, that was, like, the basis of satanic panic does not exist.

537
01:01:26,940 --> 01:01:27,484
Chris: Does not exist.

538
01:01:27,532 --> 01:01:32,148
Kayla: There's no evidence of it. There's only evidence of it being disproved.

539
01:01:32,244 --> 01:01:48,758
Chris: Right. Yeah. Man, I thought my next week's next episode's topic was gonna be, like, heavy, but I think you out heavied me, so. Yeah, we'll see. I think after that, I need to pick a much lighter topic.

540
01:01:48,854 --> 01:02:00,474
Kayla: I think my next topic, we're gonna scare people off. My next topic is less content heavy, but maybe nothing like, yeah, remember when.

541
01:02:00,482 --> 01:02:16,354
Chris: We'Re talking about Disney, like, a few hours ago, I'm gonna do something with that where it's like, it's happy. Cartoons. Cult. Yay. Next time on culture, Jess. Weird. Well, that was. That was a thing.

542
01:02:16,402 --> 01:02:17,122
Kayla: That was a thing.

543
01:02:17,226 --> 01:02:18,230
Chris: Thank you for.

544
01:02:18,610 --> 01:02:22,466
Kayla: Thank you for sticking around for five episodes, maybe six. I know.

545
01:02:22,618 --> 01:02:26,760
Chris: Please go. Please go. Rate us on iTunes and rate, review.

546
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:37,300
Kayla: Subscribe, share, follow us on Twitter, on insta, on Facebook. You can email us ultra. Just weirdmail.com. We'll answer. We got nothing better to do.

547
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,648
Chris: And even more important than that, take care of yourself and take care of your mental health.

548
01:02:41,744 --> 01:02:47,940
Kayla: Check out our show notes. If you need any resources, email us if you need to talk. I don't know.

549
01:02:49,080 --> 01:03:04,980
Chris: I'm not gonna claim to have the only answers like teal swan, but maybe I can, you know, be a voice there to answer you back. I don't know. Colderjisweermail.com coloredjisweirdmail.com so, yeah, this is Chris, this is Kayla, and this has been.

550
01:03:05,100 --> 01:03:09,380
Kayla: Cult or just weird? Just weird. Are we supposed to say it at the same time? How do we end this podcast?

551
01:03:09,420 --> 01:03:12,412
Chris: I don't know. I just sort of winged it. There wong it.

552
01:03:12,476 --> 01:03:14,132
Kayla: You want me to say cult and you say or just weird?

553
01:03:14,156 --> 01:03:15,084
Chris: Should we sing it?

554
01:03:15,212 --> 01:03:16,660
Kayla: Cult are just weird.