S1E14 - The Wonderland (Tulpa Community, pt2)

1
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,870
Kayla: Have I told you about the podcast I just finished listening to?

2
00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:28,866
Chris: What was the podcast?

3
00:00:28,938 --> 00:00:29,450
Kayla: Yes.

4
00:00:29,570 --> 00:00:30,346
Chris: Okay.

5
00:00:30,498 --> 00:00:36,842
Kayla: I finally listened to the escaping NXivM podcast. Oh, and you should. I know you should.

6
00:00:36,866 --> 00:00:38,026
Chris: Are we doing them on the show?

7
00:00:38,138 --> 00:00:40,618
Kayla: No, we can't, because they're absolutely a cult.

8
00:00:40,714 --> 00:00:42,226
Chris: Well, I did. Creativity.

9
00:00:42,418 --> 00:00:47,378
Kayla: There is even less of a question about NXiVM, really.

10
00:00:47,474 --> 00:00:51,082
Chris: Creativity had, like, weird religion, weirdness, and.

11
00:00:51,186 --> 00:00:52,990
Kayla: Nxivm was an MLM.

12
00:00:53,710 --> 00:00:54,502
Chris: Okay.

13
00:00:54,646 --> 00:01:12,878
Kayla: Like, straight up. It was. It somehow managed to be an MLM, a sex cult where people got branded and called slaves. And it was also extremely sexist. Extreme. It was all about how, like, men are better than women and, like, women.

14
00:01:12,934 --> 00:01:18,734
Chris: Sounds like the trifecta right there a thousand times. Sexism, cultism, mlmism.

15
00:01:18,862 --> 00:01:25,400
Kayla: But it's a very good podcast. Highly recommend listening to it. It's very upsetting.

16
00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:29,044
Chris: How do I join Nxivm? Because as a dude, it seems like.

17
00:01:29,092 --> 00:01:30,356
Kayla: You still can, I think.

18
00:01:30,428 --> 00:01:31,284
Chris: Can you seriously?

19
00:01:31,332 --> 00:01:35,868
Kayla: I don't know. Keith Ranieri definitely still has, like, devotees.

20
00:01:36,004 --> 00:01:37,596
Chris: Of course he does. Yeah.

21
00:01:37,668 --> 00:01:47,348
Kayla: Even though, like, a lot of those people are in real big trouble and he's probably going to jail. I think he is in jail, but I think he's probably gonna get. I actually don't really know the status of the court case right now.

22
00:01:47,444 --> 00:01:48,732
Chris: We live in a weird time.

23
00:01:48,836 --> 00:02:12,340
Kayla: But, yeah. So the podcast is. It's a CBC podcast, a canadian podcast, and the journalist who, like, dos the podcast, who is the host and shit, is all, like, friends. Like, he was childhood friends with, like, the NXIVM power couple in Canada. Like, the.

24
00:02:12,420 --> 00:02:19,620
Chris: Oh, by the way, anybody that doesn't know anything that we're talking about. Keith Ranieri was, like, the head of NXIVM, created NXIVM.

25
00:02:19,660 --> 00:02:33,812
Kayla: NXIvm was a. It build itself as a self help, spiritual growth type group. Keith Ranieri was the leader of that. He was, like, an enlightened renunciate. He does call himself a renunciate.

26
00:02:33,956 --> 00:02:34,948
Chris: What does that mean?

27
00:02:35,084 --> 00:02:38,156
Kayla: Like, qinghai, she was a renunciate. Somebody who just, like, still.

28
00:02:38,188 --> 00:02:39,772
Chris: What does that mean? I don't remember.

29
00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:43,500
Kayla: Renounces, like, all of their earthly belongings.

30
00:02:43,540 --> 00:02:45,300
Chris: And, like, oh, like, the St. Francis.

31
00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:45,596
Kayla: Yeah.

32
00:02:45,628 --> 00:02:46,892
Chris: You're like, I don't need all this.

33
00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:48,580
Kayla: Shit because I have enlightenment, right.

34
00:02:48,620 --> 00:02:50,112
Chris: And I have sex slaves that I can brand.

35
00:02:50,176 --> 00:02:52,580
Kayla: Right. I don't think St. Francis had that.

36
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:54,128
Chris: He may not have.

37
00:02:54,264 --> 00:03:20,898
Kayla: So. Yeah, so that was. That was the, like, front for this cult, basically. It was an. It was a self help group with, like, education centers. And, like, it was a real big deal. Like, people. Oh, no. Like, the center in, like, I think it was Vancouver or the one in Canada was like. It's like a huge, big deal. And, like, the reason why the one in Canada got big was because that's where they got some of their celebrities, because so much shit showed they had celebrities. Allison Mack.

38
00:03:21,034 --> 00:03:22,938
Chris: Oh, right. That was part of it.

39
00:03:22,954 --> 00:03:28,770
Kayla: That's how they got their celebrities, was because a lot of shows shot there, like Smallville. Kristen Croick was in it, too.

40
00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:29,554
Chris: No shit.

41
00:03:29,602 --> 00:03:31,950
Kayla: Yeah. So that was, like a thing.

42
00:03:32,370 --> 00:03:33,722
Chris: Did they get branded?

43
00:03:33,906 --> 00:04:01,284
Kayla: I think Alison Mack probably did. Potentially. She potentially did. I don't think Kristin Croick was in it for that long. Allison Mack was also very, very high up in it. So she may not have been at that level of getting branded, but the whole, like, branding situation, like, just go listen to the podcast. Because if you're wondering how self help has anything to do with, like, branding and then also MLM, it all ties together. The whole thing about the, like, the self help group is that, like, are.

44
00:04:01,292 --> 00:04:06,452
Chris: You sure we shouldn't do that? Are you sure this isn't an episode about it right now? We could just call it right now and just be done.

45
00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:31,480
Kayla: No, because we have to finish our part two of tulpas. But for next, I just wanted to share. But because we're not going to do it on this podcast, I wanted to give a shout out to this other podcast that's already done it. And literally, the way this self help group ran was that, like, if you got in and you bought enough shit, then you had to start recruiting. You choose to start recruiting other people to come and take some classes. So it had, like, this whole MLM component.

46
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,136
Chris: Right.

47
00:04:32,288 --> 00:04:43,300
Kayla: It's very interesting. It's very fascinating. Go check out the CBC podcast. I think the podcast series is called Uncover, but season one is escaping nxivmousen. It's fantastic.

48
00:04:43,460 --> 00:04:44,188
Chris: I can't wait.

49
00:04:44,244 --> 00:04:44,884
Kayla: Highly recommend.

50
00:04:44,932 --> 00:04:55,324
Chris: Oh, my God. Hey, actually, there was something I just thought of an earlier episode of ours. Weren't you just watching something on YouTube about some recent developments with Cicada?

51
00:04:55,452 --> 00:05:02,732
Kayla: Yeah, I was watching a YouTube video from a gentleman who actually spoke with us on our podcast.

52
00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:03,708
Chris: Is he the guy that.

53
00:05:03,804 --> 00:05:06,388
Kayla: Not Populi. It was the guy that gave us.

54
00:05:06,404 --> 00:05:08,068
Chris: A shout out on a series. Yes.

55
00:05:08,204 --> 00:05:31,092
Kayla: I think he's called Pond Underscore. Pond underscore on YouTube. And, yeah, he released a new video recently. I'm sure there's other videos and other content and other posts out there about it, but apparently there's been some development happening in the 3301 community. Some people are starting to, like, solve the Libra Primus in ways that they haven't been solved before, and it has to.

56
00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:33,076
Chris: And that was the book of secrets, basically.

57
00:05:33,108 --> 00:05:43,456
Kayla: That was the book. That's the last thing that Cicada gave us before they left. And I was kind of like, remember how there was differing opinions about whether, like, they purposefully gave us this, the.

58
00:05:43,488 --> 00:05:45,272
Chris: Unsolvable thing, so they could peace out.

59
00:05:45,336 --> 00:05:51,488
Kayla: Or if it was just really hard to solve? And I think the fact that there's been some further development maybe kind of.

60
00:05:51,624 --> 00:05:52,464
Chris: Points to the latter.

61
00:05:52,512 --> 00:06:25,980
Kayla: Points to. Yeah, like, no, this is solvable. Like, somebody found interesting. Somebody figured out that the drawings in the Libra primus are, like, basically straight up, not copied, but, like, very closely inspired by a book that Jung did. He had this, like, I think it was called the Red Book. And it was just these crazy, like, I forget what the actual content is, but, like, the drawings, these, like, crazy ass dreamscapes. And so there's. There's something afoot with 3301 right now. I recommend, or I implore our listeners to go check it out. I myself haven't.

62
00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:26,700
Chris: That's exciting.

63
00:06:26,780 --> 00:06:34,816
Kayla: I haven't dipped my toes too much into it. I watched this video. I'm very excited about it. We'll have to look more into it. Yeah, but, yeah. So that's the update for Cicada. Something's happening.

64
00:06:34,888 --> 00:06:35,536
Chris: Sweet.

65
00:06:35,648 --> 00:06:39,760
Kayla: Go check it out. Get to it. Get solving solvers.

66
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:40,660
Chris: Nice.

67
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,144
Kayla: That's my business.

68
00:06:42,312 --> 00:06:45,016
Chris: I don't have any business. You had two businesses.

69
00:06:45,088 --> 00:06:47,224
Kayla: Well, I had one business and you gave me a business.

70
00:06:47,312 --> 00:06:49,800
Chris: Oh, that's true. I did give you the business. Yeah. I don't know.

71
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,872
Kayla: Don't say that. That's getting cut out.

72
00:06:52,936 --> 00:06:53,256
Chris: Why?

73
00:06:53,328 --> 00:06:54,900
Kayla: Your parents listened to this.

74
00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:59,456
Chris: Oh, okay. So, like, what about the jokes we made last week?

75
00:06:59,488 --> 00:07:02,740
Kayla: Some of those are pretty unsavory that you made.

76
00:07:03,370 --> 00:07:04,890
Chris: We as a team.

77
00:07:04,970 --> 00:07:05,346
Kayla: Definitely.

78
00:07:05,378 --> 00:07:06,538
Chris: You make the jokes.

79
00:07:06,634 --> 00:07:10,506
Kayla: Definitely you. Are you ready? Are you ready?

80
00:07:10,538 --> 00:07:14,034
Chris: I'm back in a cult. I've been playing a lot of magic arena.

81
00:07:14,082 --> 00:07:15,994
Kayla: You are extremely in a cult lately.

82
00:07:16,122 --> 00:07:19,730
Chris: You know what? I could just. I could go into that, but let's just move on to the actual content.

83
00:07:19,810 --> 00:07:21,466
Kayla: That'll be your next episode.

84
00:07:21,578 --> 00:07:22,042
Chris: I.

85
00:07:22,146 --> 00:07:24,850
Kayla: Somebody come save my husband from the cult that he is in.

86
00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:27,202
Chris: I intend to do an episode on the gathering.

87
00:07:27,346 --> 00:07:27,826
Kayla: Thank God.

88
00:07:27,858 --> 00:07:28,652
Chris: At some point.

89
00:07:28,786 --> 00:07:31,420
Kayla: Are you ready to talk about what we're supposed to talk about?

90
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:39,632
Chris: I mean, I'm not ready, actually. No, I'm super ready because I'm so excited. You said you talked to actual tulpas?

91
00:07:39,696 --> 00:07:40,380
Kayla: Yes.

92
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:41,648
Chris: Oh, I'm pumped.

93
00:07:41,704 --> 00:08:02,634
Kayla: And their hosts, and we've got a lot to get through. Let's go. Okay, so for anybody listening right now, this is part two of our episode series on tulpas. If you haven't listened to episode 13 yet, I highly recommend you go back and listen, as that was basically our introduction to the topic. And today we're kind of getting into the nitty gritty. Nitty gritty.

94
00:08:02,722 --> 00:08:03,706
Chris: Nitty gritty.

95
00:08:03,818 --> 00:08:12,626
Kayla: The nitty gritty. And diving deeper into the tulpa community. So if you haven't listened to episode 13, you might get a little lost. So I say go listen to it.

96
00:08:12,658 --> 00:08:16,618
Chris: Go back and listen to it, or ask your host to go listen to it for you, please.

97
00:08:16,674 --> 00:08:23,450
Kayla: Right. Today, instead, we're gonna talk about some of the conversations I've had, the way the community operates, like those kinds of things.

98
00:08:23,830 --> 00:08:24,822
Chris: Wait. Oh, my God.

99
00:08:24,886 --> 00:08:25,422
Kayla: What?

100
00:08:25,566 --> 00:08:30,014
Chris: You posted this on the Tulpa Reddit, didn't you? Or at least the previous episode, right? Yeah.

101
00:08:30,142 --> 00:08:37,518
Kayla: Well, I didn't post it. I posted it in the comment thread. I was planning on waiting until this episode came out and doing another post with both the episodes.

102
00:08:37,614 --> 00:08:53,558
Chris: Got it. Do you think that, like, an actual tulpa will listen to our podcast after you post this? There, like, somebody already? Somebody. Oh, no shit. Are you seriously? That is so dope.

103
00:08:53,694 --> 00:08:57,510
Kayla: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Cause I've been. I've been chatting with folks over there.

104
00:08:57,670 --> 00:09:00,930
Chris: Right. But did the host listen or do their tulpas listen?

105
00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:02,614
Kayla: Let me check my. Hold on.

106
00:09:02,662 --> 00:09:05,770
Chris: Oh, my God. I'm going to have a fit.

107
00:09:06,830 --> 00:09:10,958
Kayla: My tulpa and I just finished listening to the first episode. Yes. Yeah.

108
00:09:11,054 --> 00:09:12,470
Chris: Oh, my God. I'm so excited.

109
00:09:12,550 --> 00:09:17,450
Kayla: Yeah. This person was very. This person and this tulpa were very helpful.

110
00:09:17,570 --> 00:09:21,330
Chris: Oh, my God. I'm so excited that it's helpful. Listen to my podcast. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

111
00:09:21,370 --> 00:09:22,210
Kayla: At least one.

112
00:09:22,370 --> 00:09:24,802
Chris: At least one. Probably more. All right, sorry. Go ahead.

113
00:09:24,826 --> 00:09:41,122
Kayla: So let's do a quick recap and bring everyone back up to speed. And since we didn't really make any call in our last episode about whether or not this topic was a cult, I'm gonna go ahead and recap our cult criteria first so our listeners know what to look out for as we continue the conversation. One key.

114
00:09:41,146 --> 00:09:41,834
Chris: Here's your cheat sheet.

115
00:09:41,882 --> 00:09:56,640
Kayla: Yeah. Charismatic leader. Two, expected harm. Three, population of the cult, or whether or not it's niche, four, ritual, five, percentage of life consumed, and six, antifactuality. So those are your criterions.

116
00:09:57,820 --> 00:09:59,548
Chris: Yeah. Also our criteria.

117
00:09:59,644 --> 00:10:00,444
Kayla: Criteria?

118
00:10:00,572 --> 00:10:01,980
Chris: Criterion is singular.

119
00:10:02,060 --> 00:10:03,420
Kayla: Okay, criterion then.

120
00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:04,756
Chris: Yes, exactly.

121
00:10:04,908 --> 00:10:30,522
Kayla: Okay. Back to the topic at hand. Today we're talking about tulpas, which are basically imaginary friends for adults. Tulpas are autonomous, sentient beings or personalities that live entirely in the imagination of adults. Generally, people who create tulpas are called tulpamancers, and they're able to create their tulpas after lengthy periods of intense, focused concentration. Though this isn't always the case, and we'll expand on that today. Well, it seems strange at first.

122
00:10:30,546 --> 00:10:31,914
Chris: Wait, what's not always the case?

123
00:10:32,082 --> 00:10:37,186
Kayla: That tulpamancers create their tulpas after lengthy periods of intense focus concentration.

124
00:10:37,338 --> 00:10:38,898
Chris: Sometimes they're created in other ways.

125
00:10:38,954 --> 00:11:18,808
Kayla: Yes. Ooh, yes. We'll get to that. It might seem strange at first blush to talk about adults with imaginary friends, but it's important to remember that while few studies have been done on tulpas directly, there have been numerous studies done on the effects of imaginary friends on the lives of children. Children with imaginary friends tend to be more social, more verbal, and more creative than other children, and often grow up into adults that actually hold on to those traits. Adolescents and teenagers have also been known to keep imaginary friends from childhood, or they create new imaginary friends when they're teens. And many famous adults have been known to keep imaginary friends, including Agatha Christie, Niccolo Machiavelli, and Isaac Newton.

126
00:11:18,904 --> 00:11:36,004
Kayla: Tulpas we know them in their western, more Reddit based concept today have roots in ancient tibetan buddhist meditative practices, though it's hard to parse if these practices centered around creating sentient, autonomous thought forms, or if those practices were more similar to concepts such astral projection and reincarnation.

127
00:11:36,172 --> 00:11:37,860
Chris: Isn't the Dalai Lama a tulpa?

128
00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:39,292
Kayla: The Dalai lama is a tulku.

129
00:11:39,396 --> 00:11:40,320
Chris: Tulku.

130
00:11:41,300 --> 00:12:01,574
Kayla: There's multiple different tibetan languages. There's a lot of room for misinterpretation and incorrect interpretation and mistranslation. So one of the words that eventually became what we know as tulpa is tulku. And that refers to spiritual teachers like the Dalai lama, who are reincarnated and continue to teach.

131
00:12:01,702 --> 00:12:05,646
Chris: Feels like it's not super similar to what a tulpa is, no? Yeah.

132
00:12:05,758 --> 00:12:43,030
Kayla: Either way, tulpas as the concept that we know them took hold in western occultism in the late 19th and 20th centuries, and they became somewhat popularized in mainstream culture via tv shows such as the X Files, Supernatural, and adventure Time. And they eventually made their way as a topic to four chan and then read it where the most well known tulpa community exists today. So that's kind of the recap on the community. I'll run through some of the vocab words using the community as well. Some of the words that we actually talked about last week, some of them, like, more established standard vocab words, are actually a little bit controversial, which I learned during the research for this episode.

133
00:12:43,070 --> 00:12:43,854
Chris: Within the community.

134
00:12:43,942 --> 00:12:56,400
Kayla: Within the community. Okay, we'll get. Again. We'll get to that later. Generally, though, a person with a tulpa is called a host. They create their tulpas through a process called forcing. Interact with their tulpas in an imaginary world called the Wonderland.

135
00:12:57,380 --> 00:12:59,484
Chris: Oh, yeah. And that's a paracosm, right?

136
00:12:59,572 --> 00:13:00,692
Kayla: It's similar to a paracosm.

137
00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:01,676
Chris: Yes, similar. Okay.

138
00:13:01,708 --> 00:13:14,040
Kayla: Or it can't be. But again, we'll also talk about that in a little bit. Tulpas and hosts can sometimes switch, which means that the tulpa takes control of the physical body. And those are just a handful of the main concepts. So do we feel caught up?

139
00:13:15,580 --> 00:13:17,052
Chris: Let me ask my tulpa.

140
00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:18,252
Kayla: Do we feel caught up?

141
00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:19,024
Chris: Yes.

142
00:13:19,212 --> 00:13:51,324
Kayla: Good. Let's talk about the tulpa community itself. Last week, we mostly talked about an outside observer's perspective on the Tulpa Mansi community. So let's kind of start there again, and we'll ease our way into, like, actual tulpa. Dumb. Let's discuss two things. First, one, ways in which the tulpomancy community is a nice, constructive, supportive place, and then ways in which the tulpomancy community is less nice, destructive, or even cult like. But spoiler alert, I'm gonna push some of that to the very end to make a nice dramatic ending.

143
00:13:51,452 --> 00:13:54,108
Chris: Ooh, yeah. Nice storytelling.

144
00:13:54,204 --> 00:14:31,542
Kayla: First, I wanna talk about my experience with interacting with the tulpa community on Reddit. I literally only have nice things to say here. When I first posted in the Tulpa subreddit about a month ago, asking if anyone would be interested in chatting with me about their tulpa Mancy experiences, I actually got a little nervous. It was kind of. It was kind of the first time that I truly entered community myself, especially one that I wasn't connected to in some way and asked for help. Like, yes, I joined teal tribe, and yes, I definitely asked for help in the like, cicada 3301 subreddit, and I received excellent help and amazing support from the folks over there. But this, I don't know. It just felt different for some reason, like this.

145
00:14:31,566 --> 00:14:38,750
Chris: Well, cicada, you had done stuff yourself, right? So you could kind of go into it and be like, oh, I've. I've been doing this myself. So there's my segue.

146
00:14:38,830 --> 00:14:54,418
Kayla: If I had been interested, if I had been doing topo Mancy myself, maybe it would have felt less weird. And this felt less akin to just like, going into the solver community and more akin to, like, going into, like, cicada 3301 itself and being like, hey, guys, what's up?

147
00:14:54,434 --> 00:14:57,322
Chris: Hey, how's it going? How'd you find the secret base?

148
00:14:57,506 --> 00:14:59,034
Kayla: They'd probably be pretty pissed about it.

149
00:14:59,122 --> 00:15:00,594
Chris: Did you storm area 51?

150
00:15:00,682 --> 00:15:17,840
Kayla: Oh, I did see a post. I didn't read all of it because I got real bored and I was at work. But I did see a post in the 3301 subreddit where somebody was like, I think I know somebody who was actually a founding member of 3301. What? They definitely weren't, but it was still the headline grabbed my attention.

151
00:15:18,740 --> 00:15:20,156
Chris: Okay, was it Jeffrey Epstein?

152
00:15:20,188 --> 00:15:24,520
Kayla: It was definitely Jeffrey Epstein. We'll talk about him a little bit more, a little bit later.

153
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:25,940
Chris: Wait, seriously?

154
00:15:26,020 --> 00:15:29,480
Kayla: Yeah, just briefly. But he does come up.

155
00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:32,222
Chris: Okay, so, yeah.

156
00:15:32,246 --> 00:15:35,398
Kayla: So Jeffrey Epstein didn't think we'd be talking about him.

157
00:15:35,494 --> 00:15:47,494
Chris: No, but, nope. I mean, aside from the, like, little, you know, ha, little joke. But apparently there's a tulpa relation to that as well. That's, yeah. Would not have predicted that.

158
00:15:47,622 --> 00:16:07,170
Kayla: So going back to what were doing, me jumping into the Tulpa community and asking for help, I was entering a generally peaceful, chill, self contained group and straight up just asking if anyone wanted to come on a podcast where I would talk about the group, where the only possible conclusions I could come to were tulpas were a cult or just weird.

159
00:16:07,210 --> 00:16:13,146
Chris: Like, I know. Yeah, that makes it a little tough. Makes it a little tough. Yeah, I thought about that.

160
00:16:13,218 --> 00:16:13,754
Kayla: Yeah.

161
00:16:13,882 --> 00:16:17,266
Chris: The ship is sailed, though. Our podcast is called what it's called.

162
00:16:17,338 --> 00:16:31,382
Kayla: We generally haven't gotten pushback on our podcast name. And I like to think and hope that most folks know that you and I are kind of coming from a bit of a tongue in cheek place. And, like, we know that most things don't conveniently fit into these two kind of insulting boxes.

163
00:16:31,566 --> 00:16:34,886
Chris: Okay. But it's just kind of like, weird is not insulting. In my opinion.

164
00:16:34,918 --> 00:16:36,878
Kayla: Weird can be very insulting. I know.

165
00:16:36,934 --> 00:16:40,638
Chris: In our opinion, weird socially, it's a negative connotation. I know.

166
00:16:40,734 --> 00:16:44,454
Kayla: So you and I don't think weird is insulting, but somebody else might think it's insulting.

167
00:16:44,502 --> 00:16:45,166
Chris: Right?

168
00:16:45,358 --> 00:16:52,376
Kayla: Again, here. I wasn't sure what to expect. And honestly, after I asked, everyone was super duper nice.

169
00:16:52,528 --> 00:16:53,104
Chris: That's awesome.

170
00:16:53,152 --> 00:17:04,816
Kayla: They all wanted to talk. I was honestly blown away by the number of responses I got of people willing to share their experiences with me and in like, really intense detail. And we're talking about it.

171
00:17:04,848 --> 00:17:07,144
Chris: You said it was like you were telling me. It was hard to even.

172
00:17:07,311 --> 00:17:22,878
Kayla: It was hard to get through everything because it was such. Because part of it was that just. That there was a lot. But another part of it was that it was so fascinating that it was difficult to, like, even think about organizing these stories because the stories were just so interesting that I would lose myself in them because I've got high absorption.

173
00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:24,611
Chris: What?

174
00:17:24,795 --> 00:17:31,859
Kayla: Remember we talked last week about how adults that had imaginary friends as children score higher? Absorption tests.

175
00:17:31,979 --> 00:17:33,163
Chris: What's an absorption test?

176
00:17:33,211 --> 00:17:34,955
Kayla: Your ability to get lost in a novel.

177
00:17:35,067 --> 00:17:36,411
Chris: I see. Yeah, I see.

178
00:17:36,475 --> 00:17:43,403
Kayla: That joke was real good. And you know how I know? Cause I had to explain it. I don't even know where I was. Yay.

179
00:17:43,531 --> 00:17:44,595
Chris: Sick. Call back, bro.

180
00:17:44,667 --> 00:18:07,872
Kayla: Yup. So, okay. Yeah, so folks were really willing to talk to me, and I was surprised because this is a really private subject matter. Tulpamanswers I talked to do not share with people in their personal IRL lives the fact that they have a tulpa. And, I mean, they don't share it at all. Like, some people really haven't told any family, haven't told any friends. The only other people that know are other tulipamancers online.

181
00:18:08,016 --> 00:18:08,584
Chris: Interesting.

182
00:18:08,632 --> 00:18:28,274
Kayla: And yet here they were, willing to chat with me and answer my many, many questions about this group. And not only, that's really cool. Yeah. Like, they were kind and they were open minded and they were supportive and helpful. I had tuple manswers pointing me in the right direction on research, sharing articles and other resources with me, and just saying nice shit that they were like.

183
00:18:28,282 --> 00:18:29,098
Chris: That'S a great resource.

184
00:18:29,154 --> 00:18:37,270
Kayla: Yeah. Like, people were even just being like, oh, I'm looking forward to checking out the podcast. Just nice things like that. So this is kind of, if you remember how I opened last week's episode.

185
00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:39,602
Chris: Talked about imaginary friends.

186
00:18:39,666 --> 00:18:44,058
Kayla: Yeah. And I talked about how my topic that I chose had me questioning the premise of the podcast.

187
00:18:44,234 --> 00:18:46,090
Chris: Oh, this. I remember that now.

188
00:18:46,170 --> 00:18:49,314
Kayla: So this is kind of what had me questioning premise of our podcast.

189
00:18:49,362 --> 00:18:51,762
Chris: Like, oh, yeah, but we're gonna do that again.

190
00:18:51,906 --> 00:19:02,650
Kayla: Absolutely. But like, this was my first experience with it. Like, these folks were so kind and so supportive. And it just kind of made me feel like a dick to go, okay, well, either this is a cult or it's weird.

191
00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:08,106
Chris: I mean, we did that with cicada, right? Yeah, but cicada was like, it's either cult or just weird.

192
00:19:08,178 --> 00:19:09,090
Kayla: Okay, but first of all.

193
00:19:09,130 --> 00:19:10,634
Chris: And I was even like, it's a beneficial.

194
00:19:10,682 --> 00:19:26,370
Kayla: That community is maybe a little more toxic in some ways. And also, I don't know if. I don't know. It just didn't. It doesn't feel like the same thing. It's not a private matter. You know what I mean? Necessarily. It's just right.

195
00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:35,630
Chris: These are people's, like, private hobbies almost. Whereas, like, cicada is, like, more of, like, a public hobby also. I don't know.

196
00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:42,710
Kayla: Yeah. Like, with cicada, this one had me going back to, like, some shit just doesn't fit in the binary. And.

197
00:19:43,010 --> 00:19:44,630
Chris: And yet you choose to do.

198
00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:52,058
Kayla: We shouldn't consider ourselves the arbiters that we've decided. Maybe we should have a nicer, less judgy title. But that's.

199
00:19:52,114 --> 00:20:13,434
Chris: No, we're the arbiters. We're the arbiter. Look, okay? People like, the. Our adoring public loves drama, okay? And then when you have to force something into a binary, it's super dramatic. It's like, sports. Like, sports is never fair. There's never a team that, like, fits into a neat, like, greatest at who's the greatest basketball player, who is the greatest.

200
00:20:13,482 --> 00:20:17,026
Kayla: Sports isn't the greatest or worse sport.

201
00:20:17,178 --> 00:20:18,162
Chris: But what I'm trying to say also.

202
00:20:18,186 --> 00:20:20,298
Kayla: We should definitely call sports greatest or worse.

203
00:20:20,394 --> 00:20:38,674
Chris: Sports greatest or worst. That's our new podcast. No, it's not that. I didn't bring that up because it's a binary. I brought that up because it's like, there's fun in debating things that ultimately can't really be answered and may not be relevant. And that's kind of what we're doing.

204
00:20:38,722 --> 00:20:39,546
Kayla: Would you rather.

205
00:20:39,698 --> 00:20:51,146
Chris: Yeah, exactly. Like, it doesn't matter whether we sit here and call something a cult or just weird or whatever. I think as long as we apply enough context that it doesn't feel like we're doing anybody a disservice.

206
00:20:51,218 --> 00:21:08,934
Kayla: Well, either way, the Tulpa Masters were all kind to me, and I apologize in advance to anyone I spoke with who may be offended by our title. Thank you again for chatting with me. Sorry. I think tulpas are weird, but as far as the kindness and support, honestly, I. I just. I kind of get the sense that this is how the community operates.

207
00:21:08,982 --> 00:21:10,534
Chris: As a whole, that's pretty nice.

208
00:21:10,662 --> 00:21:17,030
Kayla: But again, this is Reddit, so I don't want to say that this is some, like, perfect drama free community. It's, like, not toxic at all.

209
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:19,358
Chris: Well, everything has its Internet.

210
00:21:19,414 --> 00:21:28,350
Kayla: The Internet kind of lends itself to that. I don't think the anonymity and general culture on Reddit is really conducive to, like, a totally nice drama free space.

211
00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:29,046
Chris: Right.

212
00:21:29,158 --> 00:21:47,282
Kayla: But from my reading, it is largely a supportive place. Again, these are people who oftentimes don't tell people they know IRL that they have tulpas. Like, even their best friends and their siblings and tulpas are a huge part of their lives. Like, this is literally somebody that they live with. Twenty four seven, and they can't share it with anyone else.

213
00:21:47,386 --> 00:21:48,170
Chris: Oh, that's crazy.

214
00:21:48,210 --> 00:22:02,092
Kayla: And it takes hours and hours of work to get to the point of having a tulpa, and your tulpa lives with you in your head. So these are really big secrets. And I think because of the, like, gravity of that secret, having a tulpa might be a little socially isolating in.

215
00:22:02,116 --> 00:22:07,476
Chris: Some ways, or at least that aspect of you. But that's why it's nice that then they have the community.

216
00:22:07,588 --> 00:22:29,148
Kayla: Right? Like, when you have to keep a major secret, you can end up feeling alienated. So, yeah, I like that the community generally seems like a place where people with secrets can come together and be unguarded and open and, like, that's such a necessary resource for literally everybody in the world. And I'm just glad that tulpamancers have that with each other.

217
00:22:29,244 --> 00:22:39,244
Chris: That's why I'm glad I finally got that white supremacy thing off my chest a few episodes ago. Cause, man, that secret was just weighing me down. The fact that I was into that.

218
00:22:39,252 --> 00:22:47,308
Kayla: Is not a funny joke in 2019. We are not white supremacists on this podcast. It's not a funny joke to joke about.

219
00:22:47,444 --> 00:22:49,484
Chris: Wow, you are really isolating me right now.

220
00:22:49,532 --> 00:22:59,312
Kayla: Good. You should be. But, like, the life after hate people. If you want to come back, there's a space for you at the table.

221
00:22:59,496 --> 00:23:00,200
Chris: I don't know.

222
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:30,690
Kayla: We should stop joking about this. It's not funny. It's not a perfect community, but I've seen a lot of support given and received on that subreddit, like, hosts form online relationships with other hosts. Tulpas form online friendships with other tulpas. Tulpas make friends with other tulas. It's really cool to see, like, I love when I'm, like, browsing a tulpa thread. And, like, somebody posts and then another tulpa goes like, OMG, so excited to see you. And then the person will post again as their tulpa would be like, oh, hey, King Kong, whatever your name is. I don't know, dude.

223
00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:32,682
Chris: People have giant ape tulpas.

224
00:23:32,826 --> 00:23:52,900
Kayla: Probably sick. And again, like, whereas that anonymity kind of maybe makes for some toxicity in Reddit in general, in particular, tulpas can. It allows tulpa manswers to share as much about their tulpas as they want without fear of judgment or shame because they get to be anonymous. And, like, some tulpas even have a following.

225
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,064
Chris: Whoa.

226
00:23:54,112 --> 00:23:56,248
Kayla: Like an Internet following. We mentioned, are there tulpas that have.

227
00:23:56,264 --> 00:23:58,140
Chris: Like, their own twitters and stuff?

228
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,512
Kayla: I don't know about that, potentially.

229
00:24:02,576 --> 00:24:03,672
Chris: Just when you said following, it made.

230
00:24:03,696 --> 00:24:09,680
Kayla: Me like, oh, well, there's this. Okay, do you remember we mentioned in, we talked about the vice article about tulpas in the previous episode?

231
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:10,008
Chris: Yeah.

232
00:24:10,064 --> 00:24:15,224
Kayla: And there was that one tulpa named Suksi who was like, oh, yeah, we totally bang in the Wonderland.

233
00:24:15,352 --> 00:24:16,072
Chris: Right, right.

234
00:24:16,136 --> 00:24:20,284
Kayla: She's amazing. She has a following. People draw, like, fan art of her.

235
00:24:20,412 --> 00:24:25,988
Chris: I feel like I've, like, seen that name or something. Maybe I've seen somebody on World of Warcraft that, like, had that name, probably.

236
00:24:26,084 --> 00:24:29,788
Kayla: Yeah. Like, there's a whole tumblr. It's like, for asksooksie.

237
00:24:29,844 --> 00:24:31,092
Chris: And is that how you pronounce it?

238
00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:39,404
Kayla: S I o u x s I E. I think I said Susie in the previous episode and then doing more research. I think it's pronounced Suksi.

239
00:24:39,532 --> 00:24:40,340
Chris: Interesting.

240
00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:50,510
Kayla: I think. So, like, yeah, this Tulpa herself is the one getting interviewed by gonzo journalists from Vice. And, like, has a Tumblr and has fan art.

241
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:51,310
Chris: What the fuck?

242
00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:59,450
Kayla: And, like, she's probably not the only one. Like, I didn't spend much time on Tumblr for this one, but there is a fairly large tulpa and Tulpamancer presence there as well.

243
00:25:00,710 --> 00:25:06,278
Chris: Does Sucsy's host get any fame or attention at all? Or is it just like, who cares?

244
00:25:06,334 --> 00:25:19,910
Kayla: From what I remember from the article, the host preferred to remain fairly anonymous. And holy crap, they run the social media that's related to Succi. Like, they have Sucis host has a Reddit.

245
00:25:20,330 --> 00:25:20,866
Chris: Oh, my God.

246
00:25:20,898 --> 00:25:33,298
Kayla: And it has a Reddit handle. And they're very, this is incredible. They're like a very frequent poster in the Tulpas community and they run the ask Zuc Tumblr. Like, yeah, how do I follow this person.

247
00:25:33,354 --> 00:25:37,014
Chris: Can you help me follow, can you help me become a fan person of this later?

248
00:25:37,102 --> 00:26:05,778
Kayla: Yeah, we'll do it later. So in addition to all this, Discord is actually also a large part of the tele community. You might remember we talked about Discord with the 3301 episode as well. It's just basically a voice chat server. It's like, it's basically a forum, but instead of typing, you talk. You always get to talk to each other. A lot of tulpamancers and it's really interesting to me. A lot of tulpamancers have or participate in various discord servers dedicated to all things tulpa.

249
00:26:05,874 --> 00:26:06,522
Chris: Interesting.

250
00:26:06,626 --> 00:26:25,070
Kayla: There's not just like one Tulpa Discord server. Like, there's a bunch. Like, some channels are more private, like, just for, like, friends. Some are for newbies, some are for, like, older tulpas. But like, during my research, I kept coming back to discord over and over and again. That makes me really happy that folks in this community have the means to communicate with each other in this way.

251
00:26:25,650 --> 00:26:27,710
Chris: What is the oldest tulpa?

252
00:26:28,180 --> 00:26:31,020
Kayla: I can tell you.

253
00:26:31,140 --> 00:26:32,360
Chris: Oh my God. Really?

254
00:26:32,940 --> 00:26:42,680
Kayla: How old is your oldest tulpa? Don't ask me about where I have this information from. How. Don't ask me yet about where I have this information from. I think at least one person said 88.

255
00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:46,108
Chris: Wait, why can't I ask you where that information's from?

256
00:26:46,124 --> 00:26:47,060
Kayla: Cause we're gonna talk about it later.

257
00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:50,540
Chris: Oh my God. Okay.

258
00:26:50,620 --> 00:27:10,488
Kayla: Yeah. So we'll learn more about the community and its nice aspects and some of its not so nice aspects when I get into my conversations later on. Right now, however, let's talk about the not so nice aspects of the community. Some maybe cult like stuff. But again, we're saving the, like, real cult like stuff for the end, just again, for dramatic purposes.

259
00:27:10,624 --> 00:27:11,304
Chris: Right.

260
00:27:11,472 --> 00:27:28,818
Kayla: We mentioned last week that many tulpamancers do experience mental illness, which often drives them to the community and to tulpomancy as a whole. But while this maybe seems like a red flag at first, the mental illnesses experienced by tulpamancers are fairly common. Depression and anxiety seemed to be the big ease when I was doing my initial research.

261
00:27:28,954 --> 00:27:31,270
Chris: Yeah, well, I mean, those are just endemic in the population.

262
00:27:32,330 --> 00:27:35,630
Kayla: Not to minimize it, but like, we all have that.

263
00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:38,898
Chris: It's not minimizing not everyone, but it's.

264
00:27:38,914 --> 00:28:01,070
Kayla: A high incidence, very common. We mentioned last week that having tulpas has actually helped many tulpa mantis with their illnesses. So, you know, not necessarily a bad thing. But I do want to highlight this as one of the ways tulpamancers may find the community and how that plays into a bigger picture. Another example of, quote unquote, finding the community carries on the traditions of western occultism.

265
00:28:01,190 --> 00:28:04,238
Chris: Wait, another example. Wait, I'm confused.

266
00:28:04,334 --> 00:28:09,686
Kayla: So one way that people find the community is because they're dealing with mental illness and looking for ways to like, fix it.

267
00:28:09,718 --> 00:28:10,334
Chris: Okay.

268
00:28:10,462 --> 00:28:17,376
Kayla: And then another example of another way people find, quote unquote, the community carries on the traditions of western occultism in some ways.

269
00:28:17,448 --> 00:28:26,720
Chris: Got it. So some people find it via like mental illness, and then they kind of get into it that way. And then some people find their way into it via western occultism.

270
00:28:26,840 --> 00:29:03,720
Kayla: And that was by and large, the more like common answer I personally received. A lot of hosts I talked to explained to me that they discovered the concept of tulpomancy while exploring other esoteric or supernatural topics. Again, not necessarily a red flag, but maybe this highlights a possibility of tulpamancers potentially possessing some motivated reasoning when it comes to tulpas. Like if you're already kind of believing in magic, right? Does that, what does that say about the quote unquote, legitimacy of Tulpa Mancy? I'm a firm believer at this point, but just, you know, we got a skeptic ran going on here, so.

271
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:23,352
Chris: No, no, I think you're right. I think if, yeah, if it's, if you're a type of person that is into, you know, thinks that Ouija boards are real and vortexes are real and all that stuff, then you're gonna be more, I think, prone to believing other things that are not necessarily grounded in empirical science.

272
00:29:23,416 --> 00:29:33,868
Kayla: Like, I guess the real question is, like, if you've already bought into the occult, is tulpomancy just kind of a stop on the way down a dangerous rabbit hole? I'm not sure. Probably isn't, but just something to think about.

273
00:29:33,984 --> 00:29:34,684
Chris: Mm.

274
00:29:34,812 --> 00:29:35,908
Kayla: When I asked, well, didn't you say.

275
00:29:35,924 --> 00:29:44,068
Chris: There was a, sorry. Didn't you say there was a subreddit called tulpas for skeptics? Because were just talking about like being skeptical.

276
00:29:44,164 --> 00:29:44,660
Kayla: Right.

277
00:29:44,780 --> 00:29:59,354
Chris: And you're saying that some tulpamancers maybe get into it via western occultism. Right, right. And therefore maybe have this sort of like believer sort of mentality about it.

278
00:29:59,452 --> 00:30:00,046
Kayla: Right.

279
00:30:00,198 --> 00:30:04,450
Chris: But you said there was also this big part of the community that were skeptical.

280
00:30:04,910 --> 00:30:08,886
Kayla: I don't know if I would say that tulpas for skeptics is a big part of the community.

281
00:30:09,038 --> 00:30:09,662
Chris: Okay.

282
00:30:09,766 --> 00:30:54,454
Kayla: I say it's a smaller part of the community, but it's its own kind of separate thing. And it's an interesting combination of people who kind of like wish the phenomenon of tulpa and tulpamancy is real, but I are maybe not quite convinced or like, have tried to create a tulpa or develop a tulpa and like, haven't been successful. It's a really interesting little place, but yeah, so there is some skepticism within the community itself, but again, that's not the case for everyone. And so when I think skepticism in general isn't present, that's when you have the potential for like dealing with something like psychologically dangerous in that way.

283
00:30:54,542 --> 00:30:55,150
Chris: Right.

284
00:30:55,310 --> 00:31:00,646
Kayla: Not that I think tulumansity is dangerous, but gotta have both sides of that argument, right?

285
00:31:00,678 --> 00:31:06,358
Chris: No, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I just brought up the skeptics. Tuples for skeptics is a possible counterpoint.

286
00:31:06,494 --> 00:31:14,582
Kayla: When I asked some tulbam answers how they found the community, I got some of the below answers, following answers. You're not reading this, you're listening.

287
00:31:14,726 --> 00:31:17,970
Chris: It's below. And the flow of the podcast.

288
00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:23,562
Kayla: I actually found out about Tulpe through researching a lot of weird tulpe. It's a different way.

289
00:31:23,626 --> 00:31:27,082
Chris: Is that tulpa, plural of tulpas for this.

290
00:31:27,106 --> 00:31:27,858
Kayla: For this person?

291
00:31:27,994 --> 00:31:28,626
Chris: Excellent.

292
00:31:28,698 --> 00:32:09,076
Kayla: I actually found out about Tulpe through researching a lot of weird esoteric things online. I questioned just about everything reality throws at me and come up with wild theories, and I was trying to figure out if there really was a spirit world. I learned about something called astral projection and decided to research the history of all that, which led me to research theosophist societies and in turn, Tulpe. Another person said, I first learned about tulpas on YouTube in a top ten scary ritual video. It talked about tulpas. So I did more research about them and then found R. Tulpas on a link in the YouTube comments. On a Tulpa video, another person said, I was initially linked to the r tulpas discord on R Tumblr in action as a sort of example of a crazy person cult.

293
00:32:09,228 --> 00:32:29,694
Kayla: The idea intrigued me though, and I ended up digging deeper and deeper until I joined Tulpa Chat, the, at the time official R. Tulpas discord server. So this person, well, they found it through somebody being like, this is a crazy cult. Another person said, I love learning about cryptids and other things that go bump in the night. So one day I decided to binge as many of these videos as I could.

294
00:32:29,862 --> 00:32:34,774
Chris: And cryptids are things like jackalopes and Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot. Okay.

295
00:32:34,902 --> 00:32:40,918
Kayla: I first learned about tulpas when I was watching a scare video titled the Tulpa phenomenon. I found r. How is it a scare video?

296
00:32:41,014 --> 00:32:42,678
Chris: This doesn't, you haven't presented anything.

297
00:32:42,734 --> 00:32:44,690
Kayla: There's a lot of creepypastas about tulpas.

298
00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:46,652
Chris: What's creepypasta?

299
00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:48,148
Kayla: Scary stories on the Internet.

300
00:32:48,244 --> 00:32:48,636
Chris: Got it.

301
00:32:48,668 --> 00:32:54,820
Kayla: There's a lot of, like, it's very ripe for that in very interesting ways.

302
00:32:54,940 --> 00:33:07,044
Chris: Okay. Okay. I guess I can see that because it's like, actually, we even talked about that a little bit, that last episode where it's like, oh, my imaginary friend says, blah, blah, mommy, and it's like that.

303
00:33:07,092 --> 00:33:20,056
Kayla: And then there's also the devil or whatever. There's also, like, I think a big part of it is, what if you create a tulpa that's, like, secretly bad? Or what if you create a tulpa and you switch with the tulpa and then the tulpa never lets you switch back? Like that kind of thing?

304
00:33:20,088 --> 00:33:21,600
Chris: Oh, shit. That is scary.

305
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:29,312
Kayla: Yeah. So that's a scare video. I found r tulpas from some supernatural Reddit. I want to say r witchcraft.

306
00:33:29,416 --> 00:33:30,872
Chris: So it's a subreddit for witchcraft.

307
00:33:30,976 --> 00:33:37,136
Kayla: Okay. I was looking for some hypnosis files a few years ago and saw that there were some that were supposed to create a tulpa and a guided meditation.

308
00:33:37,168 --> 00:33:39,898
Chris: Oh, my God. Really? I listened to a lot of hypnosis.

309
00:33:39,984 --> 00:33:55,158
Kayla: Well, there you go. So you can see there's a little bit of a trend here with how some people come to tulpomancy. Right? Like kind of, yeah, we talked about scare videos. We talked about cryptid videos. We talked about other, like, cult reddits and witchcraft reddits. It's all kind of this.

310
00:33:55,174 --> 00:33:58,038
Chris: Like, supernatural creepy ish.

311
00:33:58,214 --> 00:34:26,320
Kayla: Yeah. Depending on your perspective, that can either be a neutral thing or it can be a bad thing. For me, it feels pretty neutral. People researching something interesting that, you know, maybe brush on the side of pseudoscience or whatever, but then they discover something important for themselves. For a more skeptical person, they might again view this as bit of a downward spiral into uncomfortable pseudo science territory. I'll let our listeners decide how they feel about it. How do you feel about it?

312
00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:51,541
Chris: As a listener of my own podcast, I feel. Well, I don't know. Like, clearly, like, a lot of the stuff they're talking about, at least several of those things aren't really, like, scientific. But, like, I also, I don't know, like, we watch cryptid videos. I don't know if they're watching them because they find the topic fun and interesting or if they're watching them because, like, they think they're actually gonna go out and find Bigfoot.

313
00:34:51,605 --> 00:34:52,208
Kayla: Right.

314
00:34:52,589 --> 00:34:57,773
Chris: So without having that context of, like, why they're consuming this content that you're talking about.

315
00:34:57,821 --> 00:34:58,329
Kayla: Right.

316
00:34:58,469 --> 00:35:10,146
Chris: It's hard for me to say whether I feel like that's bad. That's not a great word. It's hard for me to say whether I feel like that's a check mark.

317
00:35:10,178 --> 00:35:11,410
Kayla: In the cult column.

318
00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:16,474
Chris: Yeah, a check mark in the old cult column. You know, irrational, whatever.

319
00:35:16,562 --> 00:35:17,190
Kayla: Right.

320
00:35:18,570 --> 00:35:25,746
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It's tough for me to say, like, I think it could be, but it also could just be like, I'm consuming this content and then. Oh, that led me to this other thing.

321
00:35:25,778 --> 00:35:33,274
Kayla: Right. Well, I want to read you one more story because this actually comes from a person who helps run r. Tulpas for skeptics.

322
00:35:33,362 --> 00:35:33,730
Chris: Okay.

323
00:35:33,770 --> 00:36:16,282
Kayla: Which we mentioned last week, and we mentioned just a few minutes ago, R. Tulpasforskeptics, in case you were a little lost, describes itself like this, a subreddit about tulpas. For those who are skeptical but nonetheless intrigued or concerned, post your thoughts. Worries. Yeah, post your thoughts or worries or attempts to create one if you're willing to make an experiment of that. But remember, no one owes you their belief or agreement. So when I asked about how this Reddit user found out about tulpas, their Reddit username is Chenaile Fior, and they said, I found out about tulpas on a lucid dreaming forum back in 2014. Dreamviews used to have a sub forum dedicated to them. My reaction was a mixture of a few things. My first thought was this had to be an elaborate joke. Its way too good to be true.

324
00:36:16,386 --> 00:36:33,868
Kayla: You can really create an imaginary friend that will react on its own. It's possible to trick your mind into actually seeing and hearing a dragon all day. That's too awesome to exist. Life isn't that cool. And of course, there was also a lot of discomfort about the idea of adults parading around their imaginary friends. So that's just a little bit of another perspective on it.

325
00:36:33,924 --> 00:36:38,172
Chris: Okay, so that was the tulpas. You said that was the tulpas for skeptics person.

326
00:36:38,236 --> 00:36:38,484
Kayla: Yes.

327
00:36:38,532 --> 00:36:39,068
Chris: With that story.

328
00:36:39,124 --> 00:36:39,596
Kayla: Yes.

329
00:36:39,708 --> 00:37:06,518
Chris: Yeah. So I guess I hadn't, I don't know if I had thought about it the way that they describe, because that does sound rad? Like, if I could, like, walk around with my own Pete's dragon and, like, as far as my brain is concerned, there's a real Pete's dragon just walking behind me and, like, having a conversation with me. And, like, that's. I've hallucinated that, so I really feel like I see that. That'd be sick as hell.

330
00:37:06,614 --> 00:37:13,126
Kayla: That is so interesting to me because, like, I do not find it cool at all.

331
00:37:13,238 --> 00:37:14,158
Chris: What? Really?

332
00:37:14,294 --> 00:37:26,726
Kayla: I. Sure it's cool to see a dragon, but, like, the. You have somebody with you all of the time that I'm out. I understand why that's attractive to a lot of.

333
00:37:26,758 --> 00:37:32,606
Chris: Is that how it works for every single one of these supplements? Or is it like, can you dismiss them? Like, you can dismiss your. Wow. Pet.

334
00:37:32,758 --> 00:37:33,450
Kayla: Really?

335
00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:35,246
Chris: I don't. Are you sure?

336
00:37:35,318 --> 00:37:43,720
Kayla: Yeah. We can talk about it a little bit more later because I don't want to, like, spoil some stuff that we're talking about in the future, but, like, not really. Like, they can. They can go.

337
00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:45,892
Chris: Okay, I went back to a little bit weird.

338
00:37:45,916 --> 00:38:20,774
Kayla: They can go inactive or non active where, like, you're, you know, they're kind of just, like, maybe go to sleep and you're not worried about that, but just even. It just. It sounds like so much work, and it makes me tired to think about. And also, like, even though I consider myself a very lonely person, like everybody else in the fucking world, I love to be alone for long periods of time. And so I don't. I personally don't see. I don't. I'm not attracted to it. I don't see the appeal. I understand the appeal for other people, but for me, I have no desire.

339
00:38:20,862 --> 00:38:24,590
Chris: Do you feel like when we hang out, it's alone time for you or. No.

340
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:26,886
Kayla: Hanging out with you is the closest I get to alone time.

341
00:38:26,958 --> 00:38:34,470
Chris: So maybe that would be similar with a tulpa. Like, if it was your tulpa, you might feel like it's alone time.

342
00:38:34,930 --> 00:38:35,354
Kayla: Yeah.

343
00:38:35,402 --> 00:38:36,130
Chris: Even if it's with them.

344
00:38:36,170 --> 00:38:36,910
Kayla: You're right.

345
00:38:37,330 --> 00:38:39,298
Chris: I don't know. I'm just speculating. I don't have one.

346
00:38:39,394 --> 00:38:39,818
Kayla: It just.

347
00:38:39,874 --> 00:38:47,674
Chris: Yeah, I see what you're saying about, like, the constant nature of it. I guess in my. In my mind, I was totally thinking of it like a wow pat that you could just, like, summon and dismiss.

348
00:38:47,762 --> 00:38:48,390
Kayla: No.

349
00:38:50,810 --> 00:38:54,682
Chris: But it still would be pretty cool to have a dragon following you around.

350
00:38:54,826 --> 00:38:57,482
Kayla: Yeah, no, it would. We'll talk more about dragons later.

351
00:38:57,586 --> 00:39:00,204
Chris: Okay. It could be, like, a sexy dragon.

352
00:39:00,252 --> 00:39:05,124
Kayla: It can be whatever. Well, actually. What.

353
00:39:05,292 --> 00:39:06,580
Chris: How did that. What?

354
00:39:06,740 --> 00:39:08,840
Kayla: No, we'll get to that.

355
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:13,348
Chris: There's no way that I just referenced something that's later in this episode.

356
00:39:13,364 --> 00:39:14,440
Kayla: Yes, you just did.

357
00:39:15,020 --> 00:39:16,660
Chris: I don't even think I should have said that.

358
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:18,004
Kayla: Yeah, you shouldn't have, but that's okay.

359
00:39:18,052 --> 00:39:18,436
Chris: Oh my God.

360
00:39:18,468 --> 00:39:19,508
Kayla: Now we can talk about it later.

361
00:39:19,604 --> 00:39:19,980
Chris: Great.

362
00:39:20,060 --> 00:40:00,780
Kayla: So in the meantime, let's go back to what another Reddit user. This is Reddit user graps 224 said about their tulpa discovery. This is the person who said, I was initially linked to the r tulpas discord in r Tumblr in action as a sort of example of a crazy person cult. So I know we talked about Tumblr in action earlier, but I really just want to tell you guys what Tumblr in action is about. So we're talking about it now. Tumblr in action is a subreddit. That's the name of the subreddit. And it's where people post screengrabs of particularly egregious posts and memes on Tumblr, which is another social media site that, again, allows for some level of anonymity, but it's less about sharing in forums and more about blogging.

363
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:08,916
Kayla: So, like, sharing your experience, like either sharing like, pictures you've taken or art you've drawn or things like that you like. It's a more visual.

364
00:40:08,948 --> 00:40:10,604
Chris: And don't you, like, follow people the.

365
00:40:10,612 --> 00:40:28,240
Kayla: Way you do on Twitter? Yeah, you follow people like you do on Twitter, but again, it's less about following, like, celebrities and things like that and more about just following other people that are generally in your community that you find interesting or shared interests and stuff. Yeah, the same shows you watch or the same, like, spiritual beliefs you have or social beliefs you have.

366
00:40:28,660 --> 00:40:43,612
Chris: Just in case there's some really non Internet savvy users as a part of our listenership. And you're not super familiar with Twitter. Even Twitter, you can just follow people and then, like, the newsfeed is very, like, very much like Facebook.

367
00:40:43,716 --> 00:40:43,956
Kayla: Right.

368
00:40:43,988 --> 00:40:49,148
Chris: It's just that you see stuff in your feed, but it's only from the shorter Facebook, only from the people you follow.

369
00:40:49,204 --> 00:40:49,762
Kayla: Right.

370
00:40:49,916 --> 00:41:03,702
Chris: And then Tumblr is like that, except instead of being, like, celebrity oriented, it's more just like, I'm gonna follow these people that are into my interests. I'm gonna follow this guy that posts the gathering art or whatever.

371
00:41:03,806 --> 00:41:14,198
Kayla: Tumblr also has a bit of reputation as being very like, rah, social justice. And like, that's kind of what Tumblr in action is about, like, it generally posts.

372
00:41:14,254 --> 00:41:15,486
Chris: That's where you joined that cult.

373
00:41:15,558 --> 00:41:19,940
Kayla: Yeah, exactly. It's fuck you. I was a social justice warrior from day fucking one.

374
00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:22,580
Chris: You were like a social justice squire bitch.

375
00:41:22,660 --> 00:41:31,320
Kayla: I was on a protest line when I was in first fucking grade. Suck my dick. Picketed with the teachers that were striking at my school.

376
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:34,612
Chris: I mean, there's nothing shameful about being a squire.

377
00:41:34,756 --> 00:41:44,766
Kayla: I was not a squire. I was birthed a knight. And now I have grown into a kingdom. That's how it works, right? You become a knight, then you become a king eventually.

378
00:41:44,838 --> 00:41:46,430
Chris: Right, exactly. You just have to pay your dues.

379
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:56,174
Kayla: Yeah, it's capitalism. So, yeah, so Tumblr in action is about Tumblr posts that go way overkill on the social justice, or, like.

380
00:41:56,262 --> 00:41:57,198
Chris: And it's, like, cringey.

381
00:41:57,254 --> 00:42:08,890
Kayla: So it's generally posts that go way overkill on the social justice or in get to be cringey. Or it's posts that try so hard to be woke, they end up being offensive, that kind of thing.

382
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:27,248
Chris: Okay, so, and this is just to recap, we're on Reddit, so Reddit's its own forum, and then on Reddit, we're posting cringeworthy screen caps, screenshots from Tumblr. Tumblr is its own blog community, okay?

383
00:42:27,304 --> 00:43:01,962
Kayla: Like, a Tumblr in action post might be like, a white person getting mad at somebody's, like, Twitter photo of some other white person using chopsticks. Because, like, saying that's cultural appropriation. That's, like, a very bad example of maybe a Tumblr in action post. Okay, r Tumblr in action is not really my favorite place on Reddit because while they often highlight foolish people, I generally find it kind of mean spirited. But that's just me, not an objective claim. Anyway, graps 224 found out about tulpas in r tulpas here because Tumblr in action was comparing it to a cult.

384
00:43:02,156 --> 00:43:03,302
Chris: Okay, strike one.

385
00:43:03,406 --> 00:43:04,610
Kayla: Is that strike one?

386
00:43:05,350 --> 00:43:09,294
Chris: This person found out about them from Tumblr in action.

387
00:43:09,422 --> 00:43:13,054
Kayla: Right. Because they were being like, ooh, tulpas are a cult on Tumblr.

388
00:43:13,102 --> 00:43:21,210
Chris: Got it. No. I don't know. Like, yeah, they use the word, but you didn't make them sound like the most.

389
00:43:21,590 --> 00:43:28,406
Kayla: I know, but that's, like, my bias. I used to go on Tumblr a lot. I haven't been on Tumblr in ages.

390
00:43:28,558 --> 00:43:30,158
Chris: Yeah. Ever since they took the porn.

391
00:43:30,254 --> 00:43:30,806
Kayla: Didn't help.

392
00:43:30,878 --> 00:43:36,734
Chris: I know. Yeah. I don't know if I'd call it a strike. Maybe huh.

393
00:43:36,862 --> 00:43:37,770
Kayla: Interesting.

394
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:40,250
Chris: Yeah, maybe.

395
00:43:41,390 --> 00:44:00,062
Kayla: Maybe a t. So either way, whatever we feel about this, graps 224 clearly is a bit of a skeptic when it comes to tulpas. But after doing their own research and learning more and hanging out in our slush tulpas, they decided to give it a try. And graps created his own tulpa, named Vera.

396
00:44:00,206 --> 00:44:01,050
Chris: Okay.

397
00:44:01,350 --> 00:44:06,142
Kayla: I initially made Vera out of mockery and curiosity. Mockery? Yeah.

398
00:44:06,286 --> 00:44:06,990
Chris: Okay.

399
00:44:07,070 --> 00:44:31,210
Kayla: I didn't believe it would work, nor that it would be a permanent thing. Suffice to say that a year and a half later, I didn't believe that for long. If I'm honest with forethought, I believe I was deluding myself for at least the first couple of months. Vera doesn't remember a lot of stuff from around that time. There isn't a whole lot she says was actually her. In my personal belief. I think part of creating a tulpa is being able to delude yourself. Until you manage to make that delusion a reality, the community is.

400
00:44:31,290 --> 00:44:32,386
Chris: That's very honest.

401
00:44:32,538 --> 00:44:34,710
Kayla: The community is generally pretty terrible.

402
00:44:35,050 --> 00:44:36,154
Chris: Oh, really?

403
00:44:36,322 --> 00:45:07,730
Kayla: Tulpa Mancy has had a very bad history, jumping from four chan to forums to finally Reddit and discord being their main communal hubs. As I mentioned, due to the nature of the beast, a lot of people with closed minds will completely disregard it. And since it's not for everyone, there's a large number of people who won't even get into Tulpa Mansi after hearing about it. Tulpa Mansi lends itself excellently to people with dreams of escapism, fantasticals, and people with incredibly overactive imaginations. There's many tulpa communities out there where being the weirdest one in the room is a badge of honor. The number of people obsessed with.

404
00:45:07,770 --> 00:45:09,330
Chris: Oh, he's the w word.

405
00:45:09,490 --> 00:45:33,030
Kayla: Yeah. The number of people obsessed with furries and my little pony is absurd. Tulpas already have a terrible image since they are so commonly associated with schizophrenics, the mentally unwell, and so on, to be associated with furries and brownies as well. Two of the most hated communities online. I try to keep my distance. I'm not a terribly large fan of being weird for the sake of being weird. So that's graps interpretation of the community.

406
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:47,286
Chris: That is a really interesting, like, it feels like he's just got, like, a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there where, like, part of it's like, oh, this is weird, and they're weirdos. But then part of, it's like I'm doing it myself, and I don't want to be weird.

407
00:45:47,318 --> 00:45:48,582
Kayla: I think it's actually, it is weird.

408
00:45:48,606 --> 00:45:49,462
Chris: But I don't want to be weird.

409
00:45:49,526 --> 00:45:59,370
Kayla: Right. I think. I think it makes sense that sometimes the community around something that you like isn't a community that you like.

410
00:46:00,030 --> 00:46:02,686
Chris: Oh, actually, hey, speaking of the gathering.

411
00:46:02,798 --> 00:46:03,894
Kayla: Is that of a shitty community?

412
00:46:03,982 --> 00:46:32,650
Chris: No, no, not really. I mean, I can't really say anymore since the last time I played, like, a lot was probably a good, like, 1015 years ago, which is insane. But, I mean, I do remember, you know, I used to play with my friends a lot, and then we would. So we'd play, like, at home, right? And that's like, oh, we're just normal friends playing, but then we would also go to the comic book store, and there would be some normal friends playing there. And then there would also be, like, there'd be some people there that were.

413
00:46:32,690 --> 00:46:33,730
Kayla: People that you don't necessarily want to be friends.

414
00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:49,348
Chris: Kind of weird. Yeah. And then sometimes we would go even to, like, you know, like a big tournament thing, right. And there would be people there who would be like, oh, man. Like, I'm a nerd, but, like, dude, like, oh, and all the smell. There was such a bad smell at those places. Like, the bo was just.

415
00:46:49,444 --> 00:46:52,860
Kayla: I mean, that's also the nature of, like, a convention beast.

416
00:46:53,020 --> 00:47:03,910
Chris: It is. But as someone who's been multiple times to Comic Con, it's different. Which is also nerds, right? Not even close. Not even remotely close. Well, but I'm part of the community.

417
00:47:03,990 --> 00:47:15,886
Kayla: So I get that. For me, it's similar with, like, tumblr. Like, yes, I'm an SJW and yes, blah, blah. But, like, I don't like to necessarily identify myself as, like, a tumblr person in public because of.

418
00:47:16,038 --> 00:47:17,838
Chris: Right, because of the associations and.

419
00:47:17,894 --> 00:47:37,530
Kayla: Yeah, because of aspects of the community that I'm not particularly into. Or again, like, different shows, like Rick and Morty. Not a huge fan of some aspects of that fandom. Or, like, yeah, there's other shows. Yeah, show is great. Love the show. Fandom less so even, like, breaking bad, like, some of the fandom for breaking Bad is, like, kind of gross and toxic.

420
00:47:37,650 --> 00:47:46,850
Chris: Oh, man. So now. Now we're kind of, like, back into the. Our fandoms cults and then that. That maybe this maybe tulpa community is a cult. I don't know.

421
00:47:46,890 --> 00:47:47,546
Kayla: Maybe.

422
00:47:47,698 --> 00:48:13,216
Chris: I mean, the only thing about it, though, is that there's also, like, a little bit of, like, elitism. And that sort of, like, well, I like this community. Like, I like magic the gathering. But then I'm gonna go to these tournaments and, like, make fun of these other nerds who are probably also doing the same thing with me and my friends who just think we're better. I don't know. Like, I can. I totally get the. I'm a part of a community, and I'm not sure about the fandom.

423
00:48:13,288 --> 00:48:13,832
Kayla: Right.

424
00:48:13,976 --> 00:48:15,440
Chris: I just. I like the product.

425
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:16,300
Kayla: Right.

426
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,298
Chris: But I just. I always felt, like, a little bit like that with the whole magic thing. I don't know if that applies here.

427
00:48:22,384 --> 00:48:39,126
Kayla: Well, no, I think it does. And, like, I'm not gonna say that I necessarily agree with this interpretation. Like, I don't. I don't know if I agree with the idea that, like, folks are out on r topas trying to out weird each other. That's not really something that I've seen. I've also spent a lot less time in the community.

428
00:48:39,238 --> 00:48:39,654
Chris: Right.

429
00:48:39,742 --> 00:48:58,414
Kayla: Than this person that I'm talking to. And if that is the case, like, that's definitely a bit of a negative when it comes to the community. Like, if this community is a bunch of people, like, kind of small spiraling down into, like, weirdness for weirdness sake, that's probably not great. But I don't know if that's the case. That could just be some people, I.

430
00:48:58,422 --> 00:49:13,978
Chris: Don'T know, a stepping stone into teal tribe. Like, I'm gonna weird. I'm gonna make a tulpa, right? Oh, yeah. Well, I'm gonna astral project. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm gonna go join Teal tribe. And I almost made a kill suicide.

431
00:49:14,174 --> 00:49:22,670
Kayla: Don't like that joke. I'm gonna join Teal tribe, and then I'm gonna do to myself what Jeffrey epstein did to himself, and it all comes back around.

432
00:49:25,530 --> 00:49:26,778
Chris: That's the ultimate weird.

433
00:49:26,834 --> 00:49:27,378
Kayla: Yeah.

434
00:49:27,514 --> 00:49:30,150
Chris: Oh, man, we're bad people.

435
00:49:30,810 --> 00:49:54,682
Kayla: Well, moving on from that, I did also read about another conflict in the community, and that has to do with some tulpamancers believing that there's some gatekeeping going on from other tulbomancers who try to. This kind of goes directly. This is like a rebuttal from somebody almost talking directly to graps 224. Almost interesting. They were not connected conversations, but what this person I'm about to talk about.

436
00:49:54,826 --> 00:49:58,170
Chris: Just the content happened to be interesting.

437
00:49:58,330 --> 00:50:43,344
Kayla: So, okay. I read this conflict has to do with some tulpamancers believing that there's gatekeeping going on from other tulpamancers who try too hard to get the community to be taken seriously. So what? I did spend a little bit of time on Tumblr reading about this one Tumblr user visions of Grey said, quote, I think the Tulpa Mansi community often tries too hard to look serious to outsiders. To be frank, it's like watching children on a playground trying to, quote, act adult. This person. Yeah. And that's the end of the quote. This person went on to explain that the gatekeeping and policing of Tulpamancer behaviors is childish, holds the community back because it's about fear of judgment from outsiders. They refute that argument. They refute the argument that quote, unquote silly telepomancer behavior drives newcomers away by claiming that the community is continuously growing.

438
00:50:43,472 --> 00:50:46,744
Kayla: There's no need for recruitment. So clearly they're not.

439
00:50:46,832 --> 00:50:51,500
Chris: What are some silly things that they're talking about that get gatekept?

440
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:03,980
Kayla: I know that there's. And we can talk about this a little bit more later. There's some judgment about the word choice. Like wonderland maybe is a little silly, or like, tulpomancy is a little bit silly.

441
00:51:04,020 --> 00:51:12,836
Chris: Or like, tulpomancy is a. What's the word I'm looking for? Like a little fantastical. It's a little.

442
00:51:12,948 --> 00:51:20,892
Kayla: Well, then you think about, like, the forms that some of the tulpas can take, like dragons or ponies or furries. Like.

443
00:51:20,996 --> 00:51:21,428
Chris: Right.

444
00:51:21,524 --> 00:52:04,258
Kayla: Some people that are maybe trying too hard to get something to be taken seriously might kind of look down on those forms, which I think is maybe a bummer, right. To not be open to that. But. So, yeah, so there's not really a need to keep recruiting. So the silliness isn't keeping people away. They also say that there doesn't need to be a base level of, quote, scientificness going on in your tulpa mancy. That is, if you want to pretend or believe that your tulpa is metaphysical or you want to ignore the, like, rules of science, go right ahead. Because you're just playing around with your imaginary friend. Like, you don't have to be conducting a science experiment, which I think is true and not true.

445
00:52:04,394 --> 00:52:04,730
Chris: Yeah.

446
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:20,378
Kayla: Like, you and I engage in a lot of, like, fun things out in the world that aren't necessarily, like, scientifically sound or whatever, but it's still fun. And I guess I kind of like when I had a sans for my birthday party, it kind of would have been less fun if we.

447
00:52:20,394 --> 00:52:23,776
Chris: Sat there just trying to, like, pick it apart instead of just having fun with it. Yeah.

448
00:52:23,898 --> 00:52:40,356
Kayla: So. So to me, this kind of shows that there's, like, at least two sides of the community. Users like graps who think, like, we should tone the weirdness down a little bit and stop trying to, like, out weird each other. And then users like visions of grey who say, like, nah, fuck it. Let your freak flag fly. Be as weird as you want. Do your thing.

449
00:52:40,468 --> 00:52:59,686
Chris: And it's interesting because, like, neither of them feel like they're wrong, right? You know, one side it's like, oh, don't gatekeep. And the other side it's like, oh, don't be so weird. But it's like, it's tough for me. Like, neither of them felt like when you were reading their statements, neither of the statements felt like, oh, that's stupid. Like, both of them felt reasonable.

450
00:52:59,758 --> 00:53:10,006
Kayla: Yeah, agreed. Let's get more into my conversations with hosts and tulpas. Maybe that'll help us. But before we do, I want to share some corrections from the last episode.

451
00:53:10,038 --> 00:53:10,782
Chris: Oh.

452
00:53:10,926 --> 00:53:44,048
Kayla: Again, some hosts and their tulpas were kind enough to listen to the episode and even offer some feedback in corrections. Yes, super grateful. The following corrections are courtesy of Gress, the Lexa file, and Autumn host, who also shared their tulpamancy experiences with me. We can get into those later, but first, some corrections. Okay, we said the online teleplomancy community started with bronies. According to autumn host, it actually started in other four chan communities, but only started taking off once it was picked up by the MLP community. So they didn't start it, they just kind of like, picked it up and.

453
00:53:44,104 --> 00:53:45,326
Chris: Threw the lighter fluid on it.

454
00:53:45,448 --> 00:54:15,178
Kayla: Right? Quote, nowadays, at least in the Reddit community, there isn't a big brony presence. I only hear an MLP reference once every two weeks. As I understand it, some bronies lost interest once they realized that they couldn't force their tulpa to have a pony body with a cute pony personality. And that, to me, kind of bummer. Kind of, again, goes, is antithetical to the idea that, like, this community's run amok with, like, furries and brownies. Yeah, it seems like some people experience a lot of brownie stuff and some people don't experience it very much at all.

455
00:54:15,354 --> 00:54:21,842
Chris: You might just. Yeah, the community seems big enough that you might have a totally different experience in it with somebody than somebody else.

456
00:54:21,946 --> 00:54:41,660
Kayla: Another correction. A few times we stated that tulpas aren't real when we meant that they're not physical. Quote, some tulpas and hosts find it very offensive when you say not real. Tulpas are usually referred to as people, so let's just be cognizant of that. Like, we're not. When we say not real, if we do slip up and say not real, we mean not physical.

457
00:54:41,770 --> 00:54:49,376
Chris: Yeah, I think that's what I meant last episode. But I'll try to, like, make my language reflect that more, because I don't think they're not. What?

458
00:54:49,448 --> 00:54:50,976
Kayla: Wait, you don't think that they're not real?

459
00:54:51,008 --> 00:55:02,260
Chris: I don't think that they're not real. I just think that they're not physical. But I. It does seem to me that there is something real going on in the imagination, in the brains of these. These folks. That is real.

460
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:24,120
Kayla: This is less of a correction, more of a piece of interesting information. All from autumn host. Quote. In the episode, you two took offense to the word force. There are some in the community who would agree with you. I forget why the word force was chosen. Forcing doesn't mean forcing the tulpa to do anything. Think of it more as using the force of your mental abilities to create some people something.

461
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:25,472
Chris: It's more like the force.

462
00:55:25,616 --> 00:55:29,696
Kayla: No, it's more. Yeah, I guess in that way. Yeah, maybe it has to do with that. I don't know.

463
00:55:29,728 --> 00:55:30,264
Chris: I don't know.

464
00:55:30,352 --> 00:55:40,256
Kayla: Some people recommend that you say you and your tulpa are forcing and not that you are you forcing your tulpa. So it's more like my tulpa and I were forcing. Not, I was forcing my tulpa.

465
00:55:40,368 --> 00:55:41,048
Chris: Right, right.

466
00:55:41,144 --> 00:56:01,884
Kayla: The later statement sounds too much like slavery. There is a movement in the community to start using different words, and maybe this kind of plays into the silliness thing. We were just talking about mindscape rather than Wonderland because Wonderland sounds too childish, and apparently this is from autumn host. You two even laughed at the word. In fact, after hearing you two giggle about the word, I now agree the word should be abandoned.

467
00:56:01,972 --> 00:56:02,244
Chris: What?

468
00:56:02,292 --> 00:56:03,116
Kayla: No, I know.

469
00:56:03,188 --> 00:56:04,204
Chris: Wonderland. No, I was just.

470
00:56:04,252 --> 00:56:05,108
Kayla: I very much enjoyed it.

471
00:56:05,124 --> 00:56:10,520
Chris: Literally, just when you said Wonderland versus mindscape, literally, I was just kind of like, I don't know what's wrong with Wonderland.

472
00:56:10,980 --> 00:56:18,004
Kayla: We definitely giggled. I went back and listened, and I think it was more of a, like, amazed or, like, impressed or like, oh, that's cool.

473
00:56:18,052 --> 00:56:22,020
Chris: Getting this can be hard to. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean.

474
00:56:22,140 --> 00:56:24,716
Kayla: But I also understand not wanting to use it if you totally personally feel.

475
00:56:24,748 --> 00:56:25,916
Chris: Like trying to think of the right way to.

476
00:56:25,988 --> 00:56:30,946
Kayla: That's too childish. You'd rather use mindscape or I pericosm or whatever. Like, yeah, use that.

477
00:56:30,978 --> 00:56:40,714
Chris: Yeah. First of all, mindscape and pericles are both dope words and mindscape. Certainly. I think in terms of, like, a word that feels like what it means.

478
00:56:40,842 --> 00:56:41,250
Kayla: Right.

479
00:56:41,330 --> 00:56:48,314
Chris: Totally makes sense. But also, like, wonderland. I don't know. Like, it doesn't seem that. It doesn't seem that childish. It just seems like.

480
00:56:48,362 --> 00:56:49,130
Kayla: I like Wonderland.

481
00:56:49,210 --> 00:56:52,338
Chris: Yeah, I kind of like Wonderland. And it's very evocative. It's very, like.

482
00:56:52,474 --> 00:56:53,150
Kayla: Right.

483
00:56:53,770 --> 00:56:55,890
Chris: I guess it's actually similar to mindscape in that way.

484
00:56:55,930 --> 00:56:56,130
Kayla: Right.

485
00:56:56,170 --> 00:57:03,200
Chris: It's like, it makes you think, like, oh, yeah, that's like a place where your imagination can just sort of run wild and make things right.

486
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:07,360
Kayla: The word you can use. If you don't want to use force, you can use develop.

487
00:57:07,700 --> 00:57:09,460
Chris: I like develop instead of force.

488
00:57:09,620 --> 00:57:15,044
Kayla: Some people also don't like the word host because it sounds like the tulpas, a parasite. The word tulpa, man.

489
00:57:15,092 --> 00:57:19,828
Chris: See, I always interpreted it as more of, like, a host and a guest.

490
00:57:19,884 --> 00:57:21,920
Kayla: Host and a guest, rather than like a host and a.

491
00:57:22,300 --> 00:57:24,452
Chris: But I can totally see that. Yeah.

492
00:57:24,636 --> 00:57:32,084
Kayla: Some people don't like the word tulpamancy. They think it's weird. Autumn host likes Tulpamancy. I like Tulpa Mancy, certainly.

493
00:57:32,092 --> 00:57:54,036
Chris: I feel like it's a little. To me, it's a little more weird than Wonderland, but I don't not like it. I think the only reason that it feels a little weird to me is that it feels like it's a. It's very fantasy tropey. Wonderland isn't necessarily fantasy tropey because there's, like, you know, Peter Pan in Wonderland or. No, it's Alice in Wonderland. Whatever Peter Pan had. Where did he go?

494
00:57:54,068 --> 00:57:54,588
Kayla: Neverland.

495
00:57:54,684 --> 00:57:57,044
Chris: Neverland. Different lands.

496
00:57:57,092 --> 00:57:59,364
Kayla: Yeah, two different places at Disney.

497
00:57:59,452 --> 00:58:12,380
Chris: But anyway, so Wonderland has got that sort of, like, weight of, like 100 years of Alice, you know, down the rabbit hole, whereas Mansi feels a little bit like it comes from, you know, like a world of Warcraft or fun.

498
00:58:12,420 --> 00:58:13,812
Kayla: Like necromancy or whatever.

499
00:58:13,876 --> 00:58:18,382
Chris: Yeah, that's a word, right? Necromancy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. Personally, I like it.

500
00:58:18,436 --> 00:58:18,722
Kayla: Right.

501
00:58:18,786 --> 00:58:24,074
Chris: But I can see where that word would be a little more fantastical.

502
00:58:24,242 --> 00:58:31,098
Kayla: Certain people don't like the word tulpa and prefer head mate or thought form or something else. So. So interesting.

503
00:58:31,154 --> 00:58:32,922
Chris: I'm gonna give a thumbs down on head mate.

504
00:58:33,026 --> 00:58:34,634
Kayla: Head mate is used by a lot of people.

505
00:58:34,802 --> 00:58:38,274
Chris: I'm gonna give a thumbs up on thoughtform. Thoughtform sounds dope.

506
00:58:38,402 --> 00:58:42,370
Kayla: A lot of people use head mate, and I've come to accept it. I prefer tulpa.

507
00:58:42,530 --> 00:58:54,304
Chris: Tulpa yeah, tulpa feels. I mean, I guess I've learned enough about tulpas now that it feels normal. I don't know if a person that isn't new to the subject would think that the word tulpa was normal.

508
00:58:54,352 --> 00:58:54,940
Kayla: Right.

509
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:56,608
Chris: I like thoughtform.

510
00:58:56,704 --> 00:58:57,780
Kayla: Thoughtform's cool.

511
00:58:58,400 --> 00:58:59,776
Chris: I don't know that I'd change it from tulpa.

512
00:58:59,808 --> 00:59:30,160
Kayla: No, I like tulpa. Some more corrections. These are from gress, the Lexaphile. Remember how you and I kind of talked about the various what I call stages of Tulpa Mancy? Like forcing to imposition, to switching to. Well, gress pointed out to me that except for, like, forcing or development coming first, the rest of those activities don't come in stages and can happen or be worked on simultaneously. There's no step up or in different wonderland to imposition, to fronting. Right. It can be in different orders and or all at once.

513
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:36,680
Chris: And is it true that you may not even necessarily ever do that? You may just like, yeah. Develop your tulpa, and that's it.

514
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:45,258
Kayla: Some tulpas don't come from a wonderland. Don't have a wonderland. So, yeah, it can just kind of be like, you have your tulpa, and that's it.

515
00:59:45,354 --> 00:59:45,826
Chris: Okay.

516
00:59:45,898 --> 01:00:02,698
Kayla: And we mentioned imposition, which is, like, the process of visualizing your tulpa in the physical world. We said it was purely visual, but Gress told me that there's also auditory imposition and tactile imposition practices. So, like, practicing hearing your tulpa in the real world or, like, feeling, like, making contact with them, like, physical contact.

517
01:00:02,754 --> 01:00:06,476
Chris: So I could, like, hear and feel my Pete's dragon too.

518
01:00:06,548 --> 01:00:07,132
Kayla: Yeah.

519
01:00:07,276 --> 01:00:08,760
Chris: Oh, my God.

520
01:00:09,060 --> 01:00:10,276
Kayla: After a lot of work.

521
01:00:10,468 --> 01:00:14,068
Chris: Oh, I'm too lazy. But it's very tempting.

522
01:00:14,204 --> 01:00:35,632
Kayla: Another interesting caveat is that while forcing development requires the Tulpa mancer to plan for, think about, or suggest form and personality characteristics, there's no guarantee that the Tulpa will form exactly how you want them. Kind of like how earlier autumn host mentioned bronies getting disappointed when they realized they couldn't guarantee their tulpas would be, like, cute little ponies.

523
01:00:35,696 --> 01:00:36,856
Chris: That is so fascinating.

524
01:00:36,888 --> 01:00:38,640
Kayla: The same goes for all tulpas.

525
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:40,380
Chris: Cause, like, why?

526
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:46,992
Kayla: Because the tulpa is a sentient, autonomous being. It's gonna kind of be what it wants to be.

527
01:00:47,096 --> 01:01:06,148
Chris: Oh, man, that's so interesting. That's so, I guess if the autonomy part is, like, a crucial aspect of it, then I guess I can see it being like, you can't have autonomy without also not fully controlling how it becomes.

528
01:01:06,204 --> 01:01:06,800
Kayla: Right.

529
01:01:07,780 --> 01:01:08,956
Chris: Oh, man. That's weird.

530
01:01:09,028 --> 01:01:27,840
Kayla: What gress said was, quote, some Tulpa manswers don't use direct suggestion to their developing tulpas. Some prefer to take the approach of letting the tulpa choose their own personality and form. So you're more just like, talk to it. Talk about, like, doing the narration, that kind of thing, rather than being like, I think you'll have pink hair or whatever.

531
01:01:28,340 --> 01:01:29,060
Chris: Right.

532
01:01:29,220 --> 01:01:57,444
Kayla: And also, tulpas can sometimes just, like, straight up reject the host's suggestions and become the tulpa they want to be. Like, I read examples of, like, somebody trying to create, like, a shy tulpa or an extroverted tulpa, and then the tulpa comes out the opposite. Like, you're like, I want my tulpa to be super extroverted. And they're like, fuck, no, I'm shy. That's what they are. And this, again, is another reason why you shouldn't create a tulpa just to have sex with it. Because even if you try to develop or force a tulpa that wants to be a sex bot, you can't guarantee it. And then it's just all kinds of fucked up.

533
01:01:57,532 --> 01:02:03,732
Chris: I wonder if that answers our sex bot ethical question. Maybe you try to program sufficiently create.

534
01:02:03,796 --> 01:02:06,716
Kayla: Something sufficiently create a sex bot that.

535
01:02:06,868 --> 01:02:09,468
Chris: Has enough autonomy to, like, pass the turing test.

536
01:02:09,524 --> 01:02:10,120
Kayla: Right.

537
01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:16,136
Chris: You won't be able to. Oh, man. That's crazy. Oh, my God. Tulpas just taught me something.

538
01:02:16,208 --> 01:02:16,912
Kayla: Yep.

539
01:02:17,096 --> 01:02:19,576
Chris: Is that really answer to that? Okay, we have to talk about this more later.

540
01:02:19,648 --> 01:02:37,864
Kayla: I don't know. Finally, gress had some insight about switching from gress. I would like to explain. There are some complex mechanisms of fronting depending on the tulpamancer tulpas and what they're used to. So fronting is like, when the tulpa, your front, whoever is in the driver's seat, is fronting.

541
01:02:38,032 --> 01:02:43,436
Chris: Got it. So it's not like, so you and I are fronting right now, and you're bragging. You can't back it up.

542
01:02:43,568 --> 01:02:45,252
Kayla: Fronting is when you're in control of the body.

543
01:02:45,356 --> 01:02:46,804
Chris: Right. So I'm fronting myself.

544
01:02:46,892 --> 01:02:47,348
Kayla: Yes.

545
01:02:47,444 --> 01:02:51,532
Chris: If I had a tulpa, right? And he were in control, he or she or it.

546
01:02:51,596 --> 01:02:52,156
Kayla: Right.

547
01:02:52,308 --> 01:02:53,228
Chris: Then that would.

548
01:02:53,284 --> 01:02:54,148
Kayla: Then they would be fronting.

549
01:02:54,244 --> 01:02:54,868
Chris: Okay.

550
01:02:55,004 --> 01:03:03,292
Kayla: For example, spontaneous fronting can occur, which is a tulpa being brought to the front without necessarily their intention or the consent of the current fronter.

551
01:03:03,396 --> 01:03:05,228
Chris: All right, that's a little freaky.

552
01:03:05,364 --> 01:03:49,490
Kayla: You can see that freaks me out. You can see this often in relation to certain stimuli that are either liked or disliked by a previously non conscious member, especially jarring them awake to react to said stimuli. Example, tulpa A is afraid of lightning, and upon not being conscious, but the body in general hearing lightning, they may be woken to the conscious front and consequently act out in fear. It's interesting to note that stronger emotions tend to hold more intense control of the front. Again, back to the fearful example, a tulpa petrified by fear may hold onto the front much stronger in their reaction, more so than I, another awake, but more passively reacting tulpa or host. So if your tulpas scared of lightning, then, and they spontaneously front, it's going to be harder to wrest control from them.

553
01:03:49,610 --> 01:03:51,946
Kayla: If you're, like, less scared right now.

554
01:03:51,978 --> 01:04:02,466
Chris: It feels, if I'm like, if me. If me Chris is calm, then it's harder for me to take control back from the scared tulpa.

555
01:04:02,538 --> 01:04:03,034
Kayla: Right.

556
01:04:03,162 --> 01:04:09,382
Chris: Got it. That's like my mom with lightning. She's really scared of lightning. It's hard to get her to come back down from that.

557
01:04:09,446 --> 01:04:10,254
Kayla: There you go.

558
01:04:10,422 --> 01:04:11,622
Chris: Until the lightning's gone.

559
01:04:11,726 --> 01:04:19,150
Kayla: Gress already talked about how there's a thing called co fronting, where it's like you don't fully switch, but like two of you kind of share what? The body.

560
01:04:19,230 --> 01:04:19,850
Chris: How?

561
01:04:20,190 --> 01:04:20,918
Kayla: I don't know.

562
01:04:20,974 --> 01:04:24,454
Chris: Wait, no, stop. I can't. Yep, now you lost me.

563
01:04:24,542 --> 01:04:25,086
Kayla: Yep.

564
01:04:25,198 --> 01:04:30,356
Chris: I was with you with the swapping thing. But how can two people be. Is it like a two headed giant?

565
01:04:30,468 --> 01:04:33,720
Kayla: I guess. I guess.

566
01:04:34,540 --> 01:04:35,560
Chris: Is it like.

567
01:04:36,060 --> 01:04:41,100
Kayla: I don't know, I don't have a tulpa. It's hard to understand some of these things without having the actual tulpa.

568
01:04:41,180 --> 01:04:41,960
Chris: Okay.

569
01:04:42,660 --> 01:04:54,772
Kayla: Gress also wanted to make it clear that, like, during switching, the host becomes, like, the back seat consciousness, but it is also possible for the host to go entirely unconscious. And that's like just kind of a passive response.

570
01:04:54,836 --> 01:04:55,680
Chris: My lord.

571
01:04:56,890 --> 01:05:37,662
Kayla: And then Gress also wanted to point out, in relation to did and schizophrenia, they felt it was important to mention, for them to mention that did is generally a trauma based disorder. Like dissociative identity disorder generally crops up after a child experiences trauma or somebody experiences trauma. And schizophrenia, on the other hand, has more significant evidence of it being a, like, genetically based disease. So while there are trauma, there's definitely environmental factors, it's generally more. Schizophrenia is more genetically based and did is more trauma based, if it exists at all. We know that there's many doctors that say it doesn't.

572
01:05:37,766 --> 01:05:45,254
Chris: Right. Okay. And then gress is differentiating that from tulpomancy. That is not necessarily trauma based.

573
01:05:45,302 --> 01:06:01,526
Kayla: Right. Well, he was basically saying they, I actually don't know their gender because you and I talked about did and schizophrenia, and I think we maybe didn't quite make that very clear that, like, these two illnesses are not, are they only different from tulpomancy? They're also very different from each other.

574
01:06:01,678 --> 01:06:04,502
Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right. Got it.

575
01:06:04,606 --> 01:06:17,932
Kayla: So those are our corrections from last week. Thanks to everyone who listened and helped us out. I really appreciate it. So since Gress mentioned mental illness and did and schizophrenia, kind of talk about that more, I mentioned.

576
01:06:18,036 --> 01:06:18,420
Chris: Great.

577
01:06:18,500 --> 01:06:46,076
Kayla: Yeah, we covered a bit last week. Let's get more into it this week. I mentioned a few times that the tulpamancers I interacted with or observed seem to have a very informed understanding of certain mental illnesses. Did in particular. So let's talk about that. So Gress talked about how, you know, did came from this place. Schizophrenia comes from this place. I mean, again, mental illness is multifactorial, but that's, you know, those are the understandings. Another toplum answer under original title number 998 pointed out that one of their biggest pet peeves.

578
01:06:46,108 --> 01:06:47,732
Chris: Wait, hold up. What's their name again?

579
01:06:47,796 --> 01:06:53,200
Kayla: Unoriginal title number 998. That's good.

580
01:06:53,780 --> 01:06:54,724
Chris: That is a good name.

581
01:06:54,772 --> 01:07:28,310
Kayla: Yeah, they pointed out to me that, they pointed out one of their biggest pet peeves is other folks assuming that having a tulpa indicates schizophrenia. They point out that while they understand the concern, they often feel like the concern has less to do with actual worry and is more about othering tulpamancers or like, making fun of them in some way or being like, ooh, weird, or not understanding. Right. We talked last time about the ways Tulpaman city differs from schizophrenia. So to make this claim, it seems like you almost need to be less informed of the illness than actual tulpamancers seem to be.

582
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:28,654
Chris: Right?

583
01:07:28,702 --> 01:07:29,430
Kayla: Does that make sense?

584
01:07:29,510 --> 01:07:33,158
Chris: Yeah, totally. If what you're saying is because the community is so informed.

585
01:07:33,214 --> 01:07:33,810
Kayla: Right.

586
01:07:34,390 --> 01:07:39,606
Chris: For someone to think that means that they're less informed means they're probably not part of the community.

587
01:07:39,678 --> 01:08:00,726
Kayla: Right. There are even entire threads on R. Tulpas about mental illness did specifically meant to dispel myths and preconceived notions. And I personally really appreciate the work that these folks have put into, like, kind of refute the stigma. And honestly, what they're doing is like, leading to greater understanding of mental illness than if they hadn't. You know what I mean?

588
01:08:00,758 --> 01:08:07,046
Chris: Like, sweet. I was gonna say sicken, but it's the opposite of sick. It's healthy. Oh, what's up?

589
01:08:07,198 --> 01:08:13,342
Kayla: You can, like, throw around diagnoses as much as you want to, things you don't understand. But, like.

590
01:08:13,406 --> 01:08:14,150
Chris: And I do.

591
01:08:14,270 --> 01:08:37,567
Kayla: We all do. But the people in the tulbomancy community are like, no, this is what did actually is. So, like, that's actually good work that they're doing. Like, they're clarifying. They're destigmatizing. Yeah. Like, we all need more understanding, and we need to address the fact that there's, like, a lot of misinformation out there about mental illness. So I appreciate anyone who puts in the work to, like, correct myths or provide up to date info.

592
01:08:37,662 --> 01:08:39,223
Chris: Yeah. Thanks, guys.

593
01:08:39,310 --> 01:08:49,903
Kayla: In addition to being well informed about mental illness, some people in the community and from outside the community take this idea a step further. So, remember how we talked about the hearing Voices network last episode?

594
01:08:50,031 --> 01:08:50,470
Chris: Yeah.

595
01:08:50,535 --> 01:08:51,679
Kayla: That was the group that is.

596
01:08:51,719 --> 01:08:53,727
Chris: They're trying to destigmatizing hearing voices in your head.

597
01:08:53,743 --> 01:09:46,510
Kayla: Yes. As well as, like, having visions or other, like, weird sensory events. There's a similar movement for what some people call plurality. From what I understand, plurality is a term that either originated in or was heavily adopted by the general community of folks who often connect to each other online who've been diagnosed with did. So plurality refers to the phenomenon of multiple independent Personas who all cohabitate the same body. And I've noticed that specifically within the did community, plurality can often be reserved specifically for those with did. But that's not a hard and fast rule. And in the Tulpa Mansi community, plurality, as a word also works to describe the various Tulpa host systems. Interesting note. I also noticed folks with did use the word system to describe their various personalities. So it's a similarity. I don't.

598
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:54,862
Kayla: I think it's more just, like, a similarity of convenience rather than like, ooh, this means they got did. I think it just happens to share some traits that.

599
01:09:54,966 --> 01:09:58,734
Chris: Yeah, it's interesting to use similar words. Same words in some cases.

600
01:09:58,822 --> 01:10:12,606
Kayla: Well, tulpamancers and some folks with did who resent or refute the quote unquote disorder aspect of the diagnosis, maintain that multiple personality systems or system mates living in the same host don't necessarily an illness make interesting.

601
01:10:12,638 --> 01:10:24,572
Chris: So now we're not even talking about total answers. Now we're talking about people who have been diagnosed with multiple personalities. D I d. And they're saying it's not really diagnosis. There's nothing wrong with me.

602
01:10:24,636 --> 01:10:31,724
Kayla: They're saying that not everyone with multiple personalities has did. They're saying that not everyone that.

603
01:10:31,852 --> 01:10:32,268
Chris: Wait.

604
01:10:32,324 --> 01:10:39,520
Kayla: That having multiple person, that having a system, having a multiple Persona system is not necessarily a disorder.

605
01:10:39,860 --> 01:10:50,458
Chris: Are they saying that it's not a disorder and that it's just normal human variation? Or are they saying that some people with multiple personalities is a disorder and some people with multiple personalities is not.

606
01:10:50,514 --> 01:11:03,146
Kayla: That just like the hearing voices network, it's not saying, like, schizophrenia doesn't exist. They're just saying that is just one symptom in a mental illness. We'll get to it. But, like, again with schizophrenia, that's just one symptom in the mental illness.

607
01:11:03,218 --> 01:11:03,570
Chris: Sure.

608
01:11:03,650 --> 01:11:05,162
Kayla: That's not the whole thing.

609
01:11:05,266 --> 01:11:05,506
Chris: Right.

610
01:11:05,538 --> 01:11:34,230
Kayla: But this one, this is saying that just having, that doesn't make for these people, doesn't make it a disorder. In some of those Reddit threads I mentioned discussing mental health, tulpamancers will make it very clear that plurality can exist without disorder. Tulpamancers and folks with did also point out that there are other diagnoses that present multiple personalities as a symptom, and those are often DDnos associative disorder, not otherwise specified.

611
01:11:34,390 --> 01:11:35,450
Chris: Okay.

612
01:11:36,530 --> 01:12:05,522
Kayla: To some people is not the only diagnosis you can get. And basically what these tulpamancers say and what some people in, like, the plurality community outside of tulpomancy say is that for something to be considered a disorder and to be diagnosed as a disorder, the symptoms must cause clinically significant stress, distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

613
01:12:05,666 --> 01:12:06,570
Chris: That makes sense.

614
01:12:06,650 --> 01:12:26,074
Kayla: So, like the DSM five, the, like the diagnostic manual that, like, all of the mental illnesses are in, that we can be diagnosed with, generally, to be diagnosed with, generally be diagnosed with any mental illness, it must cause clinically significant distress or impairment in some important areas of your life.

615
01:12:26,122 --> 01:12:31,690
Chris: Right. That makes sense. That's why. That's like the difference between somebody that, like, drinks a lot and some, that's an alcoholic.

616
01:12:31,730 --> 01:12:48,074
Kayla: Right. Exactly right. And so these people with did. And then also some tulpa mancers are saying plurality is not necessarily a problem if it is not interfering with my life in major ways and not causing me to.

617
01:12:48,122 --> 01:12:52,394
Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that kind of talks a little bit. Like we talked about that a little last week.

618
01:12:52,442 --> 01:12:52,794
Kayla: Right.

619
01:12:52,882 --> 01:13:01,036
Chris: Like, where we talked about, like, what's the area? That's the line between normal human variation and illness.

620
01:13:01,108 --> 01:13:01,292
Kayla: Right.

621
01:13:01,316 --> 01:13:05,120
Chris: It feels like that is the line, is clinically significant distress.

622
01:13:05,700 --> 01:13:11,100
Kayla: So these people are saying that, like, having multiple personalities isn't necessarily distressing for some people. It's going.

623
01:13:11,140 --> 01:13:35,366
Chris: So the part I think I was confused is, like, whether they were. Is what they were saying is, like, is all. Is all plurality simply a variation. And they're saying. They're not necessarily saying that. They're saying plurality, which is having multiple personalities, can be something that causes clinically significant distress the same way that alcohol can cause that. It just doesn't necessarily cause that.

624
01:13:35,398 --> 01:13:42,486
Kayla: Right. It's like, having some people is normal, but if you have big old horse teeth, you might need to get them taken out.

625
01:13:42,558 --> 01:13:44,918
Chris: Are you talking about. Is that at me?

626
01:13:44,974 --> 01:13:45,486
Kayla: Yeah.

627
01:13:45,598 --> 01:13:49,070
Chris: Because I had to have four adult teeth taken out.

628
01:13:49,110 --> 01:13:49,950
Kayla: Yeah. So having teeth.

629
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:51,742
Chris: And also my wisdom, having teeth is.

630
01:13:51,766 --> 01:13:53,590
Kayla: Normal, but for you, it was a problem.

631
01:13:53,630 --> 01:13:58,210
Chris: I had giant freak teeth. Yeah, no, I know. That was messed up.

632
01:13:58,370 --> 01:14:00,070
Kayla: Or maybe you have a teensy mouth.

633
01:14:00,490 --> 01:14:20,282
Chris: I think my mouth is normal size. So I think the part. Yeah, that was the part I was getting confused at. And also then, like, differentiating, because in my head, I was kind of like, oh, did is the disordered bit, and tulpamanswers is the not disordered bit. So trying to further subdivide the disordered bit into not disordered versus. That was what was confusing me.

634
01:14:20,306 --> 01:14:20,904
Kayla: Sure, sure.

635
01:14:21,002 --> 01:14:39,564
Chris: But now in my head, I'm like, okay, the dividing lines are like this. Tulpas, tulpamancers. Excuse me, create their own autonomous personalities. Then there are people with plurality that they don't consciously do that. It just is something that happens to them.

636
01:14:39,612 --> 01:14:40,200
Kayla: Right.

637
01:14:40,500 --> 01:14:47,846
Chris: And it sounds like to me that it can be from trauma, according to. Yeah, okay. Gressen. Gross. Gross.

638
01:14:47,958 --> 01:14:48,650
Kayla: Grass.

639
01:14:49,630 --> 01:15:01,758
Chris: And then within that subgroup of personalities happened to me without my actually forcing it or developing it. Then there are some that are like, it's cool. It doesn't matter. It doesn't do anything.

640
01:15:01,774 --> 01:15:02,142
Kayla: Right.

641
01:15:02,246 --> 01:15:09,670
Chris: And there are some that are like, this is harming my life. Right, okay. I'm trying to, like, get the Venn diagram straight in my head.

642
01:15:09,710 --> 01:15:17,816
Kayla: Right. And, yeah, the only reason I'm including it is because I thought it was interesting that there was this larger plurality community that, like, dovetails with tulpamancy.

643
01:15:17,888 --> 01:15:18,584
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.

644
01:15:18,672 --> 01:15:42,952
Kayla: So some people with did in the plurality movement mostly stick to focusing on did. Others have a more expansive view of it. Some people view plurality strictly as mental illness. Others view it as more of a human variation type thing, like HvN, like all the people we're talking about. Right. Now HVN is hearing voices network. Sorry. In fact, there was even a plurality positivity world conference earlier this year.

645
01:15:43,016 --> 01:15:43,760
Chris: Oh, my God.

646
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:46,864
Kayla: Conducted, I think, entirely online through streaming videos.

647
01:15:46,912 --> 01:15:49,970
Chris: Was it just one guy cutting that out?

648
01:15:50,790 --> 01:16:00,446
Kayla: Plural. People got to share their experiences, connect with each other, and kind of reframe what is considered a mental illness in, like, big or small ways. So that was the plurality positivity world conference.

649
01:16:00,518 --> 01:16:01,334
Chris: That's neat.

650
01:16:01,502 --> 01:16:33,274
Kayla: Still, on this subject of mental illness, let's go back to the vice article we referenced last episode. I want to share some particular passages that jumped out at me regarding this topic. This passage starts off talking about switching and how, to an outside observer, this can look like mental illness. Quote, not so, say the Tulpamancers. In 99% of cases, the host can choose to switch back at any time. And doctor Vessier, professor of cognitive science at McGill, said via email that tulpamancy, quote, tulpa Mansi could have radical implications for the treatment of schizophrenia and other malignant psychoses.

651
01:16:33,442 --> 01:16:33,898
Chris: Whoa.

652
01:16:33,954 --> 01:16:54,064
Kayla: In the age. Well, listen to his next sentence and then decide how blown away you want to be in the age of big pharma. In the marketing of madness, Tulpa therapy could offer a free alternative that doesn't require institutionalization and social isolation. I hate the phrase big pharma getting thrown about and the marketing of madness. I'm not a fan. I'm already a little skeptical of this guy.

653
01:16:54,152 --> 01:17:17,404
Chris: Right. But that definitely makes me. That definitely gives me pause because, yeah, I know generally some positive stuff there about, like, we can able to more about it. Yeah, okay. But, but, yeah, they're like, oh, big pharma pushing the is just now you're starting. I mean, anything where you sound a little bit like Scientology is like, gonna make my.

654
01:17:17,492 --> 01:17:24,280
Kayla: Well, anything that makes me go like, I have a. I have an illness and you're vilifying medication.

655
01:17:25,580 --> 01:17:29,340
Chris: Not to say that there's like, that. That pharma companies aren't above reproach.

656
01:17:29,380 --> 01:17:30,920
Kayla: They're fuck big pharma.

657
01:17:31,260 --> 01:17:33,836
Chris: There are plenty of bad things that they do.

658
01:17:33,948 --> 01:17:35,740
Kayla: Fuck. What was it? Johnson Johnson?

659
01:17:35,860 --> 01:17:40,160
Chris: When you fuck all those opioid guys, right? It's. That's not Johnson and Johnson. Those.

660
01:17:41,180 --> 01:18:01,636
Kayla: They've done shitty stuff. I don't know if they've done opioid stuff, but they got in trouble. Johnson and Johnson are fuckers because they. And this is not me being crazy. They knowingly allowed their talc products to be contaminated with asbestos. And it's given, like, thousands of people cancer.

661
01:18:01,828 --> 01:18:03,820
Chris: Do we have a source for that so we can keep this on.

662
01:18:03,860 --> 01:18:08,972
Kayla: I wrote an entire podcast episode about it for Parrcast. It's the episode about Big Pharma and the cure for cancer.

663
01:18:09,036 --> 01:18:09,524
Chris: Oh, shit.

664
01:18:09,572 --> 01:18:37,398
Kayla: Very heavily researched, and they've been taken to court. There was like a whole. There was a. There was a. There's a whole class action lawsuit. They still refuse to, like, admit that they've done anything wrong, but, like, literally, their talc mine was like, next to an asbestos mine, basically. Like, there was no way for their talc to not be contaminated with asbestos. A lot of big pharma companies have done shitty things, which is why the big pharma thing is, like, so insidious to me.

665
01:18:37,414 --> 01:18:58,038
Chris: I think it's the. The thing that comes to my mind is when you're talking about big pharma in relation to, like, you know, therapies and treatment, right? And you throw that around, then it's a little like, whoa. Like, why are you bringing it up there when you're talking about it in other contexts? Like, here's all of the bad things that they've done, like talking about the.

666
01:18:58,054 --> 01:19:00,158
Kayla: Opioid epidemic or that kind of stuff. Right?

667
01:19:00,254 --> 01:19:00,930
Chris: Yeah.

668
01:19:01,510 --> 01:19:18,750
Kayla: This is back to the vice article. Some tulpa mancers already used the practice to self medicate. Quote, I've been suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts for a decade now, said Sam from Maryland. My tulpa would try and attack my anxiety and even forcefully possess my hand to keep me from harming myself with a knife. Damn, that.

669
01:19:19,090 --> 01:19:19,874
Chris: That's awesome.

670
01:19:19,922 --> 01:19:34,706
Kayla: Is amazing. And, like. Yeah, like, I. What? However you feel about tulpas, and however, if you feel like they're real. Not real physical. Not physical. Like, whatever. If this person really had that experience, like, that's amazing.

671
01:19:34,818 --> 01:19:37,842
Chris: Yeah. I mean, that's a real thing that happened in their brain.

672
01:19:37,906 --> 01:19:39,090
Kayla: Right, right.

673
01:19:39,130 --> 01:19:46,492
Chris: Like, no matter. Like, whatever we have to say about, like, the process and how it happens and whatever, that is an experience that they had.

674
01:19:46,556 --> 01:19:47,160
Kayla: Right.

675
01:19:47,820 --> 01:19:53,524
Chris: That's really fascinating. And I'll say this. It's probably better than them joining teal tribe.

676
01:19:53,612 --> 01:20:02,400
Kayla: Yeah, yeah, probably. It's certainly better than them joining NXivM. Yeah, definitely better than going to old romtha.

677
01:20:02,700 --> 01:20:07,252
Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's pretty much better than almost anything that we've talked about on the podcast.

678
01:20:07,396 --> 01:20:19,560
Kayla: Probably better than going to eat at a vegan restaurant. Probably better than playing a video game that makes promises they can never keep. Yeah, maybe not better than going and volunteering at animal sanctuary.

679
01:20:20,300 --> 01:20:21,356
Chris: Yeah, potentially.

680
01:20:21,428 --> 01:20:21,772
Kayla: Potentially.

681
01:20:21,796 --> 01:20:31,084
Chris: But if we talk about that then are we actually talking about joining Robert de Grimston and the process church?

682
01:20:31,252 --> 01:20:31,964
Kayla: That's true.

683
01:20:32,052 --> 01:20:33,404
Chris: It's maybe better than that.

684
01:20:33,452 --> 01:20:33,660
Kayla: Yeah.

685
01:20:33,700 --> 01:20:40,062
Chris: Probably not better than going to an island in the South Pacific, though, and celebrating John from. Because that sounded fun.

686
01:20:40,126 --> 01:21:10,700
Kayla: That did sound fun. Moving on to talk about schizophrenia again from the vice article, doctor Vacier, again, I keep pronouncing that wrong and I don't really care, says, quote, schizophrenia could be understand as an incapacitating example of involuntary tulpas. Therefore, by forming positive relationships with their symptoms, sufferers can start to recover. It's an idea shared by the hearing voices movement, who challenge, like, who, as we know, challenge the medical models of schizophrenia and suggest that pathologization aggravates symptoms.

687
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:11,776
Chris: Interesting.

688
01:21:11,808 --> 01:21:15,320
Kayla: Yeah. Let me read the next quote, because it's important.

689
01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:18,520
Chris: Mental health is just so complicated.

690
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:31,580
Kayla: Quote, my schizophrenia manifested itself by having many thoughts and ideas, all conflicting and shouting at me, said Logan, who wanted his last name withheld. Turning them into tulpas, gave those thoughts a face and allowed them to be sorted out in. In a way that made sense.

691
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:32,608
Chris: Huh.

692
01:21:32,744 --> 01:21:33,736
Kayla: Interesting, right?

693
01:21:33,888 --> 01:21:39,912
Chris: Wow. Yeah. You're like giving avatars to your competing ideas and thoughts and everything.

694
01:21:39,976 --> 01:21:51,000
Kayla: And, like, that definitely butts up against some like, or like connects to, like, some techniques and coping skills that you and I have learned in therapy for just like, regular old depression and anxiety.

695
01:21:51,080 --> 01:22:06,694
Chris: One of the more interesting things that I did at one point was drawing a picture of what my, I, my anxiety felt like. And then like putting it just basically sitting it in front of me and then just like, there it is. It's a thing. It exists separate from you.

696
01:22:06,782 --> 01:22:07,270
Kayla: Right.

697
01:22:07,390 --> 01:22:12,094
Chris: You know, it can. It can be separate. It doesn't, you know, you can think of it. Think of it that way.

698
01:22:12,142 --> 01:22:12,686
Kayla: Right.

699
01:22:12,838 --> 01:22:21,638
Chris: So, yeah. Giving. Giving different forms to some of the thoughts and emotions and whatever that we have. Yeah.

700
01:22:21,774 --> 01:22:44,424
Kayla: Well, sometimes this kind of makes me think about, like, acceptance versus, like, pathologizing, pathologization, where it's like, if you sometimes, if you're like, oh, God, this is just my depression talking. You can spin out, whereas you can kind of be like, this is a thought that I'm having. It's just a thought. I feel bad. I acknowledge it. Let's go.

701
01:22:44,512 --> 01:22:50,504
Chris: Right? Yeah. And, like, anxiety about anxiety is like one of the biggest problems with anxiety.

702
01:22:50,552 --> 01:22:51,342
Kayla: Right, right.

703
01:22:51,406 --> 01:22:53,250
Chris: So that's. Yeah.

704
01:22:54,230 --> 01:22:58,422
Kayla: Okay. I want to transition away a bit away.

705
01:22:58,526 --> 01:22:59,694
Chris: Good. Cause I was getting anxiety.

706
01:22:59,742 --> 01:23:17,850
Kayla: I'm talking about mental illness. We'll keep. We'll still have anxiety. It's fine. Let's go back to the community itself. During my research, a host I chatted with, the same autumn host who I mentioned earlier, they linked me to something really interesting. The annual Tulpa community census.

707
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:19,200
Chris: What?

708
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:20,920
Kayla: I guess nearly every year.

709
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:21,568
Chris: No.

710
01:23:21,664 --> 01:23:26,420
Kayla: The R television community conducts a census to try and get some data about their community.

711
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:29,860
Chris: That's bitchin'no.

712
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:33,256
Kayla: I was really impressed by that.

713
01:23:33,288 --> 01:23:34,816
Chris: What community does that?

714
01:23:34,888 --> 01:23:44,072
Kayla: It's amazing. And, like. And it's not just like, here's some fuckin numbers. Like, the data is then input into, like, charts and graphs, and, like, offers some really interesting insights.

715
01:23:44,096 --> 01:23:48,110
Chris: As an excel Nerdev, that gives me an excel boner.

716
01:23:48,190 --> 01:23:51,910
Kayla: That's why earlier, when you were like, what's the oldest tulpa? I was like, I can't tell you where I got this info.

717
01:23:52,070 --> 01:23:57,614
Chris: Oh. Cause it was from the census. You got access to it? Yeah, with the charts and everything automatically.

718
01:23:57,622 --> 01:23:58,670
Kayla: You should link it to me.

719
01:23:58,790 --> 01:23:59,614
Chris: You'll show me charts?

720
01:23:59,662 --> 01:24:16,648
Kayla: Yes. Let me. I'm gonna. Go ahead. Okay. So this census goes to show that even though there are few studies, like official scientific studies done in tulpas, there are people out there trying to keep track of the information. I'm gonna read you. I'm gonna just, like, throw a bunch of info from the census at you, and then we can look at it.

721
01:24:16,664 --> 01:24:18,712
Chris: Okay? Yeah, yeah. Throw it over.

722
01:24:18,776 --> 01:24:26,680
Kayla: A majority of the people in the community are either employed or in school, full or part time. Only 13% of the community is neither working or in school.

723
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:27,248
Chris: Okay.

724
01:24:27,304 --> 01:24:42,004
Kayla: The population self identifies as 59% male, 27% female, 6% genderqueer, 4% agender, and 4% other. Only 43% identify as heterosexual. The remaining 57% of folks are bisexual, pansexual, asexual, homosexual or other.

725
01:24:42,152 --> 01:24:48,364
Chris: So already it's sounding like, on the employment front, it's not really more than the general pop.

726
01:24:48,412 --> 01:24:51,652
Kayla: I don't think only 13% are unemployed or out of school.

727
01:24:51,716 --> 01:24:55,188
Chris: Yeah, but it depends on how you count. Like, there's different. There's different unemployment statistics.

728
01:24:55,204 --> 01:24:56,600
Kayla: Right. Like, these could be children.

729
01:24:57,140 --> 01:25:00,852
Chris: Right. That's what I mean. So, like, the employment statistics only count the employable.

730
01:25:00,916 --> 01:25:01,332
Kayla: Right.

731
01:25:01,436 --> 01:25:09,218
Chris: So it may even be actually smaller. It definitely sounds like it skews mail, right?

732
01:25:09,274 --> 01:25:09,962
Kayla: Yeah.

733
01:25:10,146 --> 01:25:21,906
Chris: Would you say 56%? Okay. Excuse male, particularly when you consider that for single gender, the female side was, what, only 20?

734
01:25:21,938 --> 01:25:22,906
Kayla: You said 27%.

735
01:25:23,586 --> 01:25:32,050
Chris: That's interesting. And then very. It seems like it definitely, compared to the general population, skews towards queerness versus straightness.

736
01:25:32,170 --> 01:25:32,778
Kayla: Yes.

737
01:25:32,914 --> 01:25:33,776
Chris: Interesting.

738
01:25:33,938 --> 01:25:38,676
Kayla: 29.5% of the population is atheist. 28% is agnostic.

739
01:25:38,788 --> 01:25:41,364
Chris: I have no idea how to compare that to the general population.

740
01:25:41,492 --> 01:25:43,588
Kayla: I think it's way less than that.

741
01:25:43,604 --> 01:25:50,116
Chris: Less? Yeah. No, I just. I don't know what the popular, the self identifying atheist population is. You're right. It's probably less than 30.

742
01:25:50,268 --> 01:25:50,620
Kayla: Probably.

743
01:25:50,660 --> 01:25:51,960
Chris: But I don't know.

744
01:25:52,260 --> 01:26:00,660
Kayla: 28% is agnostic, 14.6% is christian. That's definitely way lower than at least the american population. But again, we're not talking about just America. We're talking about.

745
01:26:00,740 --> 01:26:01,876
Chris: Oh, right, this is on Reddit.

746
01:26:01,908 --> 01:26:04,646
Kayla: We're talking about a lot of, like, quote unquote, western countries.

747
01:26:04,758 --> 01:26:05,342
Chris: Okay.

748
01:26:05,446 --> 01:26:51,334
Kayla: And then also Russia, 14.6% christian, 3% buddhist, and 24% other, including Hindu, Tao, jewish, and Shinto. Almost 90% of the people involved in the community have already successfully developed a tulpa. The vast majority of folks have two personalities total. That is, they have one tulpa. Okay, going back to our quote, how did you find out about the Tulpa Mansi community? Question. Sources cited were YouTube, Reddit, general online research, the MLP community, four chan friends, books or stories, and creepypasta. Once again, MLP, my Little Pony, creepypasta, scary stories online. 68% of people surveyed believe tulpas are a psychological phenomenon, with 18% unsure, 5% thinking there's a metaphysical reason, and 9% other.

749
01:26:51,462 --> 01:26:56,430
Chris: Huh. So that's very much skews in favor of it's a psychological phenomenon. Not.

750
01:26:56,470 --> 01:27:03,892
Kayla: We talked about that last week a little bit or last episode little bit too. But, yeah, it's. And to have that actually have that data and not just us going like.

751
01:27:03,956 --> 01:27:07,240
Chris: Yeah, we think, yeah, how do we do it?

752
01:27:08,660 --> 01:27:12,580
Kayla: So, okay. 68% believe tulpas are psychological phenomenon.

753
01:27:12,620 --> 01:27:14,076
Chris: Yeah, that's a very large majority.

754
01:27:14,148 --> 01:27:32,402
Kayla: 68% also believe tulpas are conscious beings independent of the hosts. 22% are unsure, and 8% answered no. Most people answered no when asked if anyone outside their online communities know about their tulpas. But those are all just demographics about the hosts. Let's talk about the tulpas themselves.

755
01:27:32,546 --> 01:27:33,474
Chris: Glorious.

756
01:27:33,642 --> 01:27:42,202
Kayla: Of those surveyed, 57.2% were female, 30% were male, 6% agender, 5% genderqueer, and 1% other.

757
01:27:42,346 --> 01:27:54,828
Chris: So that, like, mirrors the numbers from the hosts, is the inverse. That's like, the inverse of the populations of the host. It's really interesting.

758
01:27:54,884 --> 01:28:00,964
Kayla: Like, agender and genderqueer and the outside of the binary genders seem to be the same, but, like, the female, the.

759
01:28:00,972 --> 01:28:21,056
Chris: Female male thing is, like, almost the same. Yeah. And I wonder if at some, like, large number scale, if that's some indication of, like, wanting, like, females wanting male energy and males wanting female energy, maybe around them, maybe in their lives or something, right? I don't know. That's total speculation.

760
01:28:21,168 --> 01:28:24,820
Kayla: I don't know either. That's why the data is just data.

761
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,180
Chris: Lies. Damn lies. And statistics.

762
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:53,396
Kayla: Statistics. 27% of the tulpas were heterosexual, 28% were bisexual, 17% asexual, 15% pansexual, 7.8% homosexual, and 3% other. 56% of tulpas were created intentionally. 25.7% of hosts said some of their tulpas developed naturally, and some developed intentionally, and 18% developing their tulpas developed naturally.

763
01:28:53,508 --> 01:29:01,940
Chris: Isn't developing naturally essentially what we're talking about before with, like, plurality, like, being did, but not necessarily disordered. Yeah, interesting.

764
01:29:01,980 --> 01:29:06,320
Kayla: But it's. We can get a little bit more into, like, the natural development. We'll get to that.

765
01:29:06,860 --> 01:29:08,084
Chris: A lot of. We'll get to that.

766
01:29:08,172 --> 01:29:21,302
Kayla: Ten hour episode. The vast majority of tulpas are in human form. And then it went demi human, and then the rest were some combo of, like, shapeshifter, anthropomorphic spirit, demon, monster, animal, or amorphous.

767
01:29:21,486 --> 01:29:22,246
Chris: Amorphous.

768
01:29:22,318 --> 01:29:24,694
Kayla: Meaning that it's like a ball of light or, like. Yeah.

769
01:29:24,782 --> 01:29:27,478
Chris: Oh, yeah. A ball of light is much nicer than blob.

770
01:29:27,534 --> 01:29:34,078
Kayla: Yeah. Most forcing sessions last either 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour. Wait.

771
01:29:34,094 --> 01:29:37,130
Chris: You only have to sit there and think for an hour to get a tulpa?

772
01:29:37,440 --> 01:29:39,112
Kayla: Forcing sessions. That's not okay.

773
01:29:39,136 --> 01:29:41,256
Chris: So you do multiple of those. Okay. Okay.

774
01:29:41,288 --> 01:29:41,496
Kayla: Ooh.

775
01:29:41,528 --> 01:29:41,808
Chris: Oh, man.

776
01:29:41,824 --> 01:29:42,800
Kayla: I was, like, saying, how much time?

777
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:45,512
Chris: I know what I'm doing. After we record how much time per.

778
01:29:45,536 --> 01:29:53,136
Kayla: Day do you spend forcing? 51% of responders said there can be multiple independent threads of experience going on in their minds at one time.

779
01:29:53,248 --> 01:29:55,064
Chris: Oh, my God. That sounds intense.

780
01:29:55,152 --> 01:30:00,144
Kayla: Most responders said they sometimes, rarely, or never mistake their tulpas voice for their own thoughts.

781
01:30:00,312 --> 01:30:01,256
Chris: Wait, sorry.

782
01:30:01,288 --> 01:30:11,514
Kayla: Say that one again. Most responders said they sometimes, rarely, or never mistake their tulpas voice for their own thoughts. So most of the time, at least 80% of the time, they know that it's their tulpa's voice.

783
01:30:11,642 --> 01:30:12,122
Chris: Okay.

784
01:30:12,186 --> 01:30:15,666
Kayla: And they know they can tell that it's their thoughts and the tulpa between.

785
01:30:15,738 --> 01:30:19,722
Chris: Only sometimes and never. Okay. All right. I thought I was, like, getting confused.

786
01:30:19,826 --> 01:30:30,018
Kayla: Sometimes, rarely, or never. Yeah. Listen to this number. 95.6% of responders said their tulpas had a positive impact on their lives.

787
01:30:30,114 --> 01:30:30,834
Chris: Wow.

788
01:30:31,002 --> 01:30:36,660
Kayla: 63.8% said that having a tulpa has not had a. Any negative effects on their lives.

789
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:37,920
Chris: Wow.

790
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:38,744
Kayla: Yeah.

791
01:30:38,912 --> 01:30:51,632
Chris: So 68% basically 63% are saying positive impact and no negative impact. Another like 20% to 30% mixed impact, but certainly enough to say that it was positive.

792
01:30:51,696 --> 01:30:52,792
Kayla: Yeah. Net positive.

793
01:30:52,856 --> 01:30:58,980
Chris: Net positive. And then only 5% people didn't say it was a net positive. Wow. Wow.

794
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:33,410
Kayla: Like we mentioned, there are many incidents of mental illness in the Tulpa Mansi community. Community. But this census confirms for us that the most common illnesses by a wide margin are depression and anxiety. A few other honorable population. Right. A few other honorable mentions were ADHD and autism, which I believe is not technically a mental illness in the same way that depression and anxiety are. I'm not well versed, but I think autism is generally considered a developmental disorder or developmental variation. But again, I'm not an authority on that. A few others surveyed mentioned PTSD and bipolar as well.

795
01:31:33,530 --> 01:31:34,426
Chris: Interesting.

796
01:31:34,578 --> 01:31:43,922
Kayla: So I thought those stats in particular were interesting and illuminating. We talked a lot about the demographics in the community, so it was interesting to see those exact things surveyed and their answers.

797
01:31:44,066 --> 01:31:46,490
Chris: Okay, that's amazing. Do I get to see the charts?

798
01:31:46,570 --> 01:31:48,018
Kayla: Are you ready to see the charts?

799
01:31:48,074 --> 01:32:02,876
Chris: I'm always ready to see charts. I'm a chart guy. Okay. So it definitely looks like jet Ski's young. There's a. Like the. There's a sort of a big curve bump for teenagers and 20 somethings, and there's nobody that's.

800
01:32:02,948 --> 01:32:05,204
Kayla: But there are still oldies in there.

801
01:32:05,292 --> 01:32:06,924
Chris: There are, but it's just not as many.

802
01:32:06,972 --> 01:32:08,212
Kayla: Not as many. But it's like.

803
01:32:08,276 --> 01:32:11,068
Chris: But I wonder if that's just. Cause it's like a new thing, at least online.

804
01:32:11,164 --> 01:32:15,852
Kayla: Well, it's also like, who's going on Reddit? It's probably mostly younger people.

805
01:32:15,956 --> 01:32:19,916
Chris: Oh, right. So it actually participates. There's some selection bias, is what you're saying. Interesting. Okay.

806
01:32:19,948 --> 01:32:29,770
Kayla: There's selection bias for. Yeah. Again, this is a census. This is all, like, self volunteer participation. So, you know, not necessarily scientific data collection.

807
01:32:30,310 --> 01:32:32,134
Chris: Okay. Some pie charts.

808
01:32:32,262 --> 01:32:36,766
Kayla: See this? Amazing how there's, like, charts and graphs and analysis.

809
01:32:36,798 --> 01:32:42,654
Chris: Oh, yeah. The analysis, like, the self analysis here is fantastic.

810
01:32:42,822 --> 01:32:48,950
Kayla: We'll be sure to share this in our show notes as well, so that our listeners can have a chance to. To peruse.

811
01:32:49,070 --> 01:32:55,558
Chris: Yeah, please peruse the charts. The charts are pretty good. Okay, so cool. Thank you for showing me this.

812
01:32:55,614 --> 01:32:56,302
Kayla: You're welcome.

813
01:32:56,446 --> 01:32:57,170
Chris: Let's.

814
01:32:58,150 --> 01:33:02,262
Kayla: You ready to talk about my actual conversations with actual.

815
01:33:02,366 --> 01:33:05,918
Chris: Yes. This is the part that I've been looking forward to the most since you said this.

816
01:33:05,974 --> 01:33:27,850
Kayla: Yeah, I chatted with a lot of hosts in their tulpas, and like I mentioned, the response I got was so overwhelming and was from so many people. And I think every single person who reached out to me and helped just thank you forever. I'm gonna go ahead and try to share some of the most interesting tidbits right now. I can't include every conversation I had or else we would literally be here for a week.

817
01:33:27,930 --> 01:33:30,690
Chris: Are you, like, reading their full transcripts of what they told you or.

818
01:33:30,770 --> 01:33:33,850
Kayla: No, but it'll be. There's a lot. There's a lot.

819
01:33:33,970 --> 01:33:34,418
Chris: Okay.

820
01:33:34,474 --> 01:33:41,366
Kayla: There's a lot. So, yeah. Apologies to anyone who doesn't get their story included. Hopefully we can do another Tulpa episode in the future.

821
01:33:41,538 --> 01:33:43,534
Chris: We'll do what? We'll bring somebody on the show.

822
01:33:43,702 --> 01:34:01,158
Kayla: Ooh. It's a good idea. Okay. One user in particular who was very helpful goes by the name the username Quanri. Quanri first discovered the concept of tulpas during a YouTube binge of paranormal videos and learned about them there.

823
01:34:01,254 --> 01:34:02,478
Chris: Seems like a common method.

824
01:34:02,534 --> 01:34:22,648
Kayla: Yes. Quanri said she already had imaginary friends and that just kind of. They just kind of happened to be in her life naturally. And up until that point, she had assumed that they were, like, spirit guides or spirits of some sort. She called them spirit friends and even felt bad for laughing at the idea of tulpas before realizing, oh, that's what I have.

825
01:34:22,824 --> 01:34:33,000
Chris: Wait, so hold on. So this person had imaginary friends but then was making fun of tulpas? Yeah, I don't.

826
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:38,510
Kayla: Well, for her, they were spirit guides and these were man made imaginary friends. So it just felt different.

827
01:34:39,330 --> 01:34:39,674
Chris: Okay.

828
01:34:39,682 --> 01:34:52,590
Kayla: So she started out, she was like, I have these friends. They're imaginary. And then she was like, oh, these aren't imaginary friends, they're spirit guides. And then she heard about tulpas, and she was like, ha ha. These adults have imaginary friends. And then she realized, oh, that's what I have.

829
01:34:53,170 --> 01:34:55,690
Chris: Okay. Yeah, okay, I get it. I get it.

830
01:34:55,730 --> 01:35:19,176
Kayla: So Quanri has high functioning autism, and she explained, quote, this disability makes it difficult to talk to people face to face. So to have autism means there will be times where you'll be alone. And I was sick of it. I hated being alone. Sure, there was basketball and the weekend when I saw one of my friends, but otherwise, I was alone, even my family. Did you say nice to being lonely?

831
01:35:19,288 --> 01:35:21,928
Chris: No, I said nice about the basketball. So I said, I'm a baller.

832
01:35:21,984 --> 01:35:27,984
Kayla: Okay, well, I was very confused. That was very hurtful and rude. Never mind.

833
01:35:28,032 --> 01:35:30,072
Chris: I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I like basketball.

834
01:35:30,136 --> 01:35:34,768
Kayla: Yes, you like basketball. Even my family mostly stayed in their rooms.

835
01:35:34,944 --> 01:35:36,408
Chris: But we're talking in her voice again.

836
01:35:36,464 --> 01:35:36,744
Kayla: Yes.

837
01:35:36,792 --> 01:35:37,392
Chris: Okay.

838
01:35:37,536 --> 01:36:16,492
Kayla: Quanrie, at one point, thought about the show the wild thornberries, which I also watched as a child. It's a very wonderful animated series about the Thornberry family, and they are a family of conservation enthusiasts. And, like, the dad is the host of a nature show, and the mom shoots the nature show, so the family travels around doing their nature show. So the two daughters are homeschooled by these nature people and just, like, travel around the world. And the one is, like, the teenager, and she's, like, too cool for school, and the other one's, like, a pre teen, and she's kind of, like a big old nerd. And then she accidentally gets gifted the power of being able to talk to animals, so everywhere they go.

839
01:36:16,556 --> 01:36:21,732
Chris: Okay, I was wondering when that was gonna get relevant. It's like you're just describing this. This show from the nineties, and I don't.

840
01:36:21,796 --> 01:36:23,972
Kayla: Yeah, it was a great show. I actually think it was from the.

841
01:36:24,036 --> 01:36:26,840
Chris: I didn't know why it was relevant until you just said that.

842
01:36:27,140 --> 01:36:35,452
Kayla: So Quanri watched the show. Main character Eliza speaks to animals. She wondered if she could teach herself to speak to animals, but that.

843
01:36:35,596 --> 01:36:38,080
Chris: Can she also hear animals or just speak to them?

844
01:36:38,500 --> 01:36:40,604
Kayla: Yes. She could communicate with animals.

845
01:36:40,772 --> 01:36:42,620
Chris: So she could understand animals.

846
01:36:42,740 --> 01:36:59,458
Kayla: Yes. She could communicate with animals. Yes. So Quanrie thought about the show wild thornberries. Like, the main character in the wild thornberry is Eliza Thornberry. Can speak to animals. Can communicate with animals. Okay, so Kwame was like, ooh, maybe I can teach myself to talk to animals, and then I won't be lonely.

847
01:36:59,514 --> 01:37:01,018
Chris: Because there's inspired by the show, and.

848
01:37:01,034 --> 01:37:17,988
Kayla: Then there's animals around. There's pets, there's birds, there's whatever. So she was like, cool, I'm lonely. Here's a way to not be lonely. And so she tried to, like, she went online, she did a bunch of research. She did, again, a bunch of, like, this, like, visualizing and, like, self coaching and, quote unquote, tried to learn how to talk to animals.

849
01:37:18,044 --> 01:37:19,308
Chris: But, like, Doctor Dolittle.

850
01:37:19,364 --> 01:37:23,560
Kayla: Like Doctor Dolittle or like, Eliza Thornberry for a more contemporary reference.

851
01:37:24,140 --> 01:37:27,160
Chris: I think still more people know Doctor Dolittle.

852
01:37:28,500 --> 01:37:35,800
Kayla: If we surveyed right now, everyone under the age of 30 and everyone over the age of 30, I guarantee you.

853
01:37:36,580 --> 01:37:37,732
Chris: You guarantee me?

854
01:37:37,836 --> 01:37:40,356
Kayla: Guarantee. Guarantee me a thousand percent.

855
01:37:40,548 --> 01:37:41,644
Chris: Okay. I think we need to go.

856
01:37:41,692 --> 01:37:45,384
Kayla: More people under 30 would. Would know. Eliza Thornberry, then.

857
01:37:45,472 --> 01:37:46,192
Chris: Doctor Doolittle?

858
01:37:46,256 --> 01:37:46,720
Kayla: Yes.

859
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:50,784
Chris: Doctor Doolittle is like shorthand for talking to animals for.

860
01:37:50,872 --> 01:37:52,420
Kayla: For people over 30.

861
01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:55,040
Chris: All right.

862
01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:57,620
Kayla: Sorry that you're being grouped in with boomers. It's just how it's gonna be.

863
01:37:57,960 --> 01:37:59,440
Chris: Okay, I see how it's gonna be.

864
01:37:59,480 --> 01:37:59,928
Kayla: Sorry.

865
01:38:00,024 --> 01:38:00,328
Chris: Wow.

866
01:38:00,384 --> 01:38:01,672
Kayla: You're the one who's calling yourself out.

867
01:38:01,776 --> 01:38:05,304
Chris: Anyway, I'm gonna do this survey on Twitter, and I'm gonna prove you wrong.

868
01:38:05,352 --> 01:38:09,032
Kayla: Yeah, that's definitely how you do. Proof is you ask a question on Twitter. That's how you.

869
01:38:09,056 --> 01:38:10,532
Chris: Yeah, science right there.

870
01:38:10,596 --> 01:38:11,068
Kayla: Science.

871
01:38:11,164 --> 01:38:12,036
Chris: Yeah, get science.

872
01:38:12,108 --> 01:38:13,260
Kayla: Let me finish my sentence.

873
01:38:13,380 --> 01:38:14,164
Chris: Fine.

874
01:38:14,332 --> 01:38:25,796
Kayla: So she taught herself to talk to animals, communicate with the animals, but because there's animals everywhere. Which she successfully did well, in terms of, like, you know, convincing your brain that was happening.

875
01:38:25,828 --> 01:38:30,236
Chris: Okay. Yeah. But even then, like. So she got to the point where she thought she could hear what animals were saying.

876
01:38:30,268 --> 01:38:35,456
Kayla: Yeah. And then because of that, it just. It was like she was overwhelmed with voices all the time.

877
01:38:35,548 --> 01:38:36,528
Chris: Oh, too many animals.

878
01:38:36,584 --> 01:38:58,312
Kayla: Too many animals. But as this was happening. But here's a quote from her. Amidst this chaos, in my mind, there was a red european dragon lying down in chains and looking as miserable as I felt. I liked this nameless dragon who seemed to understand what I was feeling. This dragon didn't say anything. So I think it must have been tulpish that I knew how he was feeling.

879
01:38:58,416 --> 01:38:59,616
Chris: Wait, it was what?

880
01:38:59,688 --> 01:39:11,726
Kayla: Tulpish. So Taupish is the. It's like a. I think it's a language or a proto language that's, like, specific to tulpas. And I think generally they only speak Tulpish when they. Before they have a grasp of, like.

881
01:39:11,758 --> 01:39:13,870
Chris: Tulpas have their own language, human language.

882
01:39:13,990 --> 01:39:24,090
Kayla: Yeah, but I think it's. I think it's probably. And, like, listeners correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's probably similar to, like, how we kind of speak in, like, babble when we're babies.

883
01:39:24,510 --> 01:39:29,614
Chris: Okay, so it's like. It's like. It's not like English. It's like baby talk.

884
01:39:29,702 --> 01:39:30,158
Kayla: I think so.

885
01:39:30,174 --> 01:39:30,622
Chris: For tall?

886
01:39:30,686 --> 01:39:31,570
Kayla: I think so.

887
01:39:32,230 --> 01:39:34,650
Chris: Got it. Yeah, I think.

888
01:39:34,990 --> 01:39:59,968
Kayla: But again, listeners tell me if I'm wrong. Quanrie started ignoring the other voices. Like, she's hearing. She's having these troubles. She meets this little dragon in her mind, and she's like, I'm gonna ignore the voices. But she went ahead and. She went ahead and paid attention to the dragon because she really liked this dragon. She always liked dragons. This dragon seemed to kind of be more her speed than all these other voices.

889
01:40:00,024 --> 01:40:01,056
Chris: Dragons are dope.

890
01:40:01,128 --> 01:40:10,168
Kayla: The dragons are dope. Eventually, this dragon grew big and strong, sloughed off his chains and chased away the rest of the voices that were bugging quanri.

891
01:40:10,264 --> 01:40:11,744
Chris: Aw, so it's like a noble dragon.

892
01:40:11,792 --> 01:40:12,424
Kayla: Yeah.

893
01:40:12,592 --> 01:40:15,040
Chris: I feel like red dragons are not usually depicted that way.

894
01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:24,190
Kayla: Well, this dragon is. And while she didn't know it at the time, Quanri had just met her first tulpa. Jack.

895
01:40:24,650 --> 01:40:25,538
Chris: His name was Jack.

896
01:40:25,594 --> 01:41:06,102
Kayla: His name was Jack. Once while I was walking to the train station to get home after school, wondering why God had given me this disability, as I sometimes did when I was alone and didn't want to be. Suddenly I stopped walking because my head went black. And in this void of black, I saw a humanoid. Short black hair, fiery red eyes, black jeans and boots, a black scaly tail waving from side to side, and black feathery wings. His jeans had fire markings on them as well. And he had an aura of fire. He was sort of intimidating at first, but he smiled warmly, offered his hand, and the first words were, quote, I can be your friend. I immediately recognized my dragon. He was my dragon who had come back in that current, empty world of my imagination. I gave him a hug.

897
01:41:06,166 --> 01:41:07,790
Kayla: I was so happy to have him back.

898
01:41:07,910 --> 01:41:10,246
Chris: So when he chased the voices away, he also went away?

899
01:41:10,318 --> 01:41:10,878
Kayla: Yeah.

900
01:41:11,014 --> 01:41:13,010
Chris: Oh. Why did he do that?

901
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:15,248
Kayla: Because he's just chasing the voices away.

902
01:41:15,384 --> 01:41:19,624
Chris: Oh, so you had to chase them, like, far away and then chase him far away. Oh, okay.

903
01:41:19,712 --> 01:41:20,760
Kayla: And then he was able to come back.

904
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:23,272
Chris: He came back as a person, not a dragon.

905
01:41:23,296 --> 01:41:23,952
Kayla: Yeah.

906
01:41:24,136 --> 01:41:25,552
Chris: Or like a person with a tail.

907
01:41:25,576 --> 01:41:26,448
Kayla: A person dragon.

908
01:41:26,544 --> 01:41:26,920
Chris: Okay.

909
01:41:26,960 --> 01:41:27,896
Kayla: A dragon person.

910
01:41:28,048 --> 01:41:28,860
Chris: Okay.

911
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:34,660
Kayla: Well, Quanri considers Jack to be her quote unquote service dragon. Jack isn't alone.

912
01:41:35,080 --> 01:41:38,366
Chris: That means that you can take it on planes and things like that. Okay.

913
01:41:38,448 --> 01:41:41,234
Kayla: Quanri currently has a system of eight tulpas.

914
01:41:41,322 --> 01:41:41,874
Chris: Holy crap.

915
01:41:41,922 --> 01:41:46,394
Kayla: That she considers like a family. And she also shared pictures with me that she drew of all of them.

916
01:41:46,482 --> 01:41:47,130
Chris: Awesome.

917
01:41:47,250 --> 01:41:48,194
Kayla: So you want to see those pictures?

918
01:41:48,242 --> 01:41:48,870
Chris: Yeah.

919
01:41:49,330 --> 01:42:05,650
Kayla: So here is the drawing that Quanrie shared with me. So it has her current system of tulpas, or headmates, as she called them. Yeah. And so they're all obviously labeled. Yeah, there's. There's Jack the dragon. There's all of her other ones.

920
01:42:05,690 --> 01:42:06,586
Chris: That's pretty hot.

921
01:42:06,698 --> 01:42:08,506
Kayla: Yeah, does Johnny.

922
01:42:08,618 --> 01:42:10,874
Chris: Wow, there's some creative stuff here.

923
01:42:10,922 --> 01:42:11,550
Kayla: Yeah.

924
01:42:11,930 --> 01:42:14,242
Chris: Like this little thing with the jewel eyes.

925
01:42:14,346 --> 01:42:15,370
Kayla: Yeah, that's wren.

926
01:42:15,490 --> 01:42:16,410
Chris: Interesting.

927
01:42:16,570 --> 01:42:17,714
Kayla: Well, in this one this.

928
01:42:17,762 --> 01:42:24,202
Chris: Anyway, I suppose since this is a auditory medium, I should probably describe what I'm seeing and not just go, wow, cool.

929
01:42:24,306 --> 01:42:25,450
Kayla: Oh, we'll post it.

930
01:42:25,490 --> 01:42:51,474
Chris: Yeah, we'll post it. But, like. Okay, so it's just. It's. It's a landscape of eight different beings. In the center is Jack and Johnny, who are humanoid but with wings. One has black wings, one has white wings. Then there's like a. Is that. What would you call it? A werewolf? Windshot anthropomorphic curse who is like, a small, little, like, cutesy black dragon.

931
01:42:51,522 --> 01:42:53,522
Kayla: We'll talk about what curse is in a little bit.

932
01:42:53,586 --> 01:42:59,930
Chris: Okay. And as I go the other direction, there is Kate, who appears to be like a unicorn with two horns.

933
01:42:59,970 --> 01:43:11,106
Kayla: She is a. Oh, Quanri told me what she is, but she's basically a, like. I think it's an east asian cryptid who's, like, kind of like a lizard horse type thing.

934
01:43:11,218 --> 01:43:11,978
Chris: Holy crap.

935
01:43:12,034 --> 01:43:13,282
Kayla: I forget what they're called.

936
01:43:13,466 --> 01:43:24,554
Chris: Okay, and then there's the one I was talking about. Wren is like, this little boy. He looks exactly like. You know what he looks like? He looks like, stitch from lilo and stitch.

937
01:43:24,602 --> 01:43:25,786
Kayla: Oh, he does look similar to stitch.

938
01:43:25,858 --> 01:43:41,978
Chris: But if instead, he was, like, gray instead of blue and then had gemstones for eyes instead. Then there's Kaeda, who is like, a little gnome wearing, like, a red riding hood cloak. And I believe he's standing on Donald Trump's toupee.

939
01:43:42,074 --> 01:43:44,386
Kayla: No, he's sitting on, like, a cloud or something.

940
01:43:44,578 --> 01:44:06,314
Chris: Oh, it's like a yellow cloud. And then there's Ivan, who is. It's a floating eye, possibly a beholder. I don't know. What's a beholder, actually, that's specific to dungeons and dragons, so that might not be something she's into, but I don't know. Beholder is like an eyeball. It's like a floating eyeball with other floating eyeball stocks coming out of it. Oh, it's pretty gross.

941
01:44:06,402 --> 01:44:08,390
Kayla: Which is why Ivan looks like.

942
01:44:08,730 --> 01:44:10,194
Chris: That's probably not it.

943
01:44:10,242 --> 01:44:11,874
Kayla: Yeah, Ivan looks nice.

944
01:44:12,042 --> 01:44:13,210
Chris: Well, he's just an eyeball.

945
01:44:13,330 --> 01:44:14,002
Kayla: Well, he's.

946
01:44:14,106 --> 01:44:18,708
Chris: Yeah, I wouldn't say he looks nice or bad. He's. He's very neutral as an eyeball.

947
01:44:18,764 --> 01:44:19,908
Kayla: We'll talk more about Ivan.

948
01:44:20,004 --> 01:44:22,780
Chris: Okay, well, that is. That's quite the menagerie.

949
01:44:22,860 --> 01:44:24,876
Kayla: It looks like a fun time, frankly.

950
01:44:25,028 --> 01:44:31,276
Chris: So that's eight. So with. With her own personality, nine. Couldn't she. She could field her own baseball team, right?

951
01:44:31,468 --> 01:45:11,526
Kayla: Yeah, maybe they do. We don't know. But even though there are eight head mates, and they're like a family. No one else in Quanri's irl life knows about her tulpas, even though her irl life, her real. Her physical life. Yeah. So no one in. Almost no one else in Quanri's life, physical life, knows about her tulpas, even though they've been. Yeah, even though they've been extremely helpful to her. They've been like a family. And she actually described to me a couple ways that they help, quote, I do get stressed a lot as a result, and I'm not exactly a fan of change. Even if something changes in my routine, I panic. So how do my tulpas help me with this?

952
01:45:11,678 --> 01:45:28,942
Kayla: For example, if my mom calls me and asks me to go down to the river for a picnic, usually I think of the things I do in that time and worry like crazy. I might not be able to get to do those things. Don't, like, if she wants to, you know, go on YouTube or play video games to have those plans change at the last minute to, like, go do something fun with her if she was.

953
01:45:28,966 --> 01:45:33,056
Chris: Planning on X and then something y happens, that's makes it so she can't do X.

954
01:45:33,088 --> 01:45:37,888
Kayla: So even if she wants to go do X, she's, like, stressed out that. The fact that she can't do Y now.

955
01:45:38,024 --> 01:45:41,096
Chris: Right. Yeah, I feel that can be stressful.

956
01:45:41,128 --> 01:45:57,598
Kayla: Right. So she starts to worry and panic, and those are the moments where Jack is usually there and tells me something like, everything is going to be okay. You'll live. You'll survive this outing. You might have shorter time for gaming, but you can do that once you get back. It's not the end of the world if you don't get a few hours to watch Netflix and YouTube.

957
01:45:57,744 --> 01:46:34,734
Chris: So that's really interesting because I feel like we all sort of have conversations in our head all the time. Like, I certainly do. Right, right. Like, I talk to myself in ways that are like that. Maybe not necessarily about that specific scenario of, you know, going to a picnic instead of playing video games, but. But that type of thing. Right? Like, sometimes part of my brain will talk to the other part of my brain and say, like, you know what, dude? Like, worry about this. This is fine because of XYZ or, like, give yourself pep talks or. That feels pretty normal. It's. The interesting part is that it's, like, personified.

958
01:46:34,862 --> 01:46:45,070
Kayla: Well, I think if you maybe don't have that natural inclination to kind of have those conversations, here's a way to kind of manufacture that for yourself.

959
01:46:45,190 --> 01:47:05,200
Chris: It's interesting because it's like, it almost feels to me that almost feels harder because you have to do the imagination bit. But to someone like Quanri, it feels probably easier because the imagination bit is the easy part and the execution of that conversation is the hard part.

960
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:05,744
Kayla: Right, right.

961
01:47:05,792 --> 01:47:07,144
Chris: That's really interesting.

962
01:47:07,312 --> 01:47:38,050
Kayla: And she says, so Jack pretty much instantly calms me down. Sometimes. A few of my tulpas might, or a few of my top a, I don't know, might work together to help calm me down. And as a result, I'm able to go on an outing with my mom, and they usually repeat and repeat that I'm going to be okay. And again, that's also like a really big, like, you learn how to do that in therapy. You know, like, you learn how to self coach, and you learn how to, like, problem solve and troubleshoot and address, like, cognitive distortions and things like that. And that feels similar to me here as well.

963
01:47:38,170 --> 01:47:46,718
Chris: Yeah. When I had, I can get some claustrophobia depending on the situation. I totally could have used the tulpa when I was getting my MRI.

964
01:47:46,814 --> 01:47:59,690
Kayla: Yeah, I know. It would have been very helpful, both of us. But according to Quanri, her tulpa can get very specialized when it comes to the kind of help that she needs. So maybe you could have specialized at Tulpa specifically for that.

965
01:47:59,990 --> 01:48:04,206
Chris: Yeah, I need a claustrophobia. Claustroplia.

966
01:48:04,278 --> 01:48:33,584
Kayla: Claustropia. One of the ways that Quanrie's tulpas has actually specialized is like, Kate is very emotive. And when I'm listening to conversations, Kate the unicorn. Kate is the unicorn. Yeah. And when I'm listening to conversations, I'm often not sure how to react or what to say. Kate's reactions are so natural. By watching Kate, I have an idea of how to respond to certain situations. So if someone is talking about something sad, Kate might cry and she'll say, that's so sad. So in return, I'll look at the person and say, that's so sad.

967
01:48:33,672 --> 01:48:39,880
Chris: It's like she's accessing something she wouldn't be able to otherwise access via these Personas in her head.

968
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:40,500
Kayla: Right.

969
01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:45,184
Chris: Like, by personifying it, she's, like, able to make that connection.

970
01:48:45,272 --> 01:48:45,904
Kayla: Right.

971
01:48:46,072 --> 01:48:47,392
Chris: That is so interesting.

972
01:48:47,456 --> 01:48:56,888
Kayla: I loved that part. That was so cool to, like, be able to kind of figure out that piece that you might not have such easy access to by. Because.

973
01:48:56,944 --> 01:48:57,184
Chris: Right.

974
01:48:57,232 --> 01:48:59,168
Kayla: But we as fascinating about it is.

975
01:48:59,184 --> 01:49:00,330
Chris: That it still there.

976
01:49:00,450 --> 01:49:01,234
Kayla: Right, right.

977
01:49:01,282 --> 01:49:20,034
Chris: It's in. It's still in her head somewhere because I don't know if I knew that before, like, if I would have, well, that, like, that. The way of processing that emotion and then showing it to someone, like, quandary with high functioning autism, I had no idea. Like, I don't know how the brain works, really.

978
01:49:20,082 --> 01:49:20,530
Kayla: Right.

979
01:49:20,650 --> 01:49:41,036
Chris: And I don't know how somebody with autism's brain works, but I maybe I would have guessed that, like, oh, yeah, they just, you know, they don't. That bit where they know how to, you know, cry at a sad piece of news just isn't there. But this tells me that it is there. It's just hard to access. That's really interesting to me.

980
01:49:41,068 --> 01:50:11,750
Kayla: It's. It's not necessarily something that was there and just needed to be accessed differently. I think that this feels different than just, this doesn't feel like I'm just unlocking something. This feels like I'm creating something. Something. And that's what I thought was really cool here, was that it was like recreating that process that we do as humans, that we model other humans. It was like recreating that process in a way that was, like, actually helpful to this person. And then she even talks about how her tulpas have helped her overcome specifically anxiety in some very serious ways.

981
01:50:11,870 --> 01:50:12,494
Chris: Interesting.

982
01:50:12,582 --> 01:50:47,400
Kayla: So, quote, before I got my head mates, I wasn't really comfortable with public transportation. In order to get to my course or school class, my mom had to take me there on the bus again and again to show me and ingrain in me that it was okay and safe. I would never have been able to use public transportation to go anywhere but my course. Now, Jack, my head mate, is very brave and protective. Because of Jack, I stopped feeling scared because I knew he was with me. As a result, I could do more on my own. So she's saying, before she had her tulpas, in order to, like, just be able to take the bus to school, she would need to have her mom show her over and over and, like, reiterate, okay, you're safe. It's okay, you're safe.

983
01:50:47,440 --> 01:50:57,496
Kayla: And, like, that's the only place that she'd be able to take public transportation. And now, because she feels like, oh, I always have my friend with me that, like, level of anxiety is gone.

984
01:50:57,648 --> 01:51:10,376
Chris: It's really interesting because it seems like having tulpas can also, like, amp up other emotions. Maybe that you might have or maybe amp them down. I was thinking of courage, but maybe it's amping down the anxiety.

985
01:51:10,488 --> 01:51:12,230
Kayla: Right, right. I could be a little both.

986
01:51:12,270 --> 01:51:12,822
Chris: Maybe a little bit of both.

987
01:51:12,846 --> 01:51:13,774
Kayla: Seems like it's both.

988
01:51:13,902 --> 01:51:14,446
Chris: Yeah.

989
01:51:14,558 --> 01:51:20,382
Kayla: Like, having the courage of the tulpa helps keep the anxiety at bay. I thought that was cool.

990
01:51:20,486 --> 01:51:22,046
Chris: That is. All of this is cool.

991
01:51:22,118 --> 01:51:35,342
Kayla: Quanri gave one last example of how having a tulpa benefited her that I found particularly meaningful and important. And, you know, we talked about the. Her tulpas up front. Her, like the picture. And then there was curse, who was the little black dragon. Right. The, like, not Jack, the little cutesy one.

992
01:51:35,366 --> 01:51:37,284
Chris: Kind of like cartoony cutesy one. Yeah.

993
01:51:37,422 --> 01:51:48,856
Kayla: So curse that form, that little black, cartoony dragon form is actually a neopet that is specifically like a shadow dragon. Neopet.

994
01:51:48,968 --> 01:51:50,232
Chris: Okay, what's a neopet again?

995
01:51:50,296 --> 01:52:00,072
Kayla: So Neopets was an early, I think it was like a late nineties, early two thousands, kind of like web based Internet game. And it was.

996
01:52:00,216 --> 01:52:01,312
Chris: Is it like Pokemon?

997
01:52:01,416 --> 01:52:24,266
Kayla: It's not. It's less like Pokemon, at least in my recollection. Less like Pokemon? More like. It's like a crossing Pokemon and harvest moons. It's a cross between, like, having little critters that are your friends and raising them and teaching them and utilizing them for things, and also kind of just like, doing inventory management and hanging out with your little friends and, like, doing fun things with them and just, like, kind of managing and that kind of thing.

998
01:52:24,298 --> 01:52:26,394
Chris: So it's having, like, virtual pets kind of online.

999
01:52:26,482 --> 01:52:35,388
Kayla: Yeah. With, like, a somewhat gamified system. And there was also a social aspect to it. Like, you could interact with other neopet people. It was pretty fun. Obviously, I played it.

1000
01:52:35,564 --> 01:52:36,412
Chris: Yeah, sounds like it.

1001
01:52:36,436 --> 01:52:37,196
Kayla: I love neopets.

1002
01:52:37,268 --> 01:52:40,320
Chris: Was it an mmo? Was it, like, multiplayer online, maybe?

1003
01:52:41,948 --> 01:52:43,956
Kayla: I think it was probably, like, proto that.

1004
01:52:44,108 --> 01:52:44,588
Chris: Okay.

1005
01:52:44,644 --> 01:53:14,254
Kayla: Yeah. So according to Quanri, quote, curse was not always the shadow dragon he is now. He used to be a very plain bat and was thrown out and left to rot where all unwanted neopets go. That was a thing. If you, like, didn't want your neopet, you can, like, throw it. Body pile, basically. Good God. What? Yeah. How? Okay, then you can adopt them. I think I adopted a few from the body pile. Yeah. It wasn't really a body pile, but it was like, kind of. It didn't look like a body pile.

1006
01:53:14,382 --> 01:53:15,942
Chris: Was it bloody? Were they twitching?

1007
01:53:16,006 --> 01:53:21,238
Kayla: Yeah, it was pretty. Pretty horrific. No, it was just like a place where the unwanted neopets went.

1008
01:53:21,414 --> 01:53:30,656
Chris: That's, like, not that much better. Okay, so instead of a. A horrific pile of bodies, it was more of an oobleet for neopets. Okay, well, that's so much better.

1009
01:53:30,768 --> 01:53:41,248
Kayla: So I wasn't the person who named him. But I did find him and adopt him. My physical sister then offered to zap just one of my neopets. And zapping is when you can, like, make a neopet species into another neopet species.

1010
01:53:41,304 --> 01:53:42,536
Chris: Oh, it's like evolution.

1011
01:53:42,648 --> 01:53:48,408
Kayla: Yes, but it's like evolution that they wouldn't normally do, because you're making it like you're taking a mouse and turning it into a cat.

1012
01:53:48,504 --> 01:53:53,228
Chris: Oh, okay. Okay. So it's not like a normal chain. It's like a total transformation.

1013
01:53:53,284 --> 01:54:33,050
Kayla: Correct. On first zap, curse became the shadow dragon he is now, thanks to my sister. So, in a sense, my sister gave curse his form. A year later, my sister got sick with anorexia nervosa, which is a particularly deadly thing. Me and the family were worried and scared that she might die. I wanted to do something. I wanted to help. But this type of issue my sister had affects the mind as well as physically. So if I said something like, you're looking nice, she'd take that to mean something negative and could lose more weight as a result. So I just couldn't say anything. All I could really do was watch her get worse and visit her during the many times she had to stay at the hospital. The story gets better, okay? I promise. Yeah, the story gets much better. Has a happy ending.

1014
01:54:33,470 --> 01:54:42,788
Kayla: But then, as always, every so often, I got an urge to go back to neopets and a desire to re experience old memories. I've been there. I definitely left neopets for a while, and I was like, oh, I want to go back.

1015
01:54:42,934 --> 01:54:46,264
Chris: I didn't even know you played neopets. I mean, I'd heard of it, but I had no idea.

1016
01:54:46,312 --> 01:55:20,578
Kayla: Yeah, I was a kid when I did. So I went back, and suddenly, I felt calm about the whole situation with my sister, and I realized that the reason why was because of cursed and my sister's involvement with him. I felt calm because I felt a sense of hope for my sister. Cursed was one of the last acts of kindness my sister did for me before everything went to hell for her. And as a result of her illness, my sister couldn't be kind. So, cursed might be based from a stupid pixel from a pretty much dead game, but that pixel kept hope alive when there was none, which makes curse very special. And my sister hasn't been to hospital in years, and she's doing great now, when times are at their darkest, curse shines.

1017
01:55:20,754 --> 01:55:21,378
Chris: That's great.

1018
01:55:21,434 --> 01:55:39,516
Kayla: I know. I love that story so much. I mean, obviously, it's terrible when anyone gets stricken with any mental illness, and particularly eating disorders are horrible. And it's also nice that there was a turn here and there was at least this, like, one little thread of hope for quanri in those moments.

1019
01:55:39,588 --> 01:55:40,060
Chris: Right.

1020
01:55:40,180 --> 01:55:49,148
Kayla: And it makes curse her tulpa now, who is, like, based on this character, it makes curse that much more special in that way and that much more connected to her physical sister.

1021
01:55:49,324 --> 01:55:50,280
Chris: Interesting.

1022
01:55:50,980 --> 01:55:57,516
Kayla: So we've talked about a host for a bit now. Do you wanna hear from some tulpas themselves?

1023
01:55:57,668 --> 01:55:59,780
Chris: Oh, hell yeah. This is what I'm here for.

1024
01:55:59,820 --> 01:56:24,830
Kayla: Yeah. I mostly asked tulpas about what it felt like to be created, what they do when their host is busy and not interacting with them, things like that. So Quanrie has multiple tulpas like we talked about. We'll go through some of their answers on these questions. I'll let you know when we move away from Quanri's tulpas. So from what does my face look like? You look very excited. I remember what Kate is. Kate is a. Kieran. K I r. I know.

1025
01:56:24,870 --> 01:56:25,166
Chris: Kieran.

1026
01:56:25,198 --> 01:56:25,454
Kayla: Yes.

1027
01:56:25,502 --> 01:56:37,094
Chris: Yeah. A, that's a beer. And b, it was an esper and final fantasy. Okay. Wow. Okay. We're just. We're getting. We're getting so specific. Like, there's like, half of our audience is not gonna understand this whole episode.

1028
01:56:37,142 --> 01:56:41,958
Kayla: Kiran is an east asian mythical creature that I believe is like part horse, part dragon.

1029
01:56:42,014 --> 01:56:43,430
Chris: Something like that. Yeah.

1030
01:56:43,510 --> 01:56:44,950
Kayla: So Kate's a Kirin doesn't have, like.

1031
01:56:44,990 --> 01:56:46,198
Chris: Healing properties or something?

1032
01:56:46,254 --> 01:56:46,766
Kayla: I don't know.

1033
01:56:46,838 --> 01:56:48,654
Chris: Well, it did in Final Fantasy. That's all I'm saying.

1034
01:56:48,742 --> 01:56:49,326
Kayla: Okay.

1035
01:56:49,438 --> 01:56:50,490
Chris: It was a healing.

1036
01:56:51,390 --> 01:57:03,670
Kayla: Oh. Ps. It's important to note that generally when tulpas are typing through their hosts, the text is, like, bracketed or it's like it's differentiated in some way so that, you know, it's from the tulpa.

1037
01:57:03,710 --> 01:57:12,766
Chris: Do all of her tulpas know English? Like, do they generally know the language that the host knows or do? Sometimes tulpas can't speak.

1038
01:57:12,838 --> 01:57:15,254
Kayla: I don't know about that. But with Quanri, all of her tulpas.

1039
01:57:15,342 --> 01:57:17,890
Chris: All of her tulpas can communicate in English? Yes.

1040
01:57:18,310 --> 01:57:54,770
Kayla: So I'm probably more of an accidental tulpa. I heard that our host was wanting something which could help end a habit. Originally, that was why it was created. Because she had seen something on YouTube and thought if she followed similar steps, she'd have the miracle cure she'd been looking for. For this habit that she didn't disclose, she spent ages looking for a name and decided on Kate, since that name meant pure. She then went into a forest in her wonderland to try and think of a form to begin with, I remember nothing. But then I heard footsteps or became aware of someone coming closer. I decided to greet this someone and said hello. She said, I looked at a deer. So I guess my first form was a deer.

1041
01:57:54,930 --> 01:58:16,528
Kayla: After a few weeks, she learned about Kiran and asked me if I wanted to be one, which I happily obliged, since Kirin are pure creatures, so the form suited me. Originally, the only part of my personality were two words, and that was pure and innocent. But as time progressed, my personality gained more to it. I didn't end up helping her with her habit. She was trying to break. But she really likes me despite that. Okay.

1042
01:58:16,624 --> 01:58:19,760
Chris: Holy shit. It's just. It's just crazy.

1043
01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:21,980
Kayla: The process of, like, becoming conscious.

1044
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:32,368
Chris: Oh, man. Yeah. It's like this personality, like, recalling. It's. It's like earliest moments, right.

1045
01:58:32,504 --> 01:58:35,380
Kayla: Which is something that, like, you and I can't really do because.

1046
01:58:35,880 --> 01:58:40,024
Chris: Yeah, no. No human or host can because of childhood amnesia.

1047
01:58:40,072 --> 01:58:40,544
Kayla: Right.

1048
01:58:40,672 --> 01:58:51,580
Chris: You don't remember things from, you know, whatever age right before whatever age. But I guess that doesn't apply when you're to these newly created personality.

1049
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:53,704
Kayla: Right.

1050
01:58:53,792 --> 01:58:56,640
Chris: People. Wow. Yeah, man.

1051
01:58:56,800 --> 01:58:57,960
Kayla: So that is.

1052
01:58:58,000 --> 01:58:58,240
Chris: Wow.

1053
01:58:58,280 --> 01:59:07,976
Kayla: That was pretty cool. I like. And I like the concept of an accidental tulpa that she was trying to, like, create this visualization to help end whatever habit she was trying to break. And that ended up having tulpa for her.

1054
01:59:08,008 --> 01:59:09,220
Chris: Now I have a personality.

1055
01:59:10,010 --> 01:59:25,270
Kayla: So another tulpa wanted to answer the question. This is from Kaeda. Kaede says Kaeda was the little gnomey guy floating in a cloud. I like Kaeda's origin story very much so. From Kaeda. Hi. So I'm more like a soul bond. I will explain soul bonds later.

1056
01:59:25,610 --> 01:59:26,178
Chris: Okay.

1057
01:59:26,234 --> 01:59:29,270
Kayla: Just. They're basically tulpas.

1058
01:59:30,130 --> 01:59:30,602
Chris: Got it.

1059
01:59:30,626 --> 01:59:33,314
Kayla: Just a little bit of a different flavor. We'll talk about it later.

1060
01:59:33,402 --> 01:59:35,162
Chris: It's like vanilla versus chocolate tulpa.

1061
01:59:35,186 --> 01:59:51,000
Kayla: Yes, yes. Okay, so I'll try to tell what my experience felt like. First. I am based from a character from the Powerpuff girls and kind of specifically from an episode that was banned in the US. It's called see me, feel me, know me, but it's spelled n g o m e y. I forget.

1062
01:59:51,040 --> 01:59:56,360
Chris: Powerpuff Girls is a cartoon, by the way. It was just like three girl superhero thingies.

1063
01:59:56,440 --> 02:00:37,176
Kayla: I forget why the episode was banned, but it was banned. So Kwameri was watching this, was. Was watching these episodes on YouTube. I like, just popped up because it's not banned on YouTube. So she was kind of, like, watching this and watching this and got really excited about this episode. Really liked this episode. She couldn't stop watching a certain clip from the episode. Quote, she'd probably watch it at least once a week. Eventually she wondered if she should make me a head mate and was thinking about it a lot. So she brought it to Reddit and asked if she should because everyone was hesitant. For a moment she thought maybe not. And in that moment, I popped into existence almost like a wall. That's how it felt for her. Like, literally, Kaido was just like, you're not gonna make me a tulpa.

1064
02:00:37,208 --> 02:00:38,048
Kayla: Yes, you are.

1065
02:00:38,184 --> 02:00:39,380
Chris: A walk in.

1066
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:41,992
Kayla: It's like when the tulpa just walks.

1067
02:00:42,016 --> 02:00:45,584
Chris: In, just suddenly is, okay.

1068
02:00:45,632 --> 02:00:49,912
Kayla: So in the episode, how do I just, how do I explain this?

1069
02:00:49,976 --> 02:00:51,272
Chris: The episode of the cartoon.

1070
02:00:51,296 --> 02:00:57,692
Kayla: So in the episode of the cartoon, the character that kite is based on gets pushed off a cliff.

1071
02:00:57,776 --> 02:00:59,780
Chris: So Quanrie the gnome gets pushed off a cliff.

1072
02:00:59,820 --> 02:01:07,980
Kayla: Quanri's watching this episode. The gnome gets pushed off the cliff, disappears from the episode, and that's when Kaeda pops into her mind.

1073
02:01:08,100 --> 02:01:10,916
Chris: So it's like he got pushed out of the tv and into her brain.

1074
02:01:10,988 --> 02:01:24,566
Kayla: Yes. What Kaeda has to say about Powerpuff girls is, if anyone asks, I am not a Powerpuff girls fan. Yes. My background is from there, and I know I'm not exactly that gnome, but I know what those three girls did to me. The memory is as clear as day, and I'm not forgetting anytime soon.

1075
02:01:24,668 --> 02:01:30,922
Chris: God. So this personality in Quanri's head is, like, upset that he got pushed off a cliff?

1076
02:01:30,986 --> 02:01:31,630
Kayla: Yes.

1077
02:01:32,370 --> 02:01:33,250
Chris: Oh, no.

1078
02:01:33,370 --> 02:01:42,066
Kayla: Yeah. But he really likes being in the Wonderland. He prefers being in the Wonderland. He prefers that, like, sure, people there are peaceful and can meditate, and then you can also just, like, fly around.

1079
02:01:42,098 --> 02:01:46,266
Chris: Sounds like he's in a good place, but just. It's just. Yeah, it's weird.

1080
02:01:46,418 --> 02:01:49,546
Kayla: Yeah. Kinda had a little bit of a rough start.

1081
02:01:49,658 --> 02:01:50,350
Chris: Yeah.

1082
02:01:50,690 --> 02:02:06,642
Kayla: So those are two origin stories from some of Quanri's tulpas. Now, do you remember how we talked a bit about graps 224? He was another tulpamancer that we talked to. He was the one who was like, I made my tulpa out of spite and mockery. He was the kind of the more skeptical.

1083
02:02:06,746 --> 02:02:15,482
Chris: Oh. He was the one that was saying, like, I. And he was one of the ones that was like, we should try to get taken more seriously. And sometimes it's a little too weird.

1084
02:02:15,586 --> 02:02:55,030
Kayla: Yep. Okay, I remember that guy that was grabs. So graps Tulpa is named Vera. And she had this to say about her own creation. It's hard to describe. I have a few memories of my own creation. I know I did things prior to some of my earliest memories of just being around, but it's a lot more like I was already there when I arrived. My earliest memories feel more like dreams. So if you'll remember, when I talked to graps about creating Vera Hedeh, he says like, oh, I think that I was kind of like deluding myself at first. And, like, was kind of making up what Vera was saying before she actually came into her own. So for him, he's like, I might have just kind of been like, half pretending.

1085
02:02:55,070 --> 02:03:00,222
Kayla: And for her it's like, yeah, some of my earliest stuff, I just kind of feel like dreams. It doesn't really feel like something I actually did.

1086
02:03:00,406 --> 02:03:01,646
Chris: Oh, interesting.

1087
02:03:01,758 --> 02:03:02,862
Kayla: I thought that was really cool.

1088
02:03:02,926 --> 02:03:03,570
Chris: Yeah.

1089
02:03:04,110 --> 02:03:40,316
Kayla: To describe herself, she says I'm human mostly. Some tuppers. Her word for tulpas. Some tuppers have non human forms. I have a cat like form as well, but G doesn't like it. She calls graps G. Usually I've got long, straight silver hair, but sometimes I make it short and bobbed. Cause why not, right? My favorite outfit is ankle high black high heeled boots, a red knee length skirt, a puffy white shirt with short sleeves. And a matching red vest to put on top. Very stylish. That was from me. I'm usually fairly tall, I think. And thin. I blush easily and have, quote, piercing emerald green eyes. Sounds like a catch.

1090
02:03:40,468 --> 02:03:40,916
Chris: Yeah.

1091
02:03:40,988 --> 02:03:43,300
Kayla: Personality wise, I'm kind and very.

1092
02:03:43,380 --> 02:03:48,684
Chris: Do people make ugly tulpas? Cause, like, so far they've all seemed like, just like, beautiful. Fantastic.

1093
02:03:48,732 --> 02:03:51,292
Kayla: Well, there's no such thing as ugly. First of all.

1094
02:03:51,476 --> 02:03:53,080
Chris: Right, okay, fair.

1095
02:03:53,420 --> 02:04:03,206
Kayla: Second, well, remember what we talked about last time? How, like, you can't force a tulpa to look or do whatever you want. So the tulpas are kind of at least have a hand in choosing their own form. Forms.

1096
02:04:03,358 --> 02:04:07,838
Chris: I guess if I had a hand in choosing my form, I too would probably have long, silver hair.

1097
02:04:07,894 --> 02:04:27,438
Kayla: Yeah, same. Personality wise, I'm kind and very emotionally charged. I don't like confrontation and don't like to see fighting. I've described as bubbly before, which is just about perfect. I have a form. I know it's one that exists in the mind space. Only my physical form is obviously the same as G's. We can't switch yet, but I'm working on it.

1098
02:04:27,534 --> 02:04:30,380
Chris: Wait, if they can't switch, then how is she talking to you?

1099
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:33,420
Kayla: She's telling greps, and he's typing.

1100
02:04:34,200 --> 02:04:36,232
Chris: So is that her taking control or.

1101
02:04:36,256 --> 02:04:51,960
Kayla: No, no. So those are, like, experiences of, like, being created and what you remember and what your form is like. Then I kind of wanted to learn more about, like, okay, well, what do you do when your host is busy? Like, what if you do. If your host is at school or at work or talking to somebody else?

1102
02:04:52,000 --> 02:04:53,080
Chris: Like, because they're always there.

1103
02:04:53,120 --> 02:05:16,142
Kayla: You said they're always there. So that's what my question was. I was like, what do they. What is that like? Like, is it just non stop talking 24/7 like, how does that get balanced? So I wanted to ask the tulpas this Quanrie's tulpa. Jack said that when Quanri's preoccupied with other things, Jack generally observes or listens. Quote, I never know when my host might worry about something and get all stressed out, and I intend to help her so he can.

1104
02:05:16,166 --> 02:05:18,094
Chris: So he's, like, focused on her all the time.

1105
02:05:18,142 --> 02:05:19,250
Kayla: He's very vigilant.

1106
02:05:19,590 --> 02:05:21,664
Chris: He doesn't like. I don't know.

1107
02:05:21,712 --> 02:05:24,536
Kayla: Well, he does take. He does take time for himself when.

1108
02:05:24,608 --> 02:05:25,296
Chris: Okay, okay.

1109
02:05:25,328 --> 02:05:58,938
Kayla: When he's not needed. Like, he knows that he's not gonna be needed. He will practice using his sword or his fire powers, or he'll go what's called inactive. Quote, sometimes when she's doing things, we might hang out together or do stuff together. That's one of our interests. But usually, especially if what your host is doing requires a lot of brain power, or she's talking to a friend in the physical world or whatever, we're likely to go inactive and make things easier for her. And by non active, we pretty much stop what we're doing and go into a state which uses less brain function. So some of us might sleep or lie down or sit down and get in a comfortable position while non active, it means we can't really talk to each other.

1110
02:05:59,074 --> 02:06:26,482
Kayla: I find, though, that while I'm non active, I can still hear what our host hears and see what she sees. So even though I'm not active, I'm still able to have awareness of what's going on, and I'm able to become active the moment I need to. I'm not sure everyone else in the system can do that, though, and have the same awareness while not active. So, basically, if she's kind of, you know, busy, like reading or doing school or something. The tulpas can kind of hang out and do things together. But if she is doing something that requires a lot of brain power, they're like, okay, we'll give you a break, and just kind of, like, take a nap.

1111
02:06:26,546 --> 02:06:30,578
Chris: Like, seed that mental focus or whatever.

1112
02:06:30,674 --> 02:07:10,704
Kayla: It's like the energy gets directed away into something in physical world. So even though Jack often is, you know, trying to be focused. Another one of Quanrie's tulpas, kaede, the gnome from Powerpuff girls. He likes to sing heavy metal or just kind of fly around the wonderland. Ivan, the all seeing eye. Quanri tulpa. He likes to read, and he also likes to fly around some more. Tulpas of Quanri's curse, likes to edit music. Johnny likes to play basketball or tennis. Wren, the little, like, Johnny was the other. Johnny was the other winged guy. Wren was the little stitch guy. He likes to go caving. Kate the Kieran, likes to take walks. And windshot the werewolf likes to do yoga.

1113
02:07:10,872 --> 02:07:13,816
Chris: Judging from how they were all drawn, all of that makes total sense.

1114
02:07:13,848 --> 02:07:14,984
Kayla: Yeah. Oh, for sure.

1115
02:07:15,112 --> 02:07:20,072
Chris: Because the cave guy was, like, had gemstone eyes, and the yoga person, like, totally looked like a hippie.

1116
02:07:20,136 --> 02:07:42,914
Kayla: Yeah. Graps 220 four's tulpa vera. She likes to sleep or just kind of observe. Sometimes she'll comment on things, even if graps might not hear it. So it just kind of seems like tulpas in general are pretty chill. Like, play basketball or take a nap or just watch or, you know, they just seem like people you'd want to hang out with, you know, like, that's very chill.

1117
02:07:42,962 --> 02:07:46,962
Chris: As podcasters, editing is not chill, but freaking hard work.

1118
02:07:47,066 --> 02:07:52,550
Kayla: If I'm assuming curse is not on any sort of, like, timeline and can just kind of edit music at his leisure.

1119
02:07:52,970 --> 02:07:54,546
Chris: Oh, yeah, you're probably right.

1120
02:07:54,738 --> 02:08:22,506
Kayla: We could sit here for quite some time. Going through, we have been all of the answers I got from the tulpas and their hosts my various questions. But I figured it might be more economical to go ahead and compile the rest of the answers and stories I haven't been able to include here into an article that I can share, because I can't share every single story, and every single story is fascinating, and I know that folks are gonna be further interested, so look for the link in our show notes. It's gonna also be on our social media.

1121
02:08:22,578 --> 02:08:25,048
Chris: We can't do, like, an eight hour episode like Dan Carlin.

1122
02:08:25,154 --> 02:08:51,476
Kayla: We can, but this is already our second part of a two parter episode, so I kind of think that maybe we should give the people what they want and get to our conclusion. Is it a cult or just weird? So, in order to facilitate that process, I'm going to go ahead and I'll compile the rest of the answers so that our listeners can peruse at their leisure. And I also don't want to leave out anyone who was kind enough to answer me. And again, everyone's answers were very interesting.

1123
02:08:51,588 --> 02:08:59,660
Chris: Okay. Okay. And also, that leaves us with some content for the future. We can always do a future episode. We can revisit the Tulpa phenomenon.

1124
02:08:59,740 --> 02:09:04,940
Kayla: I'm leaving so much out, man. So there is material here for another two tulpa episodes.

1125
02:09:04,980 --> 02:09:12,364
Chris: We should just have a. And I know we say this like every other episode, but we should just start a splinter podcast about tulpas.

1126
02:09:12,452 --> 02:09:22,296
Kayla: We would need tulpas in order to. So they could do the work for the podcast. Yeah, I'm not ready. I cannot. I'm not ready to emotionally commit to a tulpa. Sorry.

1127
02:09:22,408 --> 02:09:24,456
Chris: Oh, yeah. I know. I can barely commit to you.

1128
02:09:24,488 --> 02:09:30,984
Kayla: I know. It's rough. So we've got two more sections to go through. One, I'm gonna call the tidbits.

1129
02:09:31,152 --> 02:09:33,072
Chris: Tidbits. Okay. The tuple bits.

1130
02:09:33,096 --> 02:09:39,200
Kayla: The tuple bits. And then after we're done with the tidbits, we'll wrap up with some bad news, I guess.

1131
02:09:39,280 --> 02:09:40,704
Chris: Yeah, I was promised some dirt.

1132
02:09:40,792 --> 02:09:42,008
Kayla: But first, tidbits.

1133
02:09:42,144 --> 02:09:42,744
Chris: Okay.

1134
02:09:42,832 --> 02:09:51,904
Kayla: While doing research, I always find out that there are just weird things that are difficult to weave into the overall story. And with tulpas, it was no different. So, here are the tidbits.

1135
02:09:52,032 --> 02:09:58,720
Chris: Okay. First, is this gonna be like. Oh, this should be, like, a thing. Now. You should call it the tidbits time. It's tidbits time on cult or just weird.

1136
02:09:58,800 --> 02:10:03,544
Kayla: So, first, to answer your question, can a tulpa have a tulpa?

1137
02:10:03,672 --> 02:10:04,656
Chris: Oh, my God. Yes.

1138
02:10:04,728 --> 02:10:32,268
Kayla: The answer is yes, but not the way you think. From my research, a tulpa can create another tulpa, but it's technically not their tulpa. It'll be another one of the host's tulpas. Tulpas generally don't have their. They don't have their own wonderlands, et cetera, so they can't make up, you know, their own mini tulpas that live in their heads, but they can create another tulpa in the hosts wonderland. So tulpas can basically create friends for themselves that will become another one of the hosts tulpas.

1139
02:10:32,364 --> 02:10:42,390
Chris: Got it. So, going with the metaphor of tulpas being like children. When we have kids, they'll actually just be our parents kids.

1140
02:10:43,130 --> 02:10:44,510
Kayla: Those creepy.

1141
02:10:46,250 --> 02:10:49,410
Chris: But that is the exact metaphor, isn't it?

1142
02:10:49,490 --> 02:10:50,458
Kayla: No, I don't think.

1143
02:10:50,514 --> 02:10:51,018
Chris: Yes, it is.

1144
02:10:51,034 --> 02:11:00,234
Kayla: I think that you're wrong, but I don't know how. Moving on. You did ask another question. You asked if there are tulpa manswers that are maybe not so nice to their tulpas.

1145
02:11:00,282 --> 02:11:14,862
Chris: Actually, wait, sorry, before we move on. So if a tulpa can create another tulpa, but then that tulpa is actually in the system of the original host, then I'm trying to figure out if I can make a pyramid scheme from this.

1146
02:11:14,886 --> 02:11:15,606
Kayla: You can't.

1147
02:11:15,798 --> 02:11:17,310
Chris: But it's still part of the downline.

1148
02:11:17,390 --> 02:11:18,382
Kayla: You can't.

1149
02:11:18,526 --> 02:11:21,542
Chris: So as long as it's unencumbered income.

1150
02:11:21,686 --> 02:11:25,410
Kayla: From the downline, tulpas don't have physical money.

1151
02:11:26,670 --> 02:11:29,646
Chris: Yeah, well, neither do most of the people that are involved in MLB.

1152
02:11:29,678 --> 02:11:31,890
Kayla: Tulpas can't take out a line of credit.

1153
02:11:32,070 --> 02:11:33,370
Chris: Oh, well, tulpas an issue.

1154
02:11:33,410 --> 02:11:35,922
Kayla: Can't write a check from their bank account, then.

1155
02:11:36,026 --> 02:11:36,794
Chris: I don't understand.

1156
02:11:36,842 --> 02:11:38,270
Kayla: It doesn't work.

1157
02:11:39,090 --> 02:11:41,746
Chris: I'm gonna make it work. No, I'm gonna make it work.

1158
02:11:41,938 --> 02:11:50,122
Kayla: I was gonna answer another one of your questions because you also asked if there were tulpamancers that were, like, not so nice to their tulpas. But I'm actually gonna not answer that right now. I'll answer it later.

1159
02:11:50,266 --> 02:11:55,850
Chris: Oh, you're like a wife tulpamancer that's not so nice to her tulpa husband.

1160
02:11:55,890 --> 02:11:59,108
Kayla: Tulpasbandhe. Did we already talk about Jeffrey Epstein?

1161
02:11:59,244 --> 02:11:59,700
Chris: Yes.

1162
02:11:59,780 --> 02:12:00,324
Kayla: Okay.

1163
02:12:00,412 --> 02:12:05,508
Chris: But I don't remember if you said, like, oh, we should. No, I think you said, let's talk about it now when we talked about it before.

1164
02:12:05,564 --> 02:12:08,556
Kayla: Are you sure? Should I just do it anyway? Should I just do the bit just in case?

1165
02:12:08,708 --> 02:12:09,948
Chris: Yeah, I guess. Then you can decide.

1166
02:12:10,044 --> 02:12:20,880
Kayla: Another tidbit. Did you know that some people on Twitter think that Jeffrey Epstein didn't actually die? The body in the news picture, people think he didn't actually die.

1167
02:12:21,980 --> 02:12:22,292
Chris: Yeah.

1168
02:12:22,316 --> 02:12:23,578
Kayla: Only human honors.

1169
02:12:23,724 --> 02:12:24,766
Chris: Well, yeah. Weirdos.

1170
02:12:24,838 --> 02:12:44,102
Kayla: Yeah, well, the weirdos, to the weirdos think that the body in the pictures was a tulpa he created and not actually his body, but, but it's like a more traditional physical Alexander David Neal Tulpa, like a body outside of your body.

1171
02:12:44,166 --> 02:12:45,862
Chris: So, but that. How do you.

1172
02:12:45,886 --> 02:12:47,246
Kayla: Or like an X Files tulpa.

1173
02:12:47,318 --> 02:12:48,126
Chris: How do you. How.

1174
02:12:48,238 --> 02:12:57,340
Kayla: It's magic. Like the Alexander David Neal version of Atulpa, where she was like, you can make full magic. Yeah. Or like the X Files or that episode of Adventure Time.

1175
02:12:57,800 --> 02:13:02,736
Chris: Right. Because these people are already weirdos because they think that Jeffrey Epstein's not dead and all that stuff. Okay.

1176
02:13:02,768 --> 02:13:07,296
Kayla: So there's, there was literally people talking about, like, Jeffrey Epstein. That was a tulpa.

1177
02:13:07,488 --> 02:13:10,568
Chris: That's, that's weird.

1178
02:13:10,624 --> 02:13:18,028
Kayla: Yeah. I also read a New York Times article titled conjuring up our own gods by TM Lermande, and she was basically.

1179
02:13:18,084 --> 02:13:19,172
Chris: Positing this great title.

1180
02:13:19,236 --> 02:13:40,684
Kayla: Yes. That human beings with supernatural or religious beliefs basically create the beings they pray to. Similar to the ways that tulpa mancers create tulpas. God is real because people who believe in him spend so much time thinking about him. Same goes for ghosts. Whatever you might believe in. And of course, multiple people in the tulpas community have asked, is God a tulpa? I'll link to those posts.

1181
02:13:40,772 --> 02:13:41,236
Chris: Really?

1182
02:13:41,348 --> 02:13:43,102
Kayla: Because the conversations are fascinating. Yes.

1183
02:13:43,166 --> 02:13:44,730
Chris: Yeah, that sounds fascinating.

1184
02:13:45,070 --> 02:13:49,690
Kayla: Similar to this, perhaps you've heard of something called the tulpa effect.

1185
02:13:50,070 --> 02:13:51,174
Chris: I have not.

1186
02:13:51,342 --> 02:14:02,410
Kayla: So while some people believe that God is real because he's a tulpa and we believed him into being real, some other people take this concept and apply it to Slenderman.

1187
02:14:03,030 --> 02:14:08,378
Chris: Oh, so they think that Slenderman's real because. But they don't mean physically real, right? Like, they mean like.

1188
02:14:08,454 --> 02:14:09,138
Kayla: Yes.

1189
02:14:09,314 --> 02:14:19,906
Chris: So there's people that think that, people that think about Slenderman have created a real Slenderman, like, in the real world physically or like just in their heads.

1190
02:14:19,978 --> 02:14:37,720
Kayla: So they're saying we've created Slenderman with our belief. We've created this physically monster out in the world, this physical cryptid. For anyone who doesn't know, Slenderman is a creepy cryptid that was basically created on the Internet. And he is very scared. I'm scared of Slenderman.

1191
02:14:37,760 --> 02:14:39,232
Chris: Right. He's just, he's like a, is he.

1192
02:14:39,256 --> 02:14:47,992
Kayla: Just like a, he's tall and impossibly thin. He generally wears a suit. And he has, like, a blank, featureless face. And he's fucking scary. And the pictures that he gets, like.

1193
02:14:48,016 --> 02:14:50,832
Chris: Photoshopped, sort of like in the creepy valley of, like, human.

1194
02:14:50,936 --> 02:15:18,098
Kayla: Well, and he's. So because I think the way Slender man started, or at least the earliest slender man thing I saw was like these, like, creepy photos from, like, the sick. Like, oh, I found these photos in my grandma's attic and they're like, from the seventies or whatever and like, fun family having a fun time at the park, and then you see in the background there's like, this impossibly tall, thin man in a suit standing there watching with a featureless face. And, like, it's. At least at the time, it was very good photoshop. So I'm scared of Slender man.

1195
02:15:18,194 --> 02:15:18,666
Chris: Okay.

1196
02:15:18,738 --> 02:15:19,994
Kayla: Slender man scares me.

1197
02:15:20,082 --> 02:15:24,018
Chris: Right. And so these people think that they've manifested Slenderman in existence by.

1198
02:15:24,074 --> 02:15:29,092
Kayla: Slenderman exists because we believed in him. Okay, that's theory.

1199
02:15:29,156 --> 02:15:29,868
Chris: But physically.

1200
02:15:29,964 --> 02:15:30,460
Kayla: Physically?

1201
02:15:30,540 --> 02:15:31,108
Chris: Yeah.

1202
02:15:31,244 --> 02:15:38,916
Kayla: That's theory that some people believe to or subscribe to in terms of why Slenderman exists.

1203
02:15:39,028 --> 02:15:41,760
Chris: Got it. Well, so he doesn't.

1204
02:15:42,100 --> 02:15:43,148
Kayla: I don't know, man.

1205
02:15:43,284 --> 02:15:44,092
Chris: Yeah.

1206
02:15:44,276 --> 02:15:53,200
Kayla: Apparently the Tulpa effect is one of the more popular theories on how Slender man came to be. According to the Slender man wiki.

1207
02:15:54,630 --> 02:16:07,182
Chris: Sure. Like that. But that's true for, like, anything that you, like, believe in hard. I don't think that it's physical again, but, like, isn't that just saying, like, we, you know, people believe in this thing, so now it's a thing that people believe in. Is that kind of. That's saying.

1208
02:16:07,246 --> 02:16:18,582
Kayla: Yeah, but also the slender man will get you. So according to the Slenderman Wiki quote, the Tulpa effect is the name given to the unintentional creation of a tulpa based on collective belief of a being with similar traits.

1209
02:16:18,726 --> 02:16:19,222
Chris: Oh, I see.

1210
02:16:19,246 --> 02:16:57,178
Kayla: Apparently. Okay. This theory popped up on a forum in 2009. If I remember, 2009 was the year when Tulpas first started, like, really being talked about online, or at least in the mainstream. Yeah, that's when it first started popping up on four chan. So at first, this theory first showed up in 2009 as an explanation for Slender man's existence. A bunch of people learned about him, got scared of him, believed in him, and now he exists. Some people believe that the Tulpa effect may have serious real life repercussions with the creation of a real slender man. So literally, some people are like, haha, this is fun. And then there's truly people who are like, no, we fucking did this. And it reminds me of the X Files episodes that I watched.

1211
02:16:57,353 --> 02:16:59,281
Chris: Is that what Roko's basilisk is?

1212
02:16:59,425 --> 02:17:03,441
Kayla: I wasn't gonna put it in the script, but yeah, Roko's basilisk is definitely a tulpa.

1213
02:17:03,505 --> 02:17:04,809
Chris: Rocko's modern basilisk.

1214
02:17:04,850 --> 02:17:10,058
Kayla: To everyone listening, we are not going to explain Rocco's basilisk to you. I think that is the position of this podcast.

1215
02:17:10,193 --> 02:17:13,160
Chris: Are we even? Are we even? Are we gonna cut this part?

1216
02:17:13,620 --> 02:17:19,716
Kayla: I think we've mentioned Ronco's basilisk on the podcast before. But yes, we are not. We are pointedly not explaining it to you.

1217
02:17:19,748 --> 02:17:26,036
Chris: All of the people that joined our listenership from the Cicada episode are probably gonna get, like, super pissed that we're mentioning it.

1218
02:17:26,067 --> 02:17:29,531
Kayla: We definitely talked about Rocco's basilisk on the 3301 episode.

1219
02:17:29,556 --> 02:17:30,172
Chris: Yeah.

1220
02:17:30,356 --> 02:17:47,249
Kayla: Anyway, the Tulpa effect theory. That theory competes with another slender man theory, and that is called quantum theory. And that made me go, WTF? But we're gonna go ahead and save that for another episode because I think Slenderman's probably gonna be a topic.

1221
02:17:48,349 --> 02:17:49,388
Chris: It sounds like we're.

1222
02:17:49,468 --> 02:17:55,045
Kayla: Yeah, I mean, we have to, like, back away, but I just thought it was hilarious that there was a competing theory called quantum theory.

1223
02:17:55,156 --> 02:17:59,653
Chris: Don't worry, mister. What's his name? Slender is his last name. Man? Don't worry, mister man.

1224
02:17:59,700 --> 02:18:00,228
Kayla: Mister Man.

1225
02:18:00,308 --> 02:18:06,672
Chris: Slender man. Yeah, don't worry. We will do an episode about you, piggy. Can we interview him if we tulpa.

1226
02:18:06,696 --> 02:18:11,343
Kayla: Him into our room? I guess, yeah. I don't want to inter. Please. I'm so scared of Slenderman. I really am.

1227
02:18:11,392 --> 02:18:12,900
Chris: What if he's just misunderstood?

1228
02:18:13,639 --> 02:18:40,127
Kayla: I have read too many creepypastas. So piggybacking just off of all of this different thought form type discussion, I also learned in my research that there are many other kinds of thoughtforms other than tulpas. People sometimes have. What we learned about we. We heard the phrase soul bond when. Oh, yeah, Kaeda Quanri's tulpa kaida was talking.

1229
02:18:40,303 --> 02:18:42,339
Chris: Yeah. So he's the gnome one from.

1230
02:18:43,119 --> 02:19:06,730
Kayla: So soul bonds are a different kind of thought form. A soul bond, according to my research, is very similar to a tulpa, except it generally begins with a pre existing fictitious character. A soul bond is a. Is the relationship, or like, is the fictitious character that a person has a strong emotional reaction and attachment to. The soulbonder feels like they communicate with the character back and forth so deeply that it basically becomes a thought form.

1231
02:19:06,889 --> 02:19:11,722
Chris: Okay, so wasn't. Why is curse not a soul bond? Cause he's a neopet curse.

1232
02:19:11,745 --> 02:19:12,786
Kayla: It might be a soul bond.

1233
02:19:12,897 --> 02:19:13,433
Chris: Okay.

1234
02:19:13,522 --> 02:19:47,143
Kayla: She was very like tulpas might be this, might be that. But Kaede is, like, definitely a soul bond in that way. More of a soul bond. But again, soul Bond's not the only one. I also learned about something called servitors from wikipedia. Quote, within chaos magic, a servitor is a psychological complex deliberately created by the magician for a specific purpose that appears to operate autonomously from the magician's consciousness, that is, as if it were an independent, existing being. So servitors are basically low level tulpas with the magical basis that are created for specific rather than general purposes.

1235
02:19:47,271 --> 02:19:50,147
Chris: Okay, so it's like the brooms in Sorcerer's apprentice.

1236
02:19:50,223 --> 02:19:51,164
Kayla: Those are servitors.

1237
02:19:51,252 --> 02:19:52,036
Chris: Got it.

1238
02:19:52,188 --> 02:19:54,252
Kayla: And that's the perfect example.

1239
02:19:54,396 --> 02:19:56,820
Chris: I'm pretty perfect and give perfect examples.

1240
02:19:56,900 --> 02:20:00,720
Kayla: But there's one more that I wanted to mention. I also learned about egregores.

1241
02:20:01,140 --> 02:20:02,180
Chris: Egregors?

1242
02:20:02,260 --> 02:20:10,132
Kayla: Egregores are what? Quote, an occult concept representing a thought form or collective group mind. An autonomous collective.

1243
02:20:10,196 --> 02:20:11,388
Chris: What's a collective group mind?

1244
02:20:11,404 --> 02:20:33,192
Kayla: I'll tell you. An autonomous psychic entity made up of and influencing the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent non occult concepts of the corporation and the meme. I don't quite understand what an egregore is, but it is a different kind of thought form. So tulpas aren't.

1245
02:20:33,216 --> 02:20:39,040
Chris: It's like a thing that isn't real, but is because a bunch of people believe in it. So it kind of sounds like the God thing or the.

1246
02:20:39,160 --> 02:20:39,656
Kayla: There you go.

1247
02:20:39,688 --> 02:20:40,664
Chris: Or the slender man thing.

1248
02:20:40,712 --> 02:20:41,280
Kayla: Right.

1249
02:20:41,440 --> 02:20:43,200
Chris: Or corporation.

1250
02:20:43,280 --> 02:20:44,968
Kayla: Or a corporation or a meme.

1251
02:20:45,104 --> 02:20:49,728
Chris: Like, a corporation exists as, like, this thing.

1252
02:20:49,784 --> 02:20:51,496
Kayla: The gestalt only exists in your mind.

1253
02:20:51,608 --> 02:20:53,296
Chris: But it's in this. Well, in the collective mind.

1254
02:20:53,328 --> 02:20:54,320
Kayla: In a collective mind. Right.

1255
02:20:54,360 --> 02:20:56,432
Chris: Employees and customers and.

1256
02:20:56,496 --> 02:20:57,140
Kayla: Yeah.

1257
02:20:57,640 --> 02:20:59,704
Chris: Wow. Oh, that's fucking weird.

1258
02:20:59,752 --> 02:21:23,272
Kayla: Yeah. So then, to wrap up the tidbits, I wanted to mention, if we haven't already, that while little study has been done on tulpas, that's actually changing. In fact, Stanford is currently conducting a study, and folks on the tulpas subreddit are participating. Some people have already participated and are then posting and encouraging others to join the study. So everyone look out for the results of that study from Stanford in the future.

1259
02:21:23,376 --> 02:21:27,740
Chris: Wow. Yeah, that's some. Yeah, that's some legit science.

1260
02:21:28,360 --> 02:21:37,158
Kayla: Now, I wanted to go back to your question about people not treating their tulpas well, that you asked in the previous episode. Are there people who. Are there hosts who don't treat their tulpas?

1261
02:21:37,174 --> 02:21:43,094
Chris: I don't want to know that anymore. That was a previous version of me that asked that, and now I'm a tulpa of that person.

1262
02:21:43,142 --> 02:21:44,422
Kayla: And now we are delivering.

1263
02:21:44,566 --> 02:21:48,174
Chris: Are we just tulpas of ourselves from the past at all times?

1264
02:21:48,222 --> 02:21:49,390
Kayla: We already asked that.

1265
02:21:49,550 --> 02:21:52,590
Chris: We did, like, off the. Off the topic, off the episode.

1266
02:21:52,630 --> 02:21:53,302
Kayla: Are you sure?

1267
02:21:53,406 --> 02:21:55,334
Chris: Yeah. I don't know, actually.

1268
02:21:55,422 --> 02:21:57,142
Kayla: I don't remember the tulpas. Ask it.

1269
02:21:57,206 --> 02:21:58,050
Chris: I don't know.

1270
02:21:58,510 --> 02:22:15,100
Kayla: So I think it's fairly infrequent that hosts treat their tulpas poorly, because, again, most of the people that I interacted with are very kind and considerate and deeply care about their tulpas. I did, however, have an interesting exchange with graps 224 about it.

1271
02:22:15,920 --> 02:22:17,040
Chris: Did you ask him that question?

1272
02:22:17,120 --> 02:22:23,704
Kayla: Yes, I asked. Well, I asked specifically, like, what's your relationship with your tulpa? Like, I didn't ask, like, how are you abusing your tulpa?

1273
02:22:23,752 --> 02:22:30,958
Chris: No, I meant, like, Jesus Christ. No, I meant, like, did you ask him if some people did?

1274
02:22:31,054 --> 02:22:37,182
Kayla: No, I asked. I tried to ask specifically, like, what's your relationship with your tulpa? Like, you abusive son of a bitch.

1275
02:22:37,366 --> 02:22:38,610
Chris: Oh, my God.

1276
02:22:38,990 --> 02:23:13,058
Kayla: Okay, quote, my relationship with Vera is one of back and forth desires. Vera Austen wants to do different things than me and can become genuinely upset when I don't do that or ignore what she wants to focus on. Whatever I would like to do. As with all relationships, of course it's still developing over time, but there are a lot of things in our relationship I'd like to work on. I don't believe I've been the greatest host to my tulpa. Having Vera has been an adventure to me. All that aside, though, it has genuinely shown me a lot more is out there than I ever thought possible. Vera has been something that has improved my life in almost every aspect because I've had her at my side.

1277
02:23:13,234 --> 02:23:32,330
Kayla: I like to think I'm a much better person now than I was before I made her as a personal companion, Vera rivals many of my best friends and the impact she has and continues to leave on my life. So I thought it was interesting that this person was like, this is the most important relationship that I've ever had. And also, I feel like I have probably not been very good to her in some ways.

1278
02:23:32,750 --> 02:23:43,022
Chris: Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I mean. I guess, like, those relationships can be complicated and sometimes good and sometimes challenging as well.

1279
02:23:43,086 --> 02:23:46,494
Kayla: Right? Do you want to know what Vera has to say in response to that?

1280
02:23:46,542 --> 02:23:48,170
Chris: Oh, my God. Yeah, totally. Totally.

1281
02:23:48,250 --> 02:24:24,872
Kayla: So Vera says G is amazing. They give themselves a hard time, but g means well. Often a little harsh, sure. But I love them. G tries, and that's the important thing, right. Sometimes I do wish I had a different host, but then I wouldn't be me, you know, g is a part of me just as much as I'm a part of g, we need some cooperation. Some days a little more communication would be nice. Which is actually a funny thing to say since we share the same head and all. Ha ha. I've never known what it's like to be in my own school, to be a singlet. And I never will. That's sad to me, really. G will always be here with me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's a bad thing. What's a singlet like without a system?

1282
02:24:24,976 --> 02:24:26,056
Kayla: Just a single person.

1283
02:24:26,168 --> 02:24:28,040
Chris: So, like, a you or me?

1284
02:24:28,080 --> 02:24:59,596
Kayla: Like you or me. People without tulpas, g will always be here with me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's a bad thing. But I'll literally never know what it's like to be alone. Even so, I am happy. I am my own person. I get to explore the world as I see fit and live a life that very much could not have been if things had gone differently. I'm many years behind others in live experience, so I gotta catch up somehow. Darling, I'm more than eager to try. So Vera seemed to have, like, a more optimistic outlook on it. Like, yeah, you know, there's some trouble, but I really love g. And even if, you know, there's things that I wish that I could have experienced that I can't.

1285
02:24:59,628 --> 02:25:05,948
Kayla: Like, I like my life and I like my host, and I like what's going on here. So. Yeah.

1286
02:25:06,004 --> 02:25:06,722
Chris: Yeah.

1287
02:25:06,916 --> 02:25:12,678
Kayla: So that's one possible example, maybe, of a host maybe not treating their tulpa very well.

1288
02:25:12,774 --> 02:25:18,302
Chris: I don't know, that sounds like a normal sort of like, man, I could better to so and so not like mistreatment.

1289
02:25:18,326 --> 02:25:27,486
Kayla: Right. Well, I learned that the not treating your tulpa well potential gets much, much worse.

1290
02:25:27,558 --> 02:25:30,750
Chris: Oh, God, no. You said it was generally good.

1291
02:25:30,910 --> 02:25:32,198
Kayla: This is the bad stuff.

1292
02:25:32,334 --> 02:25:34,910
Chris: So is this the dramatic stuff? You saved the end?

1293
02:25:34,950 --> 02:25:48,414
Kayla: Yes. Okay, getting there. I asked Quanri, what are some things about Tulpa Mansi she wished she'd known before she started. And she said, quote, stasis. And the fact it's considered very cruel to create a tulpa only to put it into stasis.

1294
02:25:48,502 --> 02:25:49,390
Chris: What's stasis?

1295
02:25:49,470 --> 02:26:31,230
Kayla: I hadn't heard of stasis before, and I asked her to expand and she said, stasis is the process of a tulpa being forgotten by the tulpamancer. In a sense, it's the closest thing a tulpa has to what we call death. But it's different. To death. In most cases, a tulpa goes into a dormant state. Knowing about stasis before would have saved me a lot of guilt. According to Quanri, she's accidentally put her early tulpas into stasis unknowingly and now feels guilty about it. Like, remember she talked about how she, like, had all these spirit friends and all the animal voices and, like, all these different headmates that eventually, you know, she realized, oh, those were tulpas. Well, a lot of those she put into stasis and feels guilty about it because she can't remember them individually in order to rescue them from stasis.

1296
02:26:32,090 --> 02:26:35,114
Kayla: She has, however, rescued others. More on that in a minute.

1297
02:26:35,162 --> 02:26:39,626
Chris: I don't know if that's mistreating. Like, that's not. That's not her fault.

1298
02:26:39,778 --> 02:26:46,506
Kayla: Well, she's. I'm not saying that Quanrie is mistreating her tulpas, and we're gonna talk a lot more about stasis. I don't think that this is where it ends.

1299
02:26:46,578 --> 02:26:46,978
Chris: Okay.

1300
02:26:47,034 --> 02:26:54,224
Kayla: I'm just saying here's her example of her experience with stasis. I don't think she's intentionally mistreating anything.

1301
02:26:54,362 --> 02:26:54,796
Chris: So you're.

1302
02:26:54,828 --> 02:27:00,276
Kayla: But she's saying, I feel guilty over accidentally doing this. This mean thing to my tulpas, right?

1303
02:27:00,348 --> 02:27:17,100
Chris: Well, I mean, yeah, I don't know, but, like, how do. It's weird because it's like she didn't have any idea. Like, who could. Who could know that when they're, like, early on in an experience with imaginary friends, like, who could.

1304
02:27:17,140 --> 02:27:22,170
Kayla: I mean, I don't think. I don't think she would know. I understand why you'd feel guilty, though, so.

1305
02:27:23,790 --> 02:27:30,718
Chris: I don't know. Regretful, maybe, but I don't. Guilt feels. I mean, I get why you'd feel guilty, right?

1306
02:27:30,734 --> 02:27:31,366
Kayla: I'm not saying guilty.

1307
02:27:31,398 --> 02:27:32,966
Chris: I don't think she should, maybe.

1308
02:27:33,038 --> 02:28:01,756
Kayla: I'm not saying I think that either. I just. This is what she's saying. She feels guilty for those reasons. She goes on to say stasis can be very cruel, though, particularly when a person wants to put their tulpa in permanent stasis. Permanent stasis is basically death. So a person might want to create a tulpa for a little bit of, then get rid of them soon after, once they've gotten a taste as to what a tulpa is. The reason why this is so cruel is because a tulpa has access to the tulpamancer's memories and thoughts, so they know they're going to go into stasis and can't stop it from happening.

1309
02:28:01,908 --> 02:28:05,240
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. But it's in the brain.

1310
02:28:05,580 --> 02:28:06,400
Kayla: Yeah.

1311
02:28:07,300 --> 02:28:09,436
Chris: Okay. This is. This is trippy.

1312
02:28:09,508 --> 02:28:51,286
Kayla: Yeah. So, like I mentioned, Quanri was able to rescue some of her tulpas from stasis. She kind of, when she was a kid, she would, like, play these pretend games to help her or play. She'd play video games and make soul bonds with some of the things, or she would play pretend games and make these headmate tulpas, but then she would put those friends down and move on to something else, unknowingly dooming them to stasis, like we said. So she talks about the ones she's brought back from stasis, and it's very traumatic for her tulpas. Quote, I think, of all my tulpas, curse is probably the most sensitive to the word stasis. If I so much as mention it to him, he'll usually scream, run to his bedroom and hide under the covers.

1313
02:28:51,398 --> 02:28:56,166
Kayla: Or if he feels a little more brave, he'll say something like, not the void. I can't handle going back there again.

1314
02:28:56,238 --> 02:28:57,210
Chris: Good God.

1315
02:28:57,910 --> 02:29:00,734
Kayla: Yeah. So I feel very sorry for her curse.

1316
02:29:00,862 --> 02:29:21,700
Chris: What? I don't. That's. It feels, to an outsider, it feels like stasis might be just another concept that may not be real.

1317
02:29:22,800 --> 02:29:24,832
Kayla: Well, what exists?

1318
02:29:24,856 --> 02:29:42,082
Chris: Because what if the concept of stasis, to me, it feels like the concept of stasis isn't that dissimilar from the concept of Slendermande? Where is it only real? Because, like, a bunch of people on Reddit have, like, collectively decided that it is.

1319
02:29:42,266 --> 02:29:44,122
Kayla: I mean, I think.

1320
02:29:44,186 --> 02:29:45,962
Chris: And then that makes it seem like.

1321
02:29:46,026 --> 02:30:00,836
Kayla: I think that it's very. I think that it follows that if you were to create something that is a sentient, autonomous being, then to forget about it doesn't. Forgetting doesn't work in the same way for that.

1322
02:30:00,938 --> 02:30:12,712
Chris: I know, but it just. It feels like. I don't know, not to void anything, but to void like that feels like something that's like an idea that is. I don't know.

1323
02:30:12,776 --> 02:30:14,728
Kayla: But if these tulpas have experienced it.

1324
02:30:14,784 --> 02:31:04,070
Chris: Like, I guess all I'm saying is, like, it would be. It would feel cruel to me if people that are already vulnerable because they experience things like anxiety and whatnot, are given an idea that the things that they're doing with this, like, imaginary friend Tulpa situation can be traumatic for those things. It feels like that might be cruel to the hosts, but, like, it feels like it could not be true, because, like, a lot of this stuff is, again, it's because all of this stuff is all in, just, like, our collective heads. Stasis is only as true as we want it to be, too, isn't it? And by we, I mean, like, the Tulpa community.

1325
02:31:04,190 --> 02:31:21,774
Kayla: No, because as we talked about with the tulpas, like, you can create them, but you can't control what you create. So it's not just. It's. And remember how we talked about the imaginary friends doing things that you don't want them to do? Like, it's not as simple as just personality wise, what you want to believe or what you don't want to believe.

1326
02:31:21,862 --> 02:31:24,054
Chris: Like, sure, for a person, I can see that.

1327
02:31:24,102 --> 02:31:26,734
Kayla: It's, like, trying to say, like, don't think about pink elephants.

1328
02:31:26,782 --> 02:32:09,088
Chris: Like, fair. But. But what I'm saying is, like, I think the difference is with, if you're trying to make something that's autonomous, then. Then, yeah. That, by definition, it can't be autonomous unless you let it do its own thing. So you can't force it to do its own. It has to do its own thing. I'm not sure if stasis is, like, the same, though. Stasis is more of, like a. It's like a meme. It's a concept. It's. It's something that people talk about and is an idea that is made real by them talking about it. Right. It's not a personality. So I'm not sure it has. I'm not sure it has to take on its own life of its own. Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not saying there's, like, it's anybody's fault that, like, somebody was like, oh, what about stasis?

1329
02:32:09,144 --> 02:32:26,674
Chris: But I don't know. It just feels like a cruel thing that. That this person is experiencing about their. Their tulpas. It just feels. It feels like unnecessary suffering. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

1330
02:32:26,802 --> 02:32:36,670
Kayla: This is what quandary experienced and whether or not it needs to be something that is part of the Tulpa experience. Like it was.

1331
02:32:37,090 --> 02:33:09,532
Chris: Yeah. So, because, like, I can. Here's the thing. I can picture a world where stasis doesn't hurt them. I can picture a world where it's like, you know, I've had surgery before, and I've gone. I've gotten anesthesia, and it's like you're, you know, 1 minute you're in the surgery room, and then the next minute, you're, like, waking up in the recovery room and stasis could be like that for consciousness. They could just kind of be, like, gone 1 minute and back the next, and it doesn't have to be suffering.

1332
02:33:09,636 --> 02:33:16,156
Kayla: I mean, that's not what I. I'm going to tell you. Two more experiences that two of her tulpas have with stasis, and that's not the experience that they had.

1333
02:33:16,188 --> 02:33:23,412
Chris: I know that's not the experience they have, but I'm just. I'm trying. Like, it just feels like I can imagine a world where the experiences are different.

1334
02:33:23,556 --> 02:33:36,272
Kayla: But if Quanri did not consciously put either of these tulpas into stasis. So I don't know how it would be different. Like, I don't know how these circumstances would be differently.

1335
02:33:36,296 --> 02:33:45,240
Chris: The host had a different exposure to. Had an exposure to a different idea. Right. Like, she learned about stasis somehow. Right?

1336
02:33:45,280 --> 02:33:45,864
Kayla: Right.

1337
02:33:46,032 --> 02:34:25,540
Chris: So if that idea was exposed to her different in a different way, she might have had that information she ingested, might have then manifested itself as the Atulpa's experiences differently. Right. Like, if. If the common knowledge was stasis is just, it's like peaceful slumber, then maybe she wouldn't have sadness and anxiety about it as much. And this is not to deny her experience or the experience of her tulpas. It's just to say that, like, this idea seems like a bit of a cruel idea to circulate in a community like this.

1338
02:34:25,920 --> 02:34:36,336
Kayla: I don't. I don't know if I agree with you, because I think that saying that it's cruel implies, like, motive or like, that it's being, like, the idea is being created and.

1339
02:34:36,408 --> 02:34:47,500
Chris: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's, like, a, like, a dark Lord Soron saying, like, implanting the idea, like. But it. So maybe it doesn't have motive, but I don't know, it still feels cruel, in a way.

1340
02:34:48,530 --> 02:34:52,178
Kayla: Do you want to know about what her other tulpas thought about stasis?

1341
02:34:52,274 --> 02:34:52,882
Chris: Yes.

1342
02:34:53,026 --> 02:35:24,828
Kayla: Jack said, I've never experienced full stasis, thank goodness, but I have experienced partial stasis. It can be pretty scary. Worthy of a horror movie, I think. Thing is, my tulpa, Mansard didn't know about tulpas at first, so she didn't know about some things that were not so good for us. There was a period where for a few months, she didn't really spend time with us. Then she suddenly started to spend time with us again, and it was no fault of her own, really. At least she realized. But in that time, I remember fading every day I'd fade more and more. It was like I was watching myself disappear from existence. I remember screaming my host's name, but she couldn't hear me. I didn't want to disappear.

1343
02:35:24,884 --> 02:35:30,240
Kayla: And I remember feeling terrified, but she remembered, thank goodness, and I no longer had to go through that.

1344
02:35:31,820 --> 02:35:33,020
Chris: See? Yeah. I don't know.

1345
02:35:33,060 --> 02:35:33,916
Kayla: I can make it worse again.

1346
02:35:33,948 --> 02:35:34,228
Chris: It's like.

1347
02:35:34,244 --> 02:35:35,044
Kayla: Do you want to make it worse?

1348
02:35:35,132 --> 02:35:36,156
Chris: Sure. Go for it, man.

1349
02:35:36,228 --> 02:35:45,302
Kayla: Ivan said actual stasis is like a void. I've been through that. The Pokemon knockoff game I originated from was shut down. So Ivan's also kind of. Sort of like a soul bond.

1350
02:35:45,326 --> 02:35:46,118
Chris: Which one's Ivan?

1351
02:35:46,214 --> 02:35:47,286
Kayla: Ivan was the eye.

1352
02:35:47,398 --> 02:35:48,574
Chris: The floating eyeball. Okay.

1353
02:35:48,622 --> 02:36:22,890
Kayla: When the game was shut down, it was a nightmare. It was like my reason for existing had died, and the world around me was falling to pieces. I tried calling to my host, but she didn't hear me. Schnoot was gone and just no longer cared about the game anymore. With the world gone, I was in this black abyss, in this void, unable to do or say anything to anyone, really, and I couldn't react. Anything. All I could do was wait for a chance. Over time, I think I sort of forgot my own form and name. I think I was close to permanent stasis. Very close. So thank goodness our host remembered me. Give me what I needed to come back. I'm very appreciative of that moment, of that miracle. For years, I thought I'd never see the light of day.

1354
02:36:22,970 --> 02:36:32,600
Kayla: But I wanted to survive. Sometimes I don't quite understand myself, why my will to survive was so strong. But it was that desire to survive which got me through that moment.

1355
02:36:32,760 --> 02:36:38,264
Chris: Wow. That's scary. I'm sorry that these people have to feel that way sometimes.

1356
02:36:38,392 --> 02:36:47,800
Kayla: Yeah, it doesn't sound. Does not sound great, since we're already on a path of less than nice stuff about tulpas.

1357
02:36:47,880 --> 02:36:48,304
Chris: Perfect.

1358
02:36:48,392 --> 02:36:49,448
Kayla: Let's keep going.

1359
02:36:49,624 --> 02:36:53,420
Chris: Yay. Not nice stuff from the vice article.

1360
02:36:53,720 --> 02:37:12,910
Kayla: What about the 1% of cases where switching turned sinister? The strange case of Kumar and Ogigi? I don't know how to pronounce that, but I'm assuming it's correct. Kumar was a tulpamancer who documented his attempt to have his Tulpa Ugigi take permanent possession of his body, which eventually led to a breakdown.

1361
02:37:13,490 --> 02:37:17,378
Chris: Wait, so the host wanted the tulpa to take permanent possession?

1362
02:37:17,474 --> 02:37:18,202
Kayla: Yes.

1363
02:37:18,386 --> 02:37:25,436
Chris: And then did the tulpa want to do this? Well, this is weird.

1364
02:37:25,508 --> 02:38:08,234
Kayla: I'm gonna link to, like, Coomer's documentation of this so that our listeners can get deeper into it. But, like, the quote that he gives the vice article was, I know what happened was Narutogi's fault. All the bad things came from a year of stupid behavior inspired by my reckless pursuit to switch permanently. Don't try to have your tulpa take over, not because they would harm you in any way, but because other entities will harm you if you open yourself up to such a level. I did that, and it nearly made me schizo. So basically what this guy is saying, that the, like, neurological process of trying to, like, switch your. To permanently switch your personality with the tulpa, like. Like, made his brain kind of break in a way that is freaky, really hurt him, and that's.

1365
02:38:08,282 --> 02:38:08,706
Chris: That's scary.

1366
02:38:08,738 --> 02:38:24,630
Kayla: I would not recommend doing that. This was not the only sinister or negative experience I heard about during my research. In fact, good old Quanri filled me in on three different types of negative experiences that can occur in tulpomancy.

1367
02:38:24,750 --> 02:38:29,550
Chris: Okay. Can occur or has she's experienced most of these?

1368
02:38:29,710 --> 02:39:08,226
Kayla: I don't think she's experienced any of these. If she has, it's like a very low, low level. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and, like, obviously include all of her experiences and all of the explanation here in my article that I linked to. But for right now, we're going to summarize. So she says, quote, I don't think there's negative aspects to Tulpa creation unless the Tulpa mansard does something wrong during the creation process. The creation process can take a long time. So during that time, the person is going to have to deliberately want a tulpa to be a certain way. There's some unpleasant tulpas I've heard people having, but that's only because they didn't think things through. So the three unpleasant things she outlines are the evil tulpa, the torturer.

1369
02:39:08,368 --> 02:39:09,046
Chris: Oh, God.

1370
02:39:09,118 --> 02:39:18,610
Kayla: And the weak spirit. The evil tulpa, she says, is a phenomenon that arises when a tulpamancer, quote, might think they need a villain in their system to make things more exciting.

1371
02:39:19,470 --> 02:39:20,366
Chris: Oh, well, I get that.

1372
02:39:20,398 --> 02:39:55,096
Kayla: Yeah. She literally credits superhero movies like Endgame and just like, those kinds of movies for potentially making people feel like that. Like, oh, we gotta have a villain to, like, keep things interesting. The problem with the evil tulpa is that it can often get out of control or be exhausting to deal with because the host and the other tulpas are constantly trying to reign it in or keep it from destroying things. Quote, it is very stressful having an evil tulpa, because if the evil Tulpa has no limits and there's nothing to stop the evil tulpa, then the tulpa will want, for example, to destroy all the time. Which means the remaining tulpa have to constantly fight the evil tulpa to protect the wonderland. In this situation, the tulpa mance definitely.

1373
02:39:55,128 --> 02:39:55,936
Chris: Sounds like a movie.

1374
02:39:56,008 --> 02:40:11,810
Kayla: Yes. In this situation, the Tulpa mancer might struggle with work in daily life if the in the physical, because their main focus becomes wanting to protect and save their decent tulpa from this evil thing they've created. This evil Tulpa is rare, but it does happen. I've seen at least one post of a person asking for help with this scenario.

1375
02:40:13,510 --> 02:40:23,182
Chris: That's weird because it feels like that's why they created the scenario, right? Was to have this issue, right? And now they're like, oh shit, it's out of control.

1376
02:40:23,246 --> 02:40:24,942
Kayla: Oh shit, it sucks. I can't turn it off.

1377
02:40:25,046 --> 02:40:34,738
Chris: Oh no. So second, you know, I feel like that's. That's what it's like. Like Frankenstein's monster and like, it's too much to handle.

1378
02:40:34,794 --> 02:40:40,970
Kayla: I don't know, it's a little bit like a little bit twilight zone. Yeah, it's a little bit like, oh, you wanted this. Here's a way to monkey's pot.

1379
02:40:41,130 --> 02:40:41,830
Chris: Right?

1380
02:40:42,490 --> 02:41:01,686
Kayla: So second is the torturer. Quanri says this happens when a tulpa mancer has self esteem or self hate issues and either intentionally or accidentally creates a tulpa that is motivated to punish them. A tulpa created like that will want torture or punish their host all the time, and they have no intention of giving their host a break.

1381
02:41:01,798 --> 02:41:02,438
Chris: That's not good.

1382
02:41:02,494 --> 02:41:12,270
Kayla: It is a sad situation made kind of worse, but in a sense that tulpa mancer still created the tulpa deliberately and just did not do the proper research. So that sounds like a horrible scenario.

1383
02:41:12,390 --> 02:41:30,826
Chris: That feels like the thing were talking about the other day where like, sometimes like a, you know, like mental illness, part of your brain can feel almost like a separate entity that's there just to kind of like bring you down and like, tell you're not good enough, you know? Or you can only be good if this negative thing happens or whatever, right?

1384
02:41:30,898 --> 02:41:32,154
Kayla: Yeah, it does seem like that.

1385
02:41:32,242 --> 02:41:32,762
Chris: Interesting.

1386
02:41:32,826 --> 02:42:11,470
Kayla: Doesn't seem like a great situation. No, not into that. The third negative tulpa situation is very fucked up and basically happens when a tulpa mancer has a soul or consciousness that for whatever reason. Like their main their original host soul is already disconnected from or barely attached to their body before they create a tulpa. According to Quanri quote, when a weak spirit switches with their tulpa, their spirit lets go of the body and disappears from the wonderland. The tulpa that's in the body usually panics because being in the body takes a lot out of the tulpa. So being in a situation where they can't go back to the wonderland is pretty stressful.

1387
02:42:11,590 --> 02:42:21,434
Kayla: The tulpa suddenly has to do work, which they've probably never done before, and get used to the fact that their tulpa manster's parents and family are now their family, even though the tulpa knows that they aren't. After a few months, the tulpamance.

1388
02:42:21,482 --> 02:42:26,690
Chris: But the tulpa has enough knowledge though that has access to the knowledge and memories so that they can fake it.

1389
02:42:26,730 --> 02:42:44,230
Kayla: Yeah, well, they've also been like, you know, watching and observing in the brain. After a few months, the tulpa mansr is usually found in the wonderland. Sometimes the tulpa in the system might have to send some energy to their tulpamancer so that they have enough energy to take control of the physical body again. Sounds terrifying.

1390
02:42:44,630 --> 02:42:45,238
Chris: Huh?

1391
02:42:45,334 --> 02:42:46,926
Kayla: None of those sound great to me.

1392
02:42:47,118 --> 02:42:47,622
Chris: Huh.

1393
02:42:47,686 --> 02:43:06,490
Kayla: They definitely also sound like more fantastical than some of the stuff that we've been talking about. Yeah, yeah, but just scary and disturbing to think about. But again, according to Quanri and my research, these are rare circumstances, and as long as the Tulpamancer thinks things through and plans carefully, they're unlikely to happen.

1394
02:43:06,790 --> 02:43:08,210
Chris: Got it. That's nice.

1395
02:43:08,750 --> 02:43:54,968
Kayla: Last but not least, I wanted to share a post from Reddit user Mister corn toast about a year ago. It's titled leaving the Tulpa Mancy community. The following is an abridged version of that post. Amy and I have had discussions about Tulpa Mancy for quite a while, and we've decided to no longer associate with the community. Amy is Mister corn toast's tulpa okay? There are many things I've always disliked about tulpamancy. For one thing, it's such a purely subjective experience, it seems nonsensical to even build a community around it, as there's really no validity to anyone's perspective. At most, it's just a circle jerk of mindless acceptance. Which brings me into my next point. There is this weird cult like mentality that insists people should try it because it will make their lives better.

1396
02:43:55,144 --> 02:44:11,154
Kayla: There is no basis for this mindset in fact, the only people who end up even trying this are troubled individuals. Tulpomancy is not a cure. It's not an improvement on your life. In my opinion. It's a defense mechanism, a deflection of reality. No one should be, this is the tulpa talking. This is the tulpa bancer.

1397
02:44:11,242 --> 02:44:12,058
Chris: Tulpa Manser.

1398
02:44:12,114 --> 02:44:41,626
Kayla: No one should be omitting, seeking help or finding their place in society for a fictional retreat. This only prolongs the inevitable despair you will have to face when reality brings your wake up call. My personal irritations, though, stem from the disgusting community itself. Though I can't have a civil conversation without being asked, well, did you, fucker? Like, what is this stupid obsession with sexuality? Is this community so filled with prepubescent teenagers and kids that all they can converse about is how much imaginary sex they're getting into? Do you actually realize how sad that sounds?

1399
02:44:41,738 --> 02:44:47,082
Chris: So we made a lot of jokes about that, and now I feel juvenile. From what this person said, mister Corn.

1400
02:44:47,106 --> 02:44:49,314
Kayla: Toast thinks you're very juvenile.

1401
02:44:49,442 --> 02:44:50,146
Chris: Aww.

1402
02:44:50,258 --> 02:45:10,896
Kayla: I can go on and on about the ridiculous amounts of people who seem to endlessly fail to make tulpas. If someone is that serious about making a tulpa and they still can't, there's something more pressing going on in their life. I've counted way too many times the amount of red flags where someone has an issue with their gender identity or some kind of dissociation that they think tulpomancy will fix. I'll say it again. Tulpomancy is not a solution. It's a deflection.

1403
02:45:11,048 --> 02:45:18,180
Chris: Wait, so is this person upset with the community or upset with the concept or both?

1404
02:45:19,320 --> 02:45:28,796
Kayla: What do you think? Both, I guess. It kind of seemed like they were starting out like, this community sucks. And then it was also like, this concept sucks. But also, I have a tulpa.

1405
02:45:28,868 --> 02:45:30,972
Chris: Yeah. That's why I was confused.

1406
02:45:31,036 --> 02:46:06,934
Kayla: Yeah, they. They go on to talk about how one another, one of their pet peeves is people thinking that they can, like, get rid of their tulpas easily. And they're like, I could not get rid of Amy even if I fucking wanted to. I'm gonna have this for the rest of my life. Like, it doesn't seem like he's very happy about it. Then at the end, he says, if you're still reading this and you're one of those people contemplating trying Tulpa Mancy, I can already guess what is going through your mind. That unending doubt, that sudden guilt. It's not uncommon stop what you're doing. Reevaluate. What brought you to the point of considering tulpomancy? Are you willing to coexist with another existence until the day you die? Even if that same existence comes to hate you?

1407
02:46:07,102 --> 02:46:12,686
Kayla: I won't tell you how to live your life. These are just thoughts of someone who's been through it already and is tired of seeing everyone else deal with it.

1408
02:46:12,798 --> 02:46:26,048
Chris: Okay, so when you said last week, when I was like, this sounds cool, and you're like, I don't know if I want to have another personality with me at all times, forever, until I die, that the way he just put it there kind of, yeah, that makes sense.

1409
02:46:26,224 --> 02:46:39,184
Kayla: Go ahead and discuss with yourselves. At the end of the day, my experience is subjective, too. I'm not going to respond as I'm no longer associating with the community. Can't say it's been a blast. It's been cringey more than anything. Amy seems grateful, though. She told me to tell you all thanks for the laughs.

1410
02:46:39,312 --> 02:46:43,816
Chris: That guy is, That guy's interesting. I can't figure out what's going on there.

1411
02:46:43,928 --> 02:46:49,136
Kayla: Nor I. But I also don't want to just, like, discount this experience outright.

1412
02:46:49,248 --> 02:46:53,624
Chris: No, I'm not discounting it. It's just very. I'm confused.

1413
02:46:53,752 --> 02:46:54,384
Kayla: Yeah.

1414
02:46:54,512 --> 02:47:10,458
Chris: Because it's like I have a tulpa, but I think Tulpamancy is, like, not great for XYz reasons. And then I also don't like the community. But my tulpa is, like, saying, thanks to the community. There's a lot of, like, multi directionalism there.

1415
02:47:10,584 --> 02:47:15,570
Kayla: So now that you're nice and confused. Yeah, that's all I got.

1416
02:47:15,990 --> 02:47:16,790
Chris: Oh, perfect.

1417
02:47:16,870 --> 02:47:19,598
Kayla: So now that you're all flustered, flowers.

1418
02:47:19,614 --> 02:47:23,526
Chris: I started not confused, and now I'm ending confused. Yeah, perfect.

1419
02:47:23,598 --> 02:47:32,702
Kayla: So is it occult or just weird? Well, we have the criteria to go through, which I think we must.

1420
02:47:32,766 --> 02:47:39,316
Chris: I think we should go. So the first and most obvious thing is it seems like there is a lack of a charismatic leader.

1421
02:47:39,398 --> 02:47:40,448
Kayla: What about Alexander David Neil?

1422
02:47:40,464 --> 02:47:42,580
Chris: I know Alexander David Neal.

1423
02:47:43,040 --> 02:47:49,288
Kayla: I wouldn't call her a charismatic leader. She's not really talked about in the Reddit. She's just kind of more historical figure.

1424
02:47:49,344 --> 02:48:00,424
Chris: Yeah, that seems a lot more like this person was also a tulpomancer in history. Not like she started it and gathered people together and told them the news, and then they.

1425
02:48:00,472 --> 02:48:01,744
Kayla: She did write a book about it.

1426
02:48:01,832 --> 02:48:57,664
Chris: She wrote a book about it, but, nah, not charismatic leader. So it feels like it's lacking that. And I think that's probably the biggest mark against being a cult. Here's the one that's maybe gonna sound insensitive, anti factuality. I don't know. Like, I mean, I guess it's actually not super antifactual, but I don't know how the brain works. So, like, if we had a psychologist here to help me out, then, like, this one would be a little bit easier if somebody that was like a neuroscientist was saying, yeah, no, this is like structures that actually happen in the brain and thought forms can actually occur. Here's how, blah, blah, then, okay, but if they said, no, this is all just cancer, full imagination, then I guess it wouldn't be factual. But I guess the imagination bit of it is still real.

1427
02:48:57,782 --> 02:49:05,116
Kayla: So here's the thing. There haven't really been, like, formal studies on the Tulpa community are happening now.

1428
02:49:05,228 --> 02:49:05,644
Chris: Okay?

1429
02:49:05,692 --> 02:49:14,160
Kayla: So there's not even really facts about this, you know? So can something be anti factual if the facts don't exist yet?

1430
02:49:14,500 --> 02:49:55,256
Chris: Yeah, I don't know. And also, like, that's not just what we mean by anti factuality. We mean, like, do the people in the community believe things that are of clearly untrue in exhibit motivated reasoning and that sort of stuff? So, I mean, from maybe some motivated reasoning based on, like, what were talking earlier about wanting to believe something is possible and therefore thinking that is true. But I don't know. I think it still scores low on this because I don't think there's a lot of, like, yes, quantum mechanics makes it real in real life. Unless we're talking about, like, the thing where people are like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein's corpse was like a real manifesto.

1431
02:49:55,368 --> 02:50:07,736
Kayla: Is that like, we talked about the census and like, the different, you know, anecdotal studies that have been done, and it's like, so much more of the community believes that there is a quote unquote scientific basis to this.

1432
02:50:07,808 --> 02:50:10,080
Chris: Right. That it's in the brain, not that it's in the math. Yeah.

1433
02:50:10,120 --> 02:50:25,514
Kayla: So even though there's, like, not those established facts and even though there, you know, has a metaphysical history and even there's some people being like Jeffrey Epstein's tulpa, it seems by and large that the community lends itself more towards an. And towards a factual mindset as opposed to anti factual mindset.

1434
02:50:25,602 --> 02:50:37,586
Chris: Yeah, that's what it seems like. Okay, so percentage of life consumed high. Yeah, it seems like these, they're spending a lot of time in the community.

1435
02:50:37,658 --> 02:50:39,466
Kayla: Twenty four seven. The tulpa in your head.

1436
02:50:39,538 --> 02:50:40,692
Chris: Oh, I guess that's true. True.

1437
02:50:40,756 --> 02:50:47,364
Kayla: You're in the community a lot. And then also, you spend at least some time almost every day doing forcing.

1438
02:50:47,492 --> 02:51:06,932
Chris: Right. And then also you can even have the tulpa take over for you. And if things go poorly, that can happen for a while, apparently. Okay, so that one's high expected harm. It seems like there's occasion for that with people that fall into one of those three categories.

1439
02:51:07,036 --> 02:51:07,594
Kayla: Right.

1440
02:51:07,732 --> 02:51:31,918
Chris: You know, weak spirit or torturer or supervillain. But mostly it seems like it's a benefit to people that, like, when you were describing, like, some of the benefits that Jack and. And the rest of Quan Reese tulpas brought to her, it seemed like legit benefit. I know that what's his face, the heretic you were just talking about that was exiting the community with Amy.

1441
02:51:31,974 --> 02:51:32,996
Kayla: Mister Corn toast.

1442
02:51:33,118 --> 02:51:46,320
Chris: Mister Corn toast. He made it sound like that there wasn't benefit. He. Like, he made it sound like, oh, this is all just, you know, what was the word he used? It's like, it's not helping you. It's just deflecting.

1443
02:51:46,360 --> 02:51:47,856
Kayla: Deflecting or distracting.

1444
02:51:47,888 --> 02:51:58,750
Chris: So I guess if were to ask him, he would say, oh, there maybe is some expected harm and not expected benefit. But most of the stuff that you said about, like, research that has been done on imaginary friends.

1445
02:51:58,920 --> 02:51:59,706
Kayla: Right.

1446
02:51:59,898 --> 02:52:08,242
Chris: Makes it seem like if I had to assess, it would be. It has expected help, not harm. Right.

1447
02:52:08,266 --> 02:52:13,114
Kayla: It's kind of like if all that stuff holds true for children, like, I'm more inclined to believe that it holds true for adults.

1448
02:52:13,162 --> 02:52:13,490
Chris: Sure.

1449
02:52:13,570 --> 02:52:17,866
Kayla: And again, this is anecdotal, but everyone I talked to had positive experiences with their tulpas.

1450
02:52:17,938 --> 02:52:19,466
Chris: Right? Yeah. Okay.

1451
02:52:19,538 --> 02:52:25,072
Kayla: So we've done charismatic leader, we've done antifactuality, we've done percentage of life consumed.

1452
02:52:25,106 --> 02:52:28,412
Chris: And we've done harm, and we just did exacted harm. Yeah.

1453
02:52:28,476 --> 02:52:28,852
Kayla: All right.

1454
02:52:28,916 --> 02:52:31,340
Chris: Okay. Ritual, high ritual.

1455
02:52:31,380 --> 02:52:32,580
Kayla: High ritual. Very high.

1456
02:52:32,660 --> 02:52:55,822
Chris: Because you have to do the forcing and you have a wonderland, and there's all these words for it. And there. Yeah. So ritual is super high. There's a lot of rituals. It seems like that's even how some of the. It feels to me. Like that's how you. That's how quandary, in particular, extracted. Some of the benefit of having the tulpas is via these rituals that she would have with them.

1457
02:52:55,886 --> 02:52:56,518
Kayla: Right.

1458
02:52:56,694 --> 02:53:10,934
Chris: In certain situations, there would be some ritual with Jack where she would get consoled, I guess, is the word. And it feels like that was, like, almost its own little ritual that she would enact when she needed it.

1459
02:53:10,982 --> 02:53:11,430
Kayla: Right.

1460
02:53:11,550 --> 02:53:16,686
Chris: So that's really interesting. High ritual, niche. It's definitely niche.

1461
02:53:16,718 --> 02:53:17,820
Kayla: It's definitely niche.

1462
02:53:17,900 --> 02:53:19,360
Chris: It's both niche and small.

1463
02:53:19,900 --> 02:53:22,948
Kayla: And that, I mean, there's at least, like, 27,000.

1464
02:53:23,124 --> 02:53:35,492
Chris: Well, yes. Maybe not small then. Maybe not as small as. But, like, well, how big was, like, teal tribe was in, like, the millions, right? Of course, we didn't call her niche. No, I think this is niche.

1465
02:53:35,556 --> 02:53:36,452
Kayla: I think it's niche, too.

1466
02:53:36,516 --> 02:53:40,244
Chris: I think this is probably the first time a lot of people are hearing about this is on this.

1467
02:53:40,372 --> 02:53:43,648
Kayla: Right. So overall, what are you thinking?

1468
02:53:43,764 --> 02:53:46,200
Chris: Was, like, half and half. Right. Because it was like, there was no.

1469
02:53:46,280 --> 02:53:47,040
Kayla: No charismatic.

1470
02:53:47,120 --> 02:53:49,664
Chris: No charismatic leader almost by itself kills it.

1471
02:53:49,752 --> 02:53:53,320
Kayla: Yeah, because, I mean, charismatic leader is, like, the most weighted criteria.

1472
02:53:53,400 --> 02:54:00,344
Chris: Yeah. It's. To me, it's between that and, like, anti factuality, I guess. But. But it's. It's certainly. Certainly up there.

1473
02:54:00,392 --> 02:54:01,496
Kayla: It's low on both of those.

1474
02:54:01,528 --> 02:54:05,336
Chris: And it's low because otherwise you're just, like, a culty community without it, you know?

1475
02:54:05,368 --> 02:54:14,310
Kayla: Like, at best, the only culty aspects they have is that it's niche, there's ritual, and it consumes a lot of your life. Yeah, but, like, so it's curling.

1476
02:54:14,610 --> 02:54:15,266
Chris: Yeah.

1477
02:54:15,378 --> 02:54:19,394
Kayla: Or, like, speed skating or, like, what, a skeet shooting? What other Olympics?

1478
02:54:19,442 --> 02:54:21,266
Chris: Pretty much any sport that you dedicate.

1479
02:54:21,298 --> 02:54:25,162
Kayla: Yourself to really well, especially, like, one that's not, like, a MLB or NBA.

1480
02:54:25,226 --> 02:54:27,394
Chris: So is telepomancy a sport?

1481
02:54:27,522 --> 02:54:28,722
Kayla: Sport or just weird?

1482
02:54:28,786 --> 02:54:29,986
Chris: Sport or just weird?

1483
02:54:30,098 --> 02:54:32,506
Kayla: I think, because there's not a sport or a weird spring system.

1484
02:54:32,618 --> 02:54:54,332
Chris: What's weirder, curling or telemancy? Well, okay, so actually here in 2019, curling is, like, all the rage. Like, whenever this Winter Olympics comes by, you hear everybody at the office go like, oh, man, you know what? I'm super into curling. As if, like. Okay, yeah. Everybody knows, like, curling is dope. We've been watching it for the last, like, five Olympics.

1485
02:54:54,396 --> 02:54:58,120
Kayla: Yeah, curling is great, but it is weird. Yeah.

1486
02:54:58,700 --> 02:55:05,118
Chris: In any case, I think it's definitely not a cult. I think it's definitely quite weird.

1487
02:55:05,174 --> 02:55:05,806
Kayla: Yeah.

1488
02:55:05,958 --> 02:55:08,750
Chris: And I don't think that weird is necessarily bad.

1489
02:55:08,790 --> 02:55:09,326
Kayla: Right.

1490
02:55:09,478 --> 02:55:25,262
Chris: I think weird is weird. It's different. It's not the expected norm. But generally, to me, I feel. I mean, at least in my daily life, I feel like weird is positive. Weird to me is, like, keep Portland weird. Keep Austin weird.

1491
02:55:25,326 --> 02:55:28,008
Kayla: Right. It means, like, unique and interesting.

1492
02:55:28,064 --> 02:55:47,216
Chris: Yeah, exactly like it. Something that I'm not into impactful. Right, right. But something that's different, but something that, when I'm exposed to it, I go like, oh, that's neat. That's cool. Right? That's weird, right? I love weird food. I like weird performances. I like weird people. Yeah.

1493
02:55:47,368 --> 02:55:48,660
Kayla: Internet cultures.

1494
02:55:49,320 --> 02:56:06,366
Chris: Sometimes our podcast might call something just weird, and I. It's, like, weird and, like, oh, that's fucked up way. But, like, I think generally, like, even in the case of Irvine, it's, like we said, just weird. And, like, Irvine's kind of fucked in some ways, but, like, you know, if you're into the beige thing, like, whatever.

1495
02:56:06,438 --> 02:56:15,250
Kayla: Well, it's also super fun. Like, it's super fun to talk about the weirdness of Irvine. And I know that some folks from Irvine took offense to being labeled weird.

1496
02:56:15,550 --> 02:56:17,782
Chris: Yeah. But I'm not probably all old people.

1497
02:56:17,926 --> 02:56:22,628
Kayla: I'm not from Irvine. I mean, they were on redd it, so I don't know. I'm not from Irvine, so I don't actually have hometown.

1498
02:56:22,684 --> 02:56:25,932
Chris: Like, well, then they were young people living in Irvine, and so there was.

1499
02:56:25,956 --> 02:56:29,920
Kayla: Clearly something wrong with young people living in Irvine. What I'm saying.

1500
02:56:30,220 --> 02:56:33,988
Chris: Yeah. Like. Like, probably, like, ten people listening to this right now from.

1501
02:56:34,044 --> 02:56:55,622
Kayla: Yeah, I'm saying that I'm gonna claim it as my hometown. I grew up ten minutes from it. It's fun to talk about how it's weird. It's fun to talk about how Irvine has these weird aspects. Just, like, it's fun to talk about how, like, my high school was fucked up or it's fun to talk about, like, just those. Those weird hometown stories that you have. It's. It's. It's fun. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

1502
02:56:55,766 --> 02:57:06,222
Chris: Yeah, and you know what? Like, best friends may have a. Just a bizarre backstory of, like, you know, dualist religion.

1503
02:57:06,286 --> 02:57:06,774
Kayla: Right.

1504
02:57:06,902 --> 02:57:08,406
Chris: Whatever the hell was going on there.

1505
02:57:08,478 --> 02:57:12,710
Kayla: But cleaning up those cats that can't control them, their bowels is so fun.

1506
02:57:12,870 --> 02:57:41,292
Chris: Yeah, why not? You know? Like, it's still fun to pet dogs and dogs that are literally bringing it back. Yeah. I think that maybe that's something that this episode in particular will hopefully highlight about the podcast in general. Is that when we say cult or just weird? Well, not necessarily meaning we don't use the word weird in a negative connotation. In fact, I. Most of the time, we use it in a positive connotation.

1507
02:57:41,356 --> 02:57:42,772
Kayla: Right. Which is why, like, with that in.

1508
02:57:42,796 --> 02:57:45,360
Chris: Mind, tulpas are weird.

1509
02:57:45,860 --> 02:57:51,560
Kayla: It has me going back to my. The very first thing I said in the first episode of our two part Tulpa series.

1510
02:57:52,260 --> 02:57:53,560
Chris: Better know a tulpa.

1511
02:57:53,900 --> 02:58:26,326
Kayla: Better know a tulpa. This topic has me questioning the binary nature of our podcast because, again, I don't feel like that this topic neatly fits into either category because of just the way my mind and my preconceived notions were kind of challenged about tulpas once I started doing the research. But at the end of the day, everything does fit into that binary because weird is such a wonderful spectrum of a word that could be both positive or negative. And generally you or I lean towards the positive on that. And I think in this case, we're viewing tulpas in a very positive, weird light.

1512
02:58:26,438 --> 02:58:40,320
Chris: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, there's only three categories. There's cult, there's weird, and then there's wonder bread, and that's it. There's white bread. Just you eat the wonder bread, and it's the most neutral tasting thing. Everything else is weird or occult.

1513
02:58:40,400 --> 02:58:45,688
Kayla: I think wonder bread is pretty weird because if you roll it real tight and you use it as an eraser.

1514
02:58:45,864 --> 02:58:48,968
Chris: Okay, fine. Water, ph seven.

1515
02:58:49,144 --> 02:58:53,416
Kayla: Water's pretty weird. It's got microscopic shrimp in it and.

1516
02:58:53,488 --> 02:58:56,480
Chris: Water actually at a. At a molecular level.

1517
02:58:56,560 --> 02:58:57,336
Kayla: Oh, it's fucked.

1518
02:58:57,408 --> 02:59:07,390
Chris: Part of why it is like such a chemistry catalyst and is, like, required for life is because the individual water molecules are pretty fucking weird.

1519
02:59:07,470 --> 02:59:09,278
Kayla: Isn't it the only, like, it's not.

1520
02:59:09,294 --> 02:59:10,246
Chris: The only, but it's one of the.

1521
02:59:10,278 --> 02:59:13,702
Kayla: Few expands when it becomes a solid rather than contracts.

1522
02:59:13,766 --> 02:59:16,198
Chris: Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the polar nature of the molecules.

1523
02:59:16,254 --> 02:59:19,134
Kayla: No, I'm talking about elementary. It's definitely one of the only.

1524
02:59:19,182 --> 02:59:19,806
Chris: Yeah, I think so.

1525
02:59:19,838 --> 02:59:23,166
Kayla: It's not common for mal, for substances to get smaller.

1526
02:59:23,198 --> 02:59:26,650
Chris: Usually when a liquid freezes, it becomes smaller and ice goes the other way.

1527
02:59:26,690 --> 02:59:27,242
Kayla: Yeah.

1528
02:59:27,386 --> 02:59:28,090
Chris: Yeah.

1529
02:59:28,250 --> 02:59:32,226
Kayla: Well, water's weird. Everything's weird. So it's either. It's basically cold.

1530
02:59:32,258 --> 02:59:33,186
Chris: There's gotta be something.

1531
02:59:33,258 --> 02:59:38,682
Kayla: Your cult or just anything else. No, everything's weird. Name something that's not weird. You can't.

1532
02:59:38,786 --> 02:59:50,258
Chris: This wooden table that we're doing the podcast on, I guarantee you it's just plain wood. That's all it is. It's a rectangle. It's a damn wooden rectangle with no paint.

1533
02:59:50,314 --> 02:59:51,104
Kayla: Where'd it come from?

1534
02:59:51,202 --> 02:59:53,140
Chris: Ikea. Which is weird as fuck.

1535
02:59:53,180 --> 03:00:22,812
Kayla: Yes. And I actually learned a story about Ikea the other day that is very weird. And basically the reason why Ikea product names are so weird is because the, like, original founder of Ikea had dyslexia, so he couldn't, like, he just couldn't function with product names that were just, like, numbers and letters. So they're all, like, actual existing words, and they're, like, named after. Like, they're grouped. Like, know, these products are named after cities, and these products are named after people, and these products are named after different types of wood. Yeah.

1536
03:00:22,916 --> 03:00:28,284
Chris: Oh, my God. That's incredible. Yeah, well, there's gonna be something that's not weird.

1537
03:00:28,332 --> 03:00:33,676
Kayla: No, there's not. Listeners, email us and tell us something.

1538
03:00:33,748 --> 03:00:34,708
Chris: Mayonnaise is weird.

1539
03:00:34,764 --> 03:00:36,760
Kayla: Yes. It's all weird.

1540
03:00:38,300 --> 03:00:44,412
Chris: Geez. Well, that means that we'll have content for this podcast for a long time, so that's nice.

1541
03:00:44,476 --> 03:00:45,772
Kayla: But the podcast name should be changed.

1542
03:00:45,796 --> 03:01:01,740
Chris: To cult or everything else. Boy, that's catchy. Yep. Yeah. I can't wait for episode 7000 when we're saying, like, wonder bread. Cult or not that. Cult or not cult or just something else.

1543
03:01:01,860 --> 03:01:02,520
Kayla: So.

1544
03:01:04,300 --> 03:01:05,364
Chris: Tulpas. Weird.

1545
03:01:05,412 --> 03:01:06,548
Kayla: You heard it here first, folks.

1546
03:01:06,604 --> 03:01:07,396
Chris: Interesting.

1547
03:01:07,548 --> 03:01:08,636
Kayla: Tulpas are weird.

1548
03:01:08,748 --> 03:01:09,440
Chris: Yeah.

1549
03:01:09,780 --> 03:01:11,718
Kayla: I don't know how we want to sign this off.

1550
03:01:11,804 --> 03:01:14,914
Chris: Well, I want to thank all of our.

1551
03:01:14,962 --> 03:01:15,626
Kayla: Oh, my God.

1552
03:01:15,698 --> 03:01:26,746
Chris: I want to thank the tulpas the most. Not that I have anything against the hosts. Clearly you do, but whatever. Screw you. No, it's just because it's cool. Because I've never. I've talked to humans before. I've never talked to tulpas before.

1553
03:01:26,818 --> 03:01:27,458
Kayla: Right.

1554
03:01:27,634 --> 03:01:32,762
Chris: Granted, I still haven't talked to tulpas, but I feel like I have a little bit. Via your research. Right.

1555
03:01:32,786 --> 03:01:33,470
Kayla: For sure.

1556
03:01:34,170 --> 03:01:45,130
Chris: I definitely think that we need to do eventually another episode about this where we bring on what was the famous one. Yeah. Where we bring on Suksi, since she has, like, her own Twitter and everything.

1557
03:01:45,250 --> 03:01:45,930
Kayla: Tumblr.

1558
03:01:46,050 --> 03:01:55,290
Chris: Oh, okay. Tumblr. Sorry. Well, that's still pretty cool. Should definitely have her on the program. But anyway, thanks to all the tulpas. Thanks to all the hosts. Thank you for your research.

1559
03:01:55,410 --> 03:01:56,002
Kayla: You're welcome.

1560
03:01:56,066 --> 03:02:08,196
Chris: And to all of our listeners. Well, so we put out the call for creative stuff, and now you told me about tulpas. I think I'm actually full of creativeness now. I felt a distinct lack of that, talking about our previous topic.

1561
03:02:08,268 --> 03:02:08,644
Kayla: Right.

1562
03:02:08,732 --> 03:02:16,996
Chris: But now I'm full. So now we're good listeners. You don't have to do anything. Except you do need to go give us a five star review.

1563
03:02:17,148 --> 03:02:18,596
Kayla: Five stars.

1564
03:02:18,668 --> 03:02:23,692
Chris: And you need to go follow us on Twitter alterjustweird. Cause we twit good things.

1565
03:02:23,756 --> 03:02:26,400
Kayla: We do twit good things. We also ig good things.

1566
03:02:26,820 --> 03:02:55,778
Chris: Yeah, we ig things. Which I don't know what you just meant by that Instagram. Oh, yeah, we. We egg things. And we're definitely gonna egg a lot about this episode. We have tulpa art, we have tulp art, tulip art, tulpa portraits, tulportraits portraits of tulpas, tulp a, tulpists b. I don't know. Anyway, we have all that art. We have a bunch of transcript. Where you gonna shave? Where are you going to share the. The transcripts of?

1567
03:02:55,884 --> 03:03:00,990
Kayla: It'll be. I'll link to it in our show notes, and then I'll also. We'll also post it on all across our social media.

1568
03:03:01,110 --> 03:03:01,606
Chris: Great.

1569
03:03:01,718 --> 03:03:05,850
Kayla: Yeah. I'll either be Google Doc or a medium article or something like that.

1570
03:03:06,230 --> 03:03:15,110
Chris: Okay, well, anyway, this. This wonderland of which is a show is signing off because that's really what this is.

1571
03:03:15,150 --> 03:03:16,086
Kayla: It's a paracasm.

1572
03:03:16,158 --> 03:03:29,254
Chris: I'm hoping that people are, like, picturing, like, I don't know, whatever they. Whatever they want. Actually, I have no idea what wonderlands look like. I was going to say, like, I don't know, a forest with a unicorn in it, but, like, I guess it could literally be anything.

1573
03:03:29,342 --> 03:03:30,302
Kayla: Literally anything.

1574
03:03:30,446 --> 03:03:38,438
Chris: All right, so whatever you picture when you listen to us, first of all, I guarantee it's better than what we're actually doing right now.

1575
03:03:38,494 --> 03:03:39,570
Kayla: Yeah, for sure.

1576
03:03:39,990 --> 03:03:45,690
Chris: But second of all, that's great. And third of all, thanks for coming on the journey with us.

1577
03:03:46,350 --> 03:03:47,390
Kayla: I'm Kayla.

1578
03:03:47,470 --> 03:03:48,502
Chris: And I'm Chris.

1579
03:03:48,646 --> 03:03:51,332
Kayla: And this has been cult or just nothing.

1580
03:03:51,506 --> 03:04:10,140
Chris: This has been cult or literally anything else culture. Just weird. Culture. Just weird TMZ.