S1E10 - The Beauty Advisors (Mary Kay MLM)

1
00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:23,050
Kayla: No, not like that. Like this.

2
00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:24,382
Chris: Sorry.

3
00:00:24,486 --> 00:00:32,380
Kayla: Is that okay? Just so when you talk, it's more at this. Okay, now we're recording.

4
00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:36,052
Chris: Welcome to 1% invisible.

5
00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:38,360
Kayla: I'm gonna stop doing this podcast with you.

6
00:00:38,780 --> 00:00:40,320
Chris: I'm Greek Aries.

7
00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:45,580
Kayla: I don't know if Greek Aries sounds as good as Roman Mars.

8
00:00:45,620 --> 00:00:54,438
Chris: It doesn't. It doesn't. But he's already that, so I. You know, I have to take the scraps. Do you even want to be here?

9
00:00:54,494 --> 00:00:58,490
Kayla: Nope. I'm hungry, tired. I'm hot.

10
00:00:59,430 --> 00:01:06,502
Chris: I mean, is okay. It's the most depressing banter, if that's what this is.

11
00:01:06,566 --> 00:01:07,814
Kayla: I didn't know we started already.

12
00:01:07,902 --> 00:01:09,094
Chris: Well, you said were recording.

13
00:01:09,142 --> 00:01:12,302
Kayla: Yeah, but recording isn't necessarily a one to one. As long as you need time to get ready.

14
00:01:12,366 --> 00:01:16,570
Chris: Fair. You gotta warm up, get into it. What's on your mind?

15
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:18,920
Kayla: Hungry.

16
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,900
Chris: Hungry. Okay. So what do you want to do for dinner?

17
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,648
Kayla: Why are we doing. Why are we doing this?

18
00:01:25,744 --> 00:01:26,864
Chris: I don't know. This is banter.

19
00:01:26,992 --> 00:01:28,320
Kayla: This is not banter.

20
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:34,312
Chris: Well, then banter. I'm trying desperately. I'm asking you questions, and you're like, good. Huh. Yep.

21
00:01:34,376 --> 00:01:35,408
Kayla: I don't like that banter.

22
00:01:35,504 --> 00:01:38,860
Chris: Huh. So why don't you ask me a question?

23
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,496
Kayla: Here's an intro for you.

24
00:01:40,608 --> 00:01:41,460
Chris: Okay.

25
00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:50,790
Kayla: Why are you so lucky that you get to do two episodes in a row? Two different episodes in a row.

26
00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:54,938
Chris: Wait, why is that luck? I consider that to be a burden.

27
00:01:55,034 --> 00:01:57,226
Kayla: Well, it just means the people get to hear you more.

28
00:01:57,378 --> 00:02:01,858
Chris: Oh, that's true. Well, the people want to hear me more. You got your teal episode was two.

29
00:02:01,994 --> 00:02:12,256
Kayla: I know, but that was two parts of the same episode. You're doing two different episodes. You're doing the intro episode and then the first episode of a series.

30
00:02:12,328 --> 00:02:33,504
Chris: Okay, right. But last episode, which. Which, just in case you're. By the way, if you're jumping in, this is like, the first episode you listen to on our podcast. I highly recommend that you go back to the previous episode and listen to that one first, because this episode is actually the second part in a million part series. I don't know.

31
00:02:33,592 --> 00:02:34,704
Kayla: Non sequential series.

32
00:02:34,792 --> 00:02:35,896
Chris: Non sequential series.

33
00:02:35,968 --> 00:02:40,056
Kayla: It's basically a corner. It's like a. We're gonna have MLM Corner.

34
00:02:40,128 --> 00:02:44,288
Chris: MLM Corner. Right. Lmm corner with your host, Chris and Kayla.

35
00:02:44,344 --> 00:02:50,704
Kayla: Podcast within a podcast. And maybe we'll even get a podcast within a podcast.

36
00:02:50,872 --> 00:02:52,624
Chris: I don't know what even that would be.

37
00:02:52,752 --> 00:02:54,512
Kayla: It's. If there's some sort of.

38
00:02:54,616 --> 00:03:16,206
Chris: If we get Jane Marie on the show to talk about her podcast. Okay. Yeah. But, yes, that's. That's why we're doing two in a row is because we're really here to talk about today's topic. But we had to do a whole episode of kind of lead in to understand how MLMs work and what makes them so.

39
00:03:16,358 --> 00:03:18,182
Kayla: MLM stands for multi level marketing.

40
00:03:18,246 --> 00:03:18,758
Chris: Gross.

41
00:03:18,854 --> 00:03:20,462
Kayla: I think you probably know that it does.

42
00:03:20,566 --> 00:03:39,754
Chris: Yes. And it goes by many other names, such as direct sales or network marketing, because they like to brand themselves different ways to kind of keep escaping the ire of people who notice, like us. Mm. Yeah. So this time on weird or just religion?

43
00:03:39,842 --> 00:03:41,522
Kayla: No, it's culture. Just weird.

44
00:03:41,666 --> 00:03:45,762
Chris: Well, you just said we're rebranding to kind of like to dodge people, though. So what are we gonna rebrand?

45
00:03:45,786 --> 00:03:48,586
Kayla: Oh, I meant they were rebranding to dodge people like us.

46
00:03:48,738 --> 00:03:50,978
Chris: Oh, yeah. They definitely care about us.

47
00:03:50,994 --> 00:03:51,610
Kayla: They care about us.

48
00:03:51,650 --> 00:03:53,090
Chris: First and foremost, we're big time.

49
00:03:53,170 --> 00:03:55,218
Kayla: I'm speaking of us. I'm Kayla.

50
00:03:55,274 --> 00:03:55,922
Chris: And I'm Chris.

51
00:03:55,986 --> 00:04:06,514
Kayla: And this is culture. Just weird. Yes, we are. I don't know how many episodes in, and we still haven't quite nailed the intro to the podcast, and I hope we never do.

52
00:04:06,602 --> 00:04:10,274
Chris: No, I don't think we ever will, frankly. I mean, I guess we can sit down and figure it out, but I.

53
00:04:10,282 --> 00:04:11,306
Kayla: Don'T want to do that.

54
00:04:11,458 --> 00:04:13,730
Chris: Yeah, that's, I'd rather play video games.

55
00:04:13,810 --> 00:04:14,430
Kayla: Same.

56
00:04:14,850 --> 00:05:02,586
Chris: But, yeah, so I guess this is the second. So welcome to culture. Just weird. But also welcome to the second part of our MLM corner, which, I don't know, we'll call it apples, oranges, and roses. So if you ruin all of those things for me. Well, I mean. So, actually, let me go back to the topic of last. Just hopefully, you go back and listen to that whole last episode we did. But as a recap for you guys, since it, you know, gets a little complex, I'll just give you some of the basic facts and tenets of Mlmsen. If you are listening to this, if you're, like, binging this stuff all in a row, then you might want to fast forward, like, 20 seconds, because this is basically just copy pasting from last time, like a boss.

57
00:05:02,738 --> 00:05:40,830
Chris: But anyway, the first basic fact that you should know about mlms, is it normal? We just sort of talked about the metaphorical oranges, apples, and roses. Well, what I mean by that is your normal businesses will exchange things that they make value that they create for money, and then that's how they create value. Right. That's how they're a legitimate business. And that's like. Sort of like the apples and oranges metaphor, right? I trade you apples for your oranges. Mlms, however, are more designed about transferring wealth up and down a structure of recruits, or that looks like a. I don't know. What are those things in Egypt called?

58
00:05:41,450 --> 00:05:42,138
Kayla: Pyramids.

59
00:05:42,194 --> 00:05:56,594
Chris: Oh, yeah, like that. And they use these, again, in the. In the metaphor, they use these roses to sort of tokenize the process. Right. So that's their products. Now, as you mentioned last episode, sometimes these products can be very good, actually. Like.

60
00:05:56,642 --> 00:05:57,042
Kayla: Right.

61
00:05:57,146 --> 00:06:43,998
Chris: You know, it varies. It's all across the spectrum from just like trash to good products. But that's trash to treasure. But it doesn't change the fact that fundamentally, the network recruiting model creates this. This shape that looks like a monument in Egypt. So that's the first thing, actually. The second thing is. Yes? Is that they emphasize recruiting, and then that exponential nature is what makes it mathematically, inescapably fraudulent. Third is that this is less of a. Like a, you know, a descriptor, and more of just like a fact to keep in mind is that less than 1% of the people that get involved as distributors for an MLM do better than break even.

62
00:06:44,174 --> 00:06:47,070
Kayla: Less than one person, less than 1%.

63
00:06:47,190 --> 00:07:38,654
Chris: Less if you're in it for something other than money. Okay, fine. We talked a little bit about that, particularly with women in the workforce or women not being able to participate in the workforce as much. MLMs can fulfill some of those same needs, but if you're in it for money, you're better off going to Vegas, literally, mathematically. So by quite a bit, actually. The other thing to keep in mind, MLMs employ a lot of crazy psychological techniques to maintain the flow of people into the scheme, because once they lose that flow of people into the scheme, they essentially lose their main source of revenue, which is their own distributors. So they use a lot of techniques to recruit that, including the selling of that financial independence dream. They use pep rallies, they use carefully constructed language, and sometimes they even use bully tactics.

64
00:07:38,702 --> 00:07:46,590
Chris: And that. I'm specifically referencing the thing we talked about where they'll say, hey, if you don't, you know, you can't do it's your own damn fault.

65
00:07:46,630 --> 00:07:47,910
Kayla: You have no one to blame but yourself.

66
00:07:47,990 --> 00:07:48,302
Chris: Right.

67
00:07:48,366 --> 00:07:55,510
Kayla: This is a foolproof system. You just gotta have the passionate energy. Clearly, if you can't hack it, you're not a passionate, high energy individual.

68
00:07:55,590 --> 00:07:56,102
Chris: Exactly.

69
00:07:56,166 --> 00:07:58,038
Kayla: You do not have that entrepreneurial spirit.

70
00:07:58,134 --> 00:08:14,654
Chris: And how do they get away with all this? They use a combination of propaganda, which is to maintain this whole illusion with the general population. And then they also use lobbying, which is also to maintain illusion, but in this case, for the law. So Mlms.

71
00:08:14,742 --> 00:08:15,570
Kayla: Mlms.

72
00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:24,964
Chris: And remember, we also talked quite a bit about the airplane game, which was the literal pyramid scheme that was popular in social circles around the eighties.

73
00:08:25,142 --> 00:08:27,776
Kayla: And I'm definitely doing it right.

74
00:08:27,808 --> 00:08:39,511
Chris: And you really want to do it because for some reason you, like, want to get in trouble with the law. But, yeah, so. And then that. Remember that one lady used that sort of token rose to lightly whitewash the scam? Total genius.

75
00:08:39,535 --> 00:08:42,256
Kayla: Lady artist. A con artist. If you.

76
00:08:42,288 --> 00:08:57,642
Chris: Con artist. Yeah, but, yeah. So that's kind of where that whole metaphor that we've been using kind of comes from. So all of that brings us finally to our first MLM of our little mini series.

77
00:08:57,826 --> 00:08:59,554
Kayla: What did you pick?

78
00:08:59,682 --> 00:09:05,842
Chris: The keeper of the pink, the consultants of beauty, the Mary Kay Cosmetics company.

79
00:09:05,946 --> 00:09:13,310
Kayla: God bless. When you said pink in the previous episode, it, like, it made me think of Susan G. Komen.

80
00:09:13,690 --> 00:09:14,738
Chris: Well, they're not an MLM.

81
00:09:14,754 --> 00:09:17,280
Kayla: They're not an MLM. Please don't do that.

82
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:24,976
Chris: It's actually interesting that you say that, because both Susan G. Komen and Mary Kay are very. They're well known for their usage of pink.

83
00:09:25,168 --> 00:09:26,352
Kayla: That's what made me think of it.

84
00:09:26,416 --> 00:09:26,776
Chris: Yeah.

85
00:09:26,848 --> 00:09:32,120
Kayla: But, yeah, now that you say it, Mary Kay Pink. I love it. This is exciting.

86
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,420
Chris: Yes. On the show for you today, we have some very special treats.

87
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,136
Kayla: Oh, you said, you mentioned this last.

88
00:09:39,168 --> 00:09:39,288
Nancy: Yeah.

89
00:09:39,304 --> 00:09:40,328
Kayla: You said you did interviews.

90
00:09:40,384 --> 00:09:53,384
Chris: Mm. Yep. We're gonna play some interviews for you. The first time in the show, I'm going to give you a quick overview and history of the company first, and then we're going to hear from two people. Firstly.

91
00:09:53,512 --> 00:09:57,280
Kayla: Okay, sorry. Go. I know, I know. Yes. I know. Now.

92
00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,008
Chris: Right. You know why I interviewed my mom now.

93
00:09:59,064 --> 00:09:59,700
Kayla: Yes.

94
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:15,124
Chris: So, firstly, a former beauty consultant and director level distributor who did this for five years in the early eighties, and secondly, a former distributor as well, who did it more in the, like, in the late nineties or early two thousands, if I recall.

95
00:10:15,172 --> 00:10:15,788
Kayla: Okay.

96
00:10:15,924 --> 00:10:18,932
Chris: And is currently an activist in the MLM space.

97
00:10:19,036 --> 00:10:20,172
Kayla: Oh, shit.

98
00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:21,476
Chris: Are you excited?

99
00:10:21,628 --> 00:10:25,520
Kayla: I mean. No. No. Yeah.

100
00:10:26,540 --> 00:10:30,676
Chris: Good. Let's then let's call it. Hopefully our listeners are.

101
00:10:30,708 --> 00:10:33,772
Kayla: This is a perfect opportunity for a joke. This is not gonna be in it. I'm gonna cut it out.

102
00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:34,604
Chris: No, don't cut this.

103
00:10:34,652 --> 00:10:35,540
Kayla: I'm going to.

104
00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:37,508
Chris: Especially now that you're gonna attack me like this.

105
00:10:37,564 --> 00:10:37,756
Kayla: Yeah.

106
00:10:37,788 --> 00:10:38,780
Chris: Please keep this part in.

107
00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:39,868
Kayla: Very excited.

108
00:10:40,004 --> 00:10:43,200
Chris: First of all, please keep that part in, though. You know what? Actually, I'm editing this one.

109
00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:52,724
Kayla: I'm very excited to hear your mom's experience, because I know that she did this, but I don't know anything about her experience doing it.

110
00:10:52,812 --> 00:11:24,590
Chris: Before I interviewed her, I had a similar. That was kind of where my head was, too. I knew she did it. Tiny little baby kid. I kind of remember some of the. I don't know. I think she had a sticker on the car, but I didn't really know anything about it. And then I was really lucky to talk to this other lady, as well, which we'll get into. So, this episode, it was super easy to decide what to talk to you about first, because, I mean, first of all, we always sort of talk about the charismatic leaders first anyway.

111
00:11:24,670 --> 00:11:25,150
Kayla: Right.

112
00:11:25,270 --> 00:11:29,358
Chris: And in this case, her name is the company, so it's, like, kind of the obvious starting point.

113
00:11:29,414 --> 00:11:31,982
Kayla: There's actually a person named Mary Kay.

114
00:11:32,126 --> 00:11:33,302
Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah.

115
00:11:33,366 --> 00:11:33,990
Kayla: I had no idea.

116
00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:34,294
Chris: Oh.

117
00:11:34,342 --> 00:11:35,158
Kayla: I just assumed it was a.

118
00:11:35,214 --> 00:11:39,450
Chris: Not only is there a person named Mary Kay, she is as charismatic as they come.

119
00:11:39,870 --> 00:11:41,450
Kayla: Do I want to do Mary Kay?

120
00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:57,774
Chris: I don't know. Withhold that until we're done with this episode. I guess it kind of depends on who you ask. But let me tell you about Mary Kay, please. Our charismatic leader, Mary Kay Wagner, was born May 12, 1918, in hot wells, Texas.

121
00:11:57,862 --> 00:11:58,702
Kayla: Damn, girl.

122
00:11:58,806 --> 00:12:27,552
Chris: A state where she lived her whole life, which was actually more mostly in Houston and Dallas, which I believe that's where Mary Kay is headquartered now, in Dallas. She married early, or maybe. Maybe this wasn't early, you know, earlier in the century, but she married at age 17, had three children, all with her first husband. In her early career, she was a working mother but also a homemaker, and she worked at a home products company. So one of the things that she did with this home products company is conduct home parties to sell their goods.

123
00:12:27,616 --> 00:12:29,928
Kayla: Ooh. Was that, like, original?

124
00:12:30,064 --> 00:12:30,608
Chris: Interesting.

125
00:12:30,664 --> 00:12:31,934
Kayla: Melmore.

126
00:12:31,972 --> 00:12:41,178
Chris: Well, I mean, as if you recall from last episode, or did we even talk about this, that home parties is, like, one of the things that a lot of mlms use to sell their products.

127
00:12:41,314 --> 00:12:44,514
Kayla: Do any mlms not use that, like. No, truly?

128
00:12:44,602 --> 00:12:49,530
Chris: I think some. I mean, like, you know, these days, there's a lot of usage of, like, social media.

129
00:12:49,610 --> 00:12:50,218
Kayla: Right, right.

130
00:12:50,274 --> 00:13:06,120
Chris: Some of our listeners probably have gotten, like, a, hey, girl, you want to be a boss ass, babe, and sell these oils? So I think that's a thing now. But really, bread and butter for this stuff? Selling it is selling it to your family and friends via these parties.

131
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,460
Kayla: And, like, I mean, have you ever been to any sort of MLM party?

132
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:18,000
Chris: I sat around when I was a kid at some MLM party. It might have been. I think it was pampered chef.

133
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,848
Kayla: Okay, right? Pampered chef is.

134
00:13:19,864 --> 00:13:22,592
Chris: I remember, like, they were, like, demonstrating these products. I was like, cool.

135
00:13:22,656 --> 00:13:24,040
Kayla: I know. Same.

136
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,566
Chris: Heals cores and slices the apple. Holy shit.

137
00:13:27,688 --> 00:13:43,194
Kayla: Well, it just. It also makes me think of when I was. I don't know if I've told you this before, but, like, when I. When I don't know how old I was, but my. One of my friends was turning, I think it was her 16th birthday. And my piano teacher, I guess, also did. I think. I think it was Avon. It might have been Mary Kay.

138
00:13:43,242 --> 00:13:45,306
Chris: Avon's, like, as Og as it gets.

139
00:13:45,338 --> 00:13:59,772
Kayla: It was either Avon or Mary Kay. I forget. And so she, my friend's birthday party was literally this. This lady coming over and, like, doing a party for us teenagers, and she, like, taught us, she taught us how to do makeup. She, like, showed us.

140
00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:04,068
Chris: Your friend's birthday party was an MLM. It was really fun sales party.

141
00:14:04,124 --> 00:14:16,172
Kayla: But it's like were all, like, 1516. Like, none of us could buy anything. So there wasn't, like, any sort of high pressure sales. Maybe there's. There might have been high pressure sales. My mom. I have no idea. I might have bought. I don't know.

142
00:14:16,196 --> 00:14:24,162
Chris: But, like, was there anything said, like, hey, girls, when, you know, when you're 18 or when you graduate high school, if you need a job?

143
00:14:24,306 --> 00:14:49,950
Kayla: I think it was really being done more as, like, a favor rather than as, like, a true party. Like, it was a. Hey, I do, as a consultant, forgive me being skeptical. As a consultant, I do this thing. How fun to go teach a bunch of teenage girls how to properly do their makeup, and maybe I'll get some money. I don't know. There probably was some incentive there, but I still use some of the techniques she taught, and that was half my life ago.

144
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:51,168
Chris: That's interesting.

145
00:14:51,224 --> 00:14:57,168
Kayla: I know. It was really fun. There's pictures from it. I'll see if I can find some pictures from it and we can use it for our.

146
00:14:57,264 --> 00:15:15,816
Chris: Yeah, actually. And please find out whether it was. If you can find out whether it was Mary Kay or Avon. They both use similar techniques. And actually, there's others, many other mlms out there that are makeup related, and they also use that technique of, you know, somebody coming to your house, throwing a party, and then doing your makeup for you.

147
00:15:15,848 --> 00:15:16,730
Kayla: Right, right. I.

148
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:29,102
Chris: And it's like, oh, it makes you feel good and teaches you how to do this and that and the other. So, anyway, that's something that Mary Kay, at the time, early in the 20th century, was sort of pioneering. This.

149
00:15:29,166 --> 00:15:30,942
Kayla: That's really cool.

150
00:15:31,046 --> 00:16:12,654
Chris: Yeah. She rose because of this, sort of this and just her general energy and everything. She rose to become a manager at this company, but she ended up moving on to a different consumer goods company called World Gifts in 1952, after her first marriage ended at this company, she was a very high performer and even developed her own sales training techniques involving sales incentives. Incentives. However, it was also at this company that the straw finally broke the camel's back. She had been getting very frustrated with the way she and just women in general had been. Had been being treated in the workforce.

151
00:16:12,742 --> 00:16:13,958
Kayla: Understandable.

152
00:16:14,094 --> 00:16:40,070
Chris: She'd been dealing with this for her entire career. She was obviously very smart and high energy and ambitious because she was developing her own shit as she was working here. But it was at this company that she witnessed the promotion of several men to higher positions and salaries than her, men that had far less senior. Wait, wait. Men that had far less seniority than her. And, in fact, she herself trained.

153
00:16:40,410 --> 00:16:41,858
Kayla: Yeah, that still happens.

154
00:16:41,954 --> 00:16:44,546
Chris: Yeah. So that still happens. But she was like, fuck this.

155
00:16:44,618 --> 00:16:45,730
Kayla: Yeah. Understandable.

156
00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:48,870
Chris: So she ended up leaving the company.

157
00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:50,226
Nancy: Good.

158
00:16:50,338 --> 00:17:01,110
Chris: She initially wanted to write a book about her experience in the workforce, but instead decided to start a company. And in 1963, at the age of 45.

159
00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:03,516
Kayla: Don't say that like, it's super old.

160
00:17:03,708 --> 00:17:04,996
Chris: For starting a company.

161
00:17:05,108 --> 00:17:05,756
Kayla: Is it?

162
00:17:05,867 --> 00:17:11,667
Chris: I don't know. I feel like entrepreneurs are like, oh, like, Mark Zuckerberg is, like, 19 and blah, blah.

163
00:17:11,804 --> 00:17:13,732
Kayla: Well, for, like, tech, sure.

164
00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:26,044
Chris: But I don't know what I just think. I'm not saying that as, like, oh, man, she's so old. Like, 40. Five's not old. But it does feel like, you know, you're midway through your life, you're starting a company. That's pretty great.

165
00:17:26,092 --> 00:17:26,684
Kayla: It is great.

166
00:17:26,771 --> 00:17:29,670
Chris: It's demonstrative that, like, you don't. You can start a company whenever you want.

167
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:30,302
Kayla: Right, right.

168
00:17:30,366 --> 00:17:34,182
Chris: You can quit even if you've had, like, two really successful jobs.

169
00:17:34,246 --> 00:17:34,638
Kayla: Right.

170
00:17:34,734 --> 00:17:46,934
Chris: But, you know, you're frustrated for obvious reasons, and you can go do your own thing. I mean, I don't know. Maybe you also have to be Mary Kay to be successful at it. But point is, she was 45 when she finally started. Mary Kay. I thought that was interesting.

171
00:17:46,982 --> 00:17:48,118
Kayla: That is interesting.

172
00:17:48,294 --> 00:18:12,468
Chris: She started with an investment of $5,000 from her oldest son, and she used it to buy rights to a beauty cream. And she started beauty by Mary Kaye. So part of the philosophy with this new company was actually to help solve these problems that she encountered in the workplace as a woman. So the Mary Kay company made it their mission to basically to give women, to help give women opportunities to succeed on their own terms.

173
00:18:12,604 --> 00:18:14,052
Kayla: This is really great.

174
00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:20,540
Chris: While still being able to be a devoted wife and mother. So she was still very much into that sort of, like, traditional, because she was very christian.

175
00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:21,240
Kayla: Sure.

176
00:18:21,660 --> 00:18:54,690
Chris: And the company carries that sort of ethos with it today. I believe their motto is like, God first, family second, Mary Kay third, or work third or something. So they still have that. And we mentioned that last time that a lot of these MLMs actually do have sort of a Christian flavor to them. But, yeah. So the rest is sort of history. Mary Kay cosmetics went on to become one of the biggest success stories in 20th century american business. There's a Mary Kay foundation now that uses charitable donations to combat domestic violence and cancers that affect women. Started by Mary Kay herself, of course. I believe in the nineties.

177
00:18:55,070 --> 00:18:57,302
Kayla: I'm not. So far, I'm not hearing anything.

178
00:18:57,446 --> 00:18:58,494
Chris: Well, she's charismatic.

179
00:18:58,582 --> 00:19:02,174
Kayla: Really negative about charismatic, though. The foundations of this company.

180
00:19:02,262 --> 00:19:03,230
Chris: Sure, sure.

181
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:05,830
Kayla: Like, charisma itself is not a negative quality.

182
00:19:05,870 --> 00:19:07,878
Chris: No. But for the criteria.

183
00:19:07,974 --> 00:19:08,950
Kayla: Right. No, I agree.

184
00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:11,078
Chris: There's a separate criteria for harm.

185
00:19:11,214 --> 00:19:12,206
Kayla: Yes, true.

186
00:19:12,318 --> 00:19:35,880
Chris: Right. This is charisma, and she is quite charismatic. I mean, aside from all of this, like, you know, goody goodness that she does, which is for sure there. She's also pretty like a pretty charismatic person. She started the Mary Kay foundation herself, and that was on the heels of lifelong charitable contributions that she would make just to various causes. She's written three books about her life and philosophy and approach to business.

187
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,592
Kayla: I'm going to go out immediately and read them.

188
00:19:38,696 --> 00:20:00,150
Chris: Yeah, you've probably heard of them. One of them is called the Mary Kay way. One of them is called you can have it all. I forget what the third one's called are off the top. I didn't write them down, but maybe we can link to them in the show notes. And she's gotten some random awards and things like that. So, for example, she's been named greatest female entrepreneur of the 20th century by Baylor University.

189
00:20:00,770 --> 00:20:02,210
Kayla: That's extremely cool.

190
00:20:02,290 --> 00:20:16,578
Chris: And then in some sort of collaboration that I didn't really understand, but I guess PBS and my very own University of Pennsylvania's Wharton school, she was named one of the 25 most important business persons of the past 25 years.

191
00:20:16,634 --> 00:20:19,514
Kayla: Hell, yeah. Get it? Mary Kay.

192
00:20:19,602 --> 00:20:20,458
Chris: That's a short list.

193
00:20:20,514 --> 00:20:23,386
Kayla: She's my hero. She is.

194
00:20:23,498 --> 00:20:38,870
Chris: And this was in 2004 that they did this. So the 25 years before that, I guess. Okay. It's actually the year after I graduated Penn, so. I don't know. Weird. I guess we can cut that part. Cause that doesn't make sense. I don't know why I wrote that. Just, like, 2004. That was a year after I graduated.

195
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,504
Kayla: Isn't 2004 the year you graduated college?

196
00:20:41,552 --> 00:20:43,472
Chris: This year I graduated from UF business school.

197
00:20:43,496 --> 00:20:44,880
Kayla: You only went to Uf for a year?

198
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,984
Chris: Yeah, year and a half. Cause we started in the summer.

199
00:20:47,032 --> 00:20:49,840
Kayla: Wait, how did you only go for a year to grad school?

200
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:50,990
Chris: It was a year and a half.

201
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,152
Kayla: How did you only go to grad school for a year?

202
00:20:53,176 --> 00:21:17,052
Chris: Because that was the only. That was how long the program was most, like, legit mbas are only, like, two years. This is just, like, a compressed version of that. Yeah. And as I mentioned, she's gotten a bunch of other similar mentions and awards, just, like, a bunch of random stuff that would take too long to list here. As for the company themselves, well, they're an MLM that sells makeup to consumers, and, of course, they also sell a dream to its distributors like any other MLM.

203
00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:17,772
Kayla: Right.

204
00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:27,404
Chris: In my research, I've seen the company's product described along a whole spectrum, all the way from it's okay to some of the very best in the industry.

205
00:21:27,572 --> 00:21:33,162
Kayla: Yeah. Their makeup is, like, as far as I know. And from my experience, like, their makeup's quality makeup.

206
00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:38,622
Chris: I've seen it. Like I said, I have heard that, and I have also heard less than that.

207
00:21:38,686 --> 00:21:39,290
Kayla: Right.

208
00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:49,446
Chris: They went public in 1968, only five years after starting. But keep this in mind. They, in 1985, went back to private.

209
00:21:49,598 --> 00:21:50,650
Kayla: Interesting.

210
00:21:51,390 --> 00:21:53,134
Chris: And these days, most.

211
00:21:53,302 --> 00:21:54,718
Kayla: Haven't some, like, tech companies done that.

212
00:21:54,734 --> 00:22:25,100
Chris: Recently, companies have talked, like, Elon Musk said he wanted to do that with Tesla, but it's like. I mean, it's hard to do. Okay. But it's for, you know, there's a lot of companies also that are just, like, still private. And there's. There's the criticism for that is, like, once you get big enough. Okay, if you're still private, why are you still private? Like, what are you hiding? And actually. So I was just gonna say most mlms today are private because that means they don't have to disclose as much information.

213
00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:25,772
Kayla: Gotcha.

214
00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:28,692
Chris: If you're a public company, there's, like, all this stuff that you have to disclose.

215
00:22:28,756 --> 00:22:29,680
Kayla: Right, right.

216
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:43,756
Chris: Also, interestingly, Fortune magazine. At some point, I couldn't figure out when, like, I saw this in a few places, and I, for the life of me, could not figure out when they said this, but they named Mary Kay one of the hundred best companies to work for. Now, I don't know whether that.

217
00:22:43,788 --> 00:22:44,532
Kayla: Do they mean, like.

218
00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:48,044
Chris: Yeah, yeah. I don't know whether they mean, like, the corporate office.

219
00:22:48,132 --> 00:22:48,500
Kayla: Right.

220
00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:51,236
Chris: Or as a distributor. That was not clear to me.

221
00:22:51,428 --> 00:22:57,032
Kayla: Because, again, if you work for an MLM, quote unquote, as a distributor, you technically don't want work for them.

222
00:22:57,056 --> 00:22:57,560
Chris: No. You don't.

223
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:58,416
Kayla: You're not an employee.

224
00:22:58,488 --> 00:23:00,624
Chris: Nope. They are supporting you and your business.

225
00:23:00,712 --> 00:23:04,336
Kayla: Right. You're your own business, and you just get the products from there.

226
00:23:04,408 --> 00:23:15,464
Chris: Yep. And in 2015, which is the last year for which this data apparently exists, that I could find, they had 3.7 billion in revenue globally.

227
00:23:15,552 --> 00:23:17,496
Kayla: Jeez. With a b?

228
00:23:17,568 --> 00:23:22,368
Chris: With a b, they employed 5000 staff. So that's, again, working for corporate.

229
00:23:22,424 --> 00:23:25,252
Kayla: Okay. That's a lot of people to work for corporate.

230
00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:41,596
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And. And some of those are actually, like, you know, they're. They're working on. So, one of the things we're talking about is, like, quality of products and whatnot. They. They do, I think, employ people. I was reading. They do employ people that are, like, you know, chemists and biochemists and whatnot to actually, like, develop new products.

231
00:23:41,668 --> 00:23:44,556
Kayla: So they, like. They make the makeup?

232
00:23:44,748 --> 00:23:49,692
Chris: I don't know if they, like, contracted out, but I think that they probably. It sounded like they designed the makeup.

233
00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:50,624
Kayla: Okay. Okay.

234
00:23:50,692 --> 00:23:52,696
Chris: I don't know if they actually manufacture it.

235
00:23:52,728 --> 00:23:53,344
Kayla: Got it.

236
00:23:53,472 --> 00:23:59,504
Chris: And 3.5 million beauty consultants across the globe.

237
00:23:59,672 --> 00:24:00,568
Kayla: That's a lot.

238
00:24:00,704 --> 00:24:01,368
Chris: That's a lot.

239
00:24:01,424 --> 00:24:02,088
Kayla: That's a lot.

240
00:24:02,184 --> 00:24:04,168
Chris: That's a fuck ton.

241
00:24:04,224 --> 00:24:05,016
Kayla: That's a lot of people.

242
00:24:05,128 --> 00:24:10,592
Chris: Yeah. So think about that when you think about how big, like, a quote unquote normal company is.

243
00:24:10,696 --> 00:24:12,184
Kayla: How big is a quote unquote normal company?

244
00:24:12,232 --> 00:24:21,358
Chris: Well, it's more like in the thousands, right? I mean, it depends on how your global reach and whether you're retail or not or whatever. But it's not 3.5 million, like, that's a lot.

245
00:24:21,454 --> 00:24:31,590
Kayla: Now, I know you're probably going to get to this, but I just have to ask, of that 3.5 million, are you telling me that only 0.1% of those people make any sort of profit?

246
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:36,318
Chris: So the 0.1% number is for the MLM industry as a whole?

247
00:24:36,414 --> 00:24:38,478
Kayla: Is there a different number specifically for Mary Kay?

248
00:24:38,614 --> 00:24:58,704
Chris: I was not able to find one specifically for Mary Kay. And I doubt that one exists because it is probably pretty likely that the only way to arrive at a number like that is to aggregate data across the industry because individual companies are so reticent about sharing data. So for me to say whether it's higher or lower for Mary Kay would be speculation.

249
00:24:58,792 --> 00:24:59,136
Kayla: Got it.

250
00:24:59,168 --> 00:25:16,122
Chris: I don't know, but, yeah. So that's quite a bit. Also, I've mentioned beauty consultants a few times. That's their branded name for their distributors. They call them beauty consultants. So that is the charismatic leader, at least her history, and a bit about her company.

251
00:25:16,266 --> 00:25:19,698
Kayla: I am sold. I love her.

252
00:25:19,794 --> 00:25:25,794
Chris: Well, let's get some more info, because we need to also talk about the other criteria. Of course, can we not?

253
00:25:25,842 --> 00:25:28,170
Kayla: I don't want to have my illusion shattered.

254
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:30,466
Chris: Well, it's complicated.

255
00:25:30,538 --> 00:25:31,314
Kayla: Okay.

256
00:25:31,482 --> 00:25:45,498
Chris: And of course, there's more to Mary Kay cosmetics than just the charismatic leader. But since I'm lazy and mostly illiterate at this point, thanks to phone games and weed, I decided to ask someone who has a firsthand account of the company to describe her experience for us.

257
00:25:45,554 --> 00:25:47,282
Kayla: Can I say who it is? Because I know.

258
00:25:47,386 --> 00:25:48,746
Chris: Well, I mean, we already said it.

259
00:25:48,818 --> 00:25:50,658
Kayla: Oh, yeah, I guess that's true. Never mind. I'm not so happy. But.

260
00:25:50,674 --> 00:25:54,002
Chris: No, go ahead. Go ahead. Drop that. Drop that bomb.

261
00:25:54,106 --> 00:25:54,770
Kayla: Your mom.

262
00:25:54,890 --> 00:25:55,590
Chris: Yeah.

263
00:25:55,930 --> 00:25:56,882
Kayla: Who's amazing.

264
00:25:56,986 --> 00:25:57,338
Chris: Yeah.

265
00:25:57,394 --> 00:25:58,162
Kayla: And wonderful.

266
00:25:58,266 --> 00:26:08,046
Chris: Yes. So we are starting to really pretend hard at this journalism stuff because we're doing real interviews now with your mom. With. Well, hey, she was a.

267
00:26:08,118 --> 00:26:09,014
Kayla: She was a beauty consultant.

268
00:26:09,062 --> 00:26:15,366
Chris: She was not only a beauty consultant, but she was also a former sales director. So she actually did very well.

269
00:26:15,438 --> 00:26:16,142
Kayla: What does that mean?

270
00:26:16,206 --> 00:26:27,118
Chris: I think she says what that means. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, without further ado, here's my interview with former Mary Kay beauty consultant and sales director Nancy Carlson.

271
00:26:27,294 --> 00:26:29,246
Kayla: Did you get her permission to say her first and last name?

272
00:26:29,318 --> 00:26:57,020
Chris: I did not. I will do that before we publish. Here she is. So I'm gonna pull up my notes. These questions, you don't have to answer them exactly. They're more of a guide than a script. So feel free to Adlib or go on tangents. So, with that, thank you for being on the show. How are you today?

273
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,718
Nancy: I'm doing well, thank you. Looking forward to sharing my stories about Mary Kayden.

274
00:27:01,764 --> 00:27:14,910
Chris: The first question about was actually going to ask just for context for our listeners. You're my own mother, so I think I would probably know everything I need to know. But can you tell us a bit about yourself for our listeners?

275
00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:28,660
Nancy: Well, my name is Nancy, and I have two sons, Chris and Sean. I live in Orlando, Florida. Married almost 45 years, work at Walt Disney World.

276
00:27:28,810 --> 00:27:30,220
Chris: How long have you worked at Disney?

277
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:31,688
Nancy: 23 years.

278
00:27:31,784 --> 00:27:33,544
Chris: Wow. And what do you do there?

279
00:27:33,712 --> 00:27:40,632
Nancy: I manage a team of technical writers who write technical documentation for maintenance of the attractions.

280
00:27:40,776 --> 00:27:45,024
Chris: Okay. So that's, like, all the rides and all the shows as well?

281
00:27:45,192 --> 00:27:46,840
Nancy: We don't do the shows. We just do the rides.

282
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:55,016
Chris: The rides. Okay. And that's, like, how to turn the machines on and turn them off and what you should do in emergency situations. Is that correct?

283
00:27:55,048 --> 00:27:58,984
Nancy: Right, yeah. And procedures to keep the, what we call cast members safe.

284
00:27:59,072 --> 00:28:00,608
Chris: Got it. How big is your team?

285
00:28:00,784 --> 00:28:01,720
Nancy: Twelve riders.

286
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,260
Chris: Got it. What did you do before Disney?

287
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:16,752
Nancy: When I first came out of college, I worked at General Electric, and then when I moved to Florida, I was a stay at home mom for several years, which will probably lead into.

288
00:28:16,856 --> 00:28:19,540
Chris: Oh, I remember that because that was me.

289
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,784
Nancy: That was my fault.

290
00:28:20,832 --> 00:28:21,288
Kayla: Your brother.

291
00:28:21,344 --> 00:28:30,242
Nancy: Yep. Decided to. I decided to make that part of my career, being a stay at home mom and volunteering and just being here for my children.

292
00:28:30,346 --> 00:28:34,994
Chris: I remember you were secretly the mascot of my elementary school. I didn't realize that till I was an adult.

293
00:28:35,082 --> 00:28:36,434
Nancy: Right. Billy Bobcat.

294
00:28:36,602 --> 00:28:37,310
Chris: What?

295
00:28:39,930 --> 00:28:40,670
Nancy: What?

296
00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:42,270
Chris: You didn't know that?

297
00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:45,150
Kayla: No one ever told me that.

298
00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:46,418
Chris: Yeah, she.

299
00:28:46,474 --> 00:28:49,626
Kayla: So she secretly was the mascot of your school?

300
00:28:49,778 --> 00:28:55,294
Chris: Yeah, like, the. You didn't know why? There was just like a. Like a. Almost like a Disneyland character, like a suit.

301
00:28:55,382 --> 00:28:57,870
Kayla: Why didn't you know? Why would they keep it from you?

302
00:28:57,950 --> 00:29:05,050
Chris: Nobody told me because I was just like, oh, it's Billy Bobcat. And then, like, much later, my mom was like, oh, yeah, that was me in the suit the whole time.

303
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:08,190
Kayla: Was that, like, figuring out Santa a little bit.

304
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:28,936
Chris: A little bit. It was more traumatic way after, like, Santa was like, whatever. I was, like, five, but this was like. I don't know, I was like a teenager and was like, oh, yeah, God, I love you. Guess what? I'm gonna shatter your fucking reality here. She's the best. Yeah, it was pretty trippy. It was cool. What did you do at Ge?

305
00:29:29,128 --> 00:29:31,940
Nancy: I was a quality engineer for aircraft engines.

306
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,160
Chris: Jet engines?

307
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,168
Nancy: Yeah. Military jet engines.

308
00:29:35,304 --> 00:29:48,368
Chris: Wow. Okay. That's. That's intense. Basically, so is ge. Quality control on military jet engines. Stay at home mom for a bit. And then that was when you went to work at Disney, was after that phase?

309
00:29:48,464 --> 00:29:49,238
Nancy: That's correct.

310
00:29:49,344 --> 00:30:10,390
Chris: Okay. That's quite the career experience. So, getting into our topic, which you mentioned earlier, today's episode of cult, or just weird, is about Mary Kay cosmetics for our listeners that may not know how would you describe this organization briefly in your own words? Like, what. What is Mary Kay?

311
00:30:11,650 --> 00:30:32,946
Nancy: Well, Mary Kay cosmetics, I believe, was a pioneer in the skincare industry, which, of course, is huge, even today. And. But it was back when I did Mary Kay. Again, I don't know how it's run today. It was a kind of a home base, you know, where you go into people's homes and do what we would call a beauty show.

312
00:30:33,098 --> 00:30:33,818
Chris: Okay.

313
00:30:33,954 --> 00:30:47,782
Nancy: You'd have everybody do a facial, you know, at the table. All the guests do a facial. They put. Do all the skincare regimen, and then put on makeup and. And. And obviously with the intent of hopefully selling them the product.

314
00:30:47,926 --> 00:30:48,590
Chris: Okay.

315
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:58,530
Nancy: And the reason I did that is I'm not a huge makeup person, but I had used the product, and I really liked what it had done for my skin.

316
00:30:59,350 --> 00:31:01,966
Chris: So you like the product itself as a consumer?

317
00:31:02,118 --> 00:31:08,450
Nancy: I love the product as a consumer, and I don't think you can be a good salesperson unless you really believe in the product.

318
00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:22,294
Chris: Yeah. So just kind of interjecting here already, or maybe this is the second time if we keep that stuff about Billy Bobcat, but this is one of the first things that I kind of went, huh. Interesting. But still, if the consumers like the product.

319
00:31:22,382 --> 00:31:23,014
Kayla: Right.

320
00:31:23,182 --> 00:31:25,990
Chris: That's more of an air of legitimacy to the business. Right.

321
00:31:26,030 --> 00:31:47,008
Kayla: Well, it's also like, yeah, I don't know. I don't even know what I want to say about that. Just that, like, given where we. How we kind of came away from our previous episode, the previous MLM episode being like, oh, God, this is all really bad. Like, I still have. There's still this part of me that's like. But some of these products are really good products.

322
00:31:47,104 --> 00:31:47,336
Chris: Right.

323
00:31:47,368 --> 00:31:49,096
Kayla: Like Mary Kay's good products.

324
00:31:49,208 --> 00:32:09,312
Chris: Yeah. And, yeah. That's honestly what makes it, I think, such a apropos topic for our show is that it does feel sometimes like it's gray. Now, there's other companies. There's a lot of mlms where it doesn't feel gray. But, sure, this is one of the things where I was starting to feel a little bit like, okay, I mean, she was in it for the product, so that's like.

325
00:32:09,336 --> 00:32:10,304
Kayla: That's not exploitive.

326
00:32:10,392 --> 00:32:16,008
Chris: That's not exploitive. But. But again, remember, it's not the product that's exploitive. It's the business model.

327
00:32:16,064 --> 00:32:16,880
Kayla: Right, right.

328
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:28,808
Chris: So it's this weird gray area. Right, right. And also, there's. There's other people who disagree with her about the quality of the product. But that's not to say that she's wrong. There's a lot of people that agree with her that the products are amazing.

329
00:32:28,864 --> 00:32:31,350
Kayla: So, I mean, I agree.

330
00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:57,314
Nancy: So tie it back into being a stay at home mom. This was something that I could do while I raised my children and, you know, while I was at home, and it would help me raise a little bit of money, you know, make some money. And also not as much that as, you know, getting out of the house, meeting other women, and just doing something for me versus just being a mom.

331
00:32:57,402 --> 00:33:26,156
Chris: Sure. Yeah, yeah. From some of my research myself into Mary Kay that I've done for this episode, that's. I believe that's a common sentiment. I think that's something that a lot of that Mary Kay even like themselves, the company. Would you agree that the company sort of engages with that sort of narrative, too, that they. That they want women to be empowered and kind of like, go do something for themselves? And do you think they sort of, like, targets? Maybe not the right word, but stay at home moms is kinda kind of like part of their bread and butter.

332
00:33:26,348 --> 00:33:29,180
Nancy: I would say that they have all different types of women. Right?

333
00:33:29,220 --> 00:33:30,172
Chris: Oh, interesting. Okay.

334
00:33:30,236 --> 00:34:03,032
Nancy: But I think that women that are looking to make extra money on their own terms, making their own hours, that flexibility was probably what sold a lot of people on it, because back when I did it, there were a lot more, I believe, a lot more stay at home moms at the time. That is not as common today. And being able to be invited into somebody else's home to do a beauty show was much more common, akin to, like, a tupperware or something like that. Mary Kay was kind of parallel to that same marketing model.

335
00:34:03,136 --> 00:34:23,310
Chris: Gotcha. My next question is, actually, I think you basically already answered it, but if you want to flesh out at all, if you have anything, is basically. I was going to ask, why and when did you start doing Mary Kay? It sounds like the why. A lot of it is what we just talked about. You wanted to make some extra money on your own terms, get out of the house, meet other women, do something for yourself.

336
00:34:23,770 --> 00:34:24,954
Nancy: And I like the product.

337
00:34:25,081 --> 00:34:25,882
Chris: And you like the product?

338
00:34:25,946 --> 00:34:34,641
Nancy: I like the product. I like what it represented. I just. I had a friend who was in it, my friend Meg, who, as they call, recruited me into it.

339
00:34:34,706 --> 00:34:35,850
Chris: That was my next question.

340
00:34:35,929 --> 00:34:52,916
Nancy: It's a multi level marketing company. So you recruit people to join you, if you will, into the. Into the company. And, you know, Meg, and for our listeners who don't, she's the most enthusiastic passionate person.

341
00:34:52,947 --> 00:34:54,428
Chris: She's a high energy individual.

342
00:34:54,524 --> 00:34:57,604
Nancy: High energy and a good salesperson, for sure.

343
00:34:57,652 --> 00:34:57,900
Chris: Yeah.

344
00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:01,860
Nancy: So I'm sure there was a little bit of a sales pitch, if you will.

345
00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:02,420
Chris: Right.

346
00:35:02,540 --> 00:35:14,588
Nancy: We were friends and, you know, she. She knew what my capabilities maybe were and that I might be successful. And she loved what she did, thought I would love it, too. And so she recruited me into Mary Kay.

347
00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:16,284
Chris: When was that? Like, what year?

348
00:35:16,372 --> 00:35:20,964
Nancy: That was around, I would say around 1981.

349
00:35:21,092 --> 00:35:27,596
Chris: Tell me what that recruitment experience was like. Was it at, like, a party or did she mention it to you or.

350
00:35:27,748 --> 00:36:13,206
Nancy: No, it wasn't at a party. She probably just mentioned it to me. I think we used to do, like, jazzercise together or something. You know, I think she mentioned it. One of the things about Mary Kay in retrospect is, you know, you're always sort of had to be on looking for the next. Probably the next person to recruit or to sell to or whatever, because that's how you grew your business. Right. And so she was very good at recognizing people that might be potential for the product. You know, that is what the business is selling to other women and obviously hoping to grow your business. You can't grow your business without bringing other people into it because it's a multi level marketing company.

351
00:36:13,318 --> 00:36:21,094
Chris: Interesting. When you say that's key to multi level marketing, like, what does that mean? Like, why is that key? Why is it not just selling stuff?

352
00:36:21,262 --> 00:36:50,400
Nancy: Well, that's not how it was built, right? I guess the thing is, you are selling stuff, but you're also selling it to others who, as they bought product from Mary Kay to sell you, as the recruiter, would get credit. So much money, or whatever it was per recruit. So if they sold so much, you would get a percentage of what they sold, and the person who recruited me would get a percent. You know, everyone gets a percentage.

353
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:58,676
Chris: So whenever you bought wholesale from Mary Kate to sell yourself, Meg, who recruited you, would get a small cut of that.

354
00:36:58,748 --> 00:37:02,160
Nancy: Right. And I don't remember at this point what it was.

355
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:03,388
Chris: Okay.

356
00:37:03,444 --> 00:37:03,884
Nancy: That's how.

357
00:37:03,932 --> 00:37:06,396
Chris: And then that would continue down. So if you recruited someone.

358
00:37:06,468 --> 00:37:16,324
Nancy: Right. So then if I recruited, then I would do that, do the same thing when they sold, then I would get a percentage of what they did. Okay, so that's what the multi level is.

359
00:37:16,412 --> 00:37:16,732
Chris: Right.

360
00:37:16,796 --> 00:37:28,536
Nancy: So obviously, the more people that Meg could recruit in, or I could recruit in would grow our business. So it wasn't just me going out now selling the product, it was others going out selling the product as well.

361
00:37:28,648 --> 00:37:47,510
Chris: Right. So what was the onboarding process like, so after you said to Meg, you know what? This sounds like a good idea. I'm in. I'm on the board. I'm on the board. We'll keep that one. So I sound like an idiot. I'm on board with this. Let's do it. What was it like after that? Like, did they send you stuff in the mail? Did they call it, like, what was.

362
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:55,710
Nancy: Right. So it was sort of a welcome kit, if you want to call it that. And we paid so much money to get all our initial product.

363
00:37:56,010 --> 00:37:58,030
Chris: How much was that, roughly, do you remember?

364
00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:02,954
Nancy: I would want to say about $500.

365
00:38:03,002 --> 00:38:05,594
Chris: But I'm so in the hundreds. Not in the thousands of.

366
00:38:05,722 --> 00:38:41,484
Nancy: Right. No, maybe about $500. And what that gave us was a. The. What I would call, like, say, the demonstration kit, what you would use when you would go out to beauty shows, what you take with you, all the supplies, everything that you would need so that the other ladies at the table could do their facial. So your supplies, sort of a presentation that you would go through, and then, you know, all your presentation materials, all your supplies, and then all your initial product. So, I don't know. It was quite a bit of initial product of all the different types of skincare and whatnot. So that kind of gave your start in terms of what you would sell initially.

367
00:38:41,592 --> 00:38:47,876
Chris: Okay. It was just, like, all across the board. It was like, moisturizer and, you know, base and just everything.

368
00:38:47,948 --> 00:39:14,582
Nancy: Right? Yeah. So Mary Kay's philosophy was it wasn't just their goal wasn't just to sell, say, one product. It was. It was a skincare system, which you still hear about today. Other companies, many companies who do the same thing. You know, it's several steps of skin care. So where you're cleaning and you're toning and you moisturizing, and then you put the makeup on, that kind of thing. They're probably one of the pioneers in that regard, I think, where they did a whole skincare system.

369
00:39:14,686 --> 00:39:22,750
Chris: Right? Yeah. I've definitely heard that buzzword on, like, commercials for other beauty companies before the blah, blah. Skincare system.

370
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:23,970
Nancy: Yeah, absolutely.

371
00:39:25,390 --> 00:39:44,146
Chris: So this is one of the things that. Yeah, I totally found interesting was this, like, skincare system idea, which I guess I probably should have mentioned earlier when were talking, because I just said, oh, they sell makeup. But. But really, they had, like, they were also a pioneer in this whole, like, skincare system. Like, you know, what? Do one and step one, step two, step three, and then reach a product that you can get from us. I thought that was interesting.

372
00:39:44,178 --> 00:40:03,904
Kayla: I had no idea that they were, like, even started, really, with that skincare situation. And, like, skincare's always kind of been a thing, but, like, definitely now in terms of, like, beauty trends, especially, like, western cultures really gotten into the, like, gotten back into the, like, multi step, like, skincare regimen.

373
00:40:03,952 --> 00:40:04,580
Chris: Yeah.

374
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:10,904
Kayla: I just think that's really interesting that I didn't really even know that it was stated, at least in part, with Mary Kay.

375
00:40:10,992 --> 00:40:26,280
Chris: Right. Yeah. Back in the early eighties, no less. You said yes to Meg. Let's do it. She signed you up, and then they sent you something. You paid your money, and then they. In the mail, they sent you product to sell, to demonstrate, and they also sent you presentations and training materials.

376
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:34,590
Nancy: Right. And then Meg would also train. Part of the whole Mary Kay piece of it is regular meetings.

377
00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:35,110
Chris: Okay.

378
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:45,262
Nancy: So Meg was what we call the director. Okay. And she would hold meetings for all of the people that were in her, quote unquote, organization.

379
00:40:45,406 --> 00:40:45,878
Chris: Okay.

380
00:40:45,934 --> 00:40:54,320
Nancy: Right. And that's where all of the motivation and inspiration training would come into play.

381
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,016
Chris: Mm.

382
00:40:55,128 --> 00:41:03,864
Nancy: So that's when you think about Mary Kay. You know, dad, kids, about the song that we would sing. You actually would sing a song?

383
00:41:03,992 --> 00:41:20,520
Chris: Mmm. Oh, really? So. So Meg would have actually. Okay. So I'm just trying to picture this in my head. So she'd have this essentially, like a. Like a team meeting in all hands. Okay. With her people that are downstream. Is that what I've heard this buzzword, downline. Was that used in Mary Kay downline?

384
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,560
Nancy: I've not. I don't. I don't remember that term.

385
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:29,336
Chris: They didn't use that word. Interesting. Okay. So the people she recruited would be part of this meeting, and then it would basically just be sort of like,

386
00:41:29,448 --> 00:41:30,536
Nancy: She, like, rented a hall.

387
00:41:30,568 --> 00:41:34,456
Chris: She'd have a hall and half's half pep rally.

388
00:41:34,608 --> 00:41:36,616
Nancy: I would say it was like a pep rally. Yep.

389
00:41:36,688 --> 00:41:37,344
Chris: Okay.

390
00:41:37,472 --> 00:41:41,800
Nancy: And it would be recognizing your accomplishments for the week before.

391
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:42,740
Chris: Okay.

392
00:41:43,200 --> 00:42:25,852
Nancy: So, you know, she'd ask someone to. She used to call it crowing and crowing. Being. Bragging, sort of on yourself. So one of the things there is to recognize your accomplishments, but also build confidence, because a lot. I always had a lot of confidence, but not every woman that joined Mary Kay had a lot of confidence. And I think that's one of the things that Mary Kay sort of sold, was building up your self esteem and being able to speak in front of people and build up their confidence. So, crow about what you did this week. Well, that could be. You had beauty show, and you sold a $100 whatever it was. And then, you know, everyone would, you know, recognize and cheer you on, that kind of thing. So people would quote unquote, crow about their week.

393
00:42:25,996 --> 00:42:36,800
Nancy: There might have been a sales topic of the week or sales tips, you know, that she might share things. So there was always like either maybe product knowledge or sales knowledge.

394
00:42:37,580 --> 00:42:39,332
Chris: She held this meeting every week. Every week.

395
00:42:39,356 --> 00:42:40,342
Nancy: We'd have it every week.

396
00:42:40,436 --> 00:42:44,690
Chris: How mandatory was it? Was it like you kind of had to go, or was it more like you should?

397
00:42:44,730 --> 00:43:23,362
Nancy: Nothing was really mandatory because, remember, it's your own business, right? They tout that it's your own business. You can make as much of it or as little as you want to make of it. That was one of their things because, of course, you know, one of the, I've learned a lot from Erica in terms of sales, and one of the things we learned was combating objections. So, you know, they anticipate what objections would be. So, so let's say I was trying to recruit somebody. They may say, well, you know, I can't put a lot of time into it. I have young kids, or I'm not very good at sales, whatever it is. And so part of the comeback, if you will, would be, well, you can make as much of it, as little as you want. You can do it full time.

398
00:43:23,426 --> 00:43:49,790
Nancy: You can do it an hour a month. You can do it, you know, whatever it is. There are no real parameters around. You have to do it as a director, however, there is, you do have to have, you have to meet certain goals. But. So women would come to the meetings. Most people did come, though, because, again, you know, they were with like minded women. Probably got them out of the house, right?

399
00:43:49,870 --> 00:43:50,230
Chris: Sure.

400
00:43:50,310 --> 00:43:58,400
Nancy: They got dressed. We would get dressed up. You put on your face, your makeup. Right. You'd go out. And it was a very motivational and uplifting type environment.

401
00:43:59,580 --> 00:44:13,640
Chris: So again, we kind of come back to this idea of like, you're getting more than just your monetary investment out of it, you're getting this other value, right. This confidence in public speaking and business and whatever value.

402
00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:16,640
Kayla: If I have to sing a song, I'm out.

403
00:44:17,140 --> 00:44:19,640
Chris: You don't. Stay tuned.

404
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:28,556
Nancy: And so there was a Mary Kay song. It wasn't just at our meetings that, but it was something that was like.

405
00:44:28,708 --> 00:44:30,964
Chris: Mary Kay, like the company wrote it kind of thing.

406
00:44:31,012 --> 00:44:31,196
Tracy Coenen: Right.

407
00:44:31,228 --> 00:44:33,844
Nancy: It's. Would you like me to, if you.

408
00:44:33,852 --> 00:44:36,148
Chris: Would like to sing it, I would love for you to sing it, if.

409
00:44:36,164 --> 00:45:02,180
Nancy: I can remember, basically says, I've got that Mary Kay enthusiasm down in my heart right down in my heart I've got that Mary Kay enthusiasm down in my heart Tuesday. So you would sing that pretty much at every meeting, or as you called it was like a pep rally. Right. It gets people motivated and excited, and the women would sing it. They weren't. They weren't embarrassed because it was just other women there and.

410
00:45:02,220 --> 00:45:03,620
Chris: Sure. And everybody's singing the same song.

411
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:12,980
Nancy: Everyone. Right. And, you know, obviously, there's something to that, or else they wouldn't have been, you know, incorporated that into their process.

412
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:16,380
Chris: Right. Would you sing that song at the beginning of these rallies?

413
00:45:16,460 --> 00:45:18,492
Nancy: The beginning, I think I'm calling them rallies.

414
00:45:18,516 --> 00:45:57,830
Chris: Sorry, meeting. Yeah, I keep doing those pep rallies. So one of the things that I also found in my research about Mary Kay in particular is how, like, I think she talks about this a little bit more, too, but positive oriented. Like, everything was like, you know, positive mentality, positive thinking. Power of positive thinking. Don't be negative. Like, you know, let's. Let's. Let's keep each other, you know, feeling good and positive. So there. And sometimes that I have, in my research, found that sometimes that is good, and people are like, yay. And sometimes I have read people that say that it was stifling and there wasn't any room for criticism.

415
00:45:58,530 --> 00:46:09,226
Kayla: May I say, do you remember. Do you remember that documentary we watched about the Fyre festival and Billy McFarlane? I know that our listeners have probably never heard of this before.

416
00:46:09,378 --> 00:46:09,810
Chris: Right.

417
00:46:09,890 --> 00:46:11,610
Kayla: We've definitely never talked about it on the podcast.

418
00:46:11,650 --> 00:46:13,834
Chris: Yeah. It's been at least an episode or.

419
00:46:13,842 --> 00:46:17,978
Kayla: Two, but there was definitely that whole, like, we're solution oriented.

420
00:46:18,034 --> 00:46:18,474
Chris: Exactly.

421
00:46:18,522 --> 00:46:25,826
Kayla: Don't. If you say anything that's like, pointing out a problem, you just kind of get met with either. Like, we are a solutions oriented group.

422
00:46:25,898 --> 00:46:39,074
Chris: And if you don't want to be solutions oriented, you can get the hell out. Right. Yeah. So I think it's similar to that in the sense that it's like, it's really hard to tell whether that's a good thing that supports a vision.

423
00:46:39,162 --> 00:46:39,770
Kayla: Right.

424
00:46:39,930 --> 00:47:26,894
Chris: And keeps you. Keeps everybody oriented towards that North Star, towards that goal, whether it's a festival or, you know, selling skincare or is it stifling of legitimate criticism and ignoring realities and whatnot. Right. So it's. Which, for Fyre festival, we can definitely say which one it was, but with this, it's, like, harder to tell. Right, right. I actually had some follow up questions for you about, specifically about the combating objections bit were those objections that were sort of. They were common objections, and then Mary Kay company sort of catalogued what they were and then gave you ways to overcome them, is that sort of how that worked?

425
00:47:26,982 --> 00:47:58,248
Nancy: I would say they would be tools of the trade. So I think that any sales organization would probably use the same thing, except they would anticipate. So, for example, if were trying to sell, quote unquote, the idea of you having a beauty show in your home, you know, you might say, oh, I'm way too busy. I don't have a very nice house, you know, whatever I might be. But I might say, well, you know, we can do it anytime that's convenient for you, or, you know, you don't have to have a nice house. You don't have to do anything. I'm going to bring everything to you. You know, those types of things.

426
00:47:58,384 --> 00:48:32,462
Nancy: If I was trying to sell you on a product and you said, I don't have a lot of money, you know, or, I don't have enough money, would say, oh, you know, you could put it on a charge card. You could give me a check. You could give me cash. You know, you try to make. You try to anticipate the types of the objections that most people would give you. I don't have enough money. I don't have enough time, those types of things. And I think in any sales organization, those are okay. Just like if you went to buy a car and you say, I really don't think I'm ready now. Well, but this deal today is just the best. You know, I can only do it today. You know, they anticipate everything.

427
00:48:32,526 --> 00:48:32,878
Chris: You might.

428
00:48:32,934 --> 00:48:50,006
Nancy: There's so many answers that you're gonna use. Right. So Mary Kay was, you know, the same. The same thing, because people are fearful of get making a commitment or getting involved or having people at their home or, I have to cook if I. If you come, you know, those types of things. Women typically probably have the same concerns. Right?

429
00:48:50,038 --> 00:48:50,206
Chris: So.

430
00:48:50,238 --> 00:48:50,454
Nancy: Sure.

431
00:48:50,502 --> 00:49:07,888
Chris: Yeah. To be fair, she's absolutely right about this. I mean, the sales. Combating objections is a sales technique. It's not an MLM thing, you know, as direct sales companies, obviously, it's an element of it, but it's not as far from unique to mlms.

432
00:49:08,024 --> 00:49:15,624
Kayla: Just go to the mall any Saturday afternoon. Those kiosk folks are. They know how to get you to buy a thing.

433
00:49:15,712 --> 00:49:16,144
Chris: Yeah.

434
00:49:16,232 --> 00:49:20,546
Kayla: And they have answer for everything. And honestly, it's an art form.

435
00:49:20,658 --> 00:49:22,146
Chris: It is. Well, that's kind of what she's talking about.

436
00:49:22,178 --> 00:49:22,346
Kayla: Right?

437
00:49:22,378 --> 00:49:47,428
Chris: Is that it's like learning that art is its own thing. I actually had some follow up questions for you about, specifically about the combating objections bit. Were those objections that were sort of. They were common objections, and then Mary Kay company sort of cataloged what they were and then gave you ways to overcome them, is that sort of how that worked?

438
00:49:47,524 --> 00:50:18,448
Nancy: I would say there would be tools of the trade. So I think that any sales organization would probably use the same thing, except they would anticipate. So, for example, if were trying to sell, quote unquote, the idea of you having a beauty show in your home, you know, you might say, oh, I'm way too busy. I don't have a very nice house, you know, whatever I might be. But I might say, well, you know, we could at any time that's convenient for you, or, you know, you don't have to have a nice house. You don't have to do anything. I'm gonna bring everything to you know, those types of things.

439
00:50:18,584 --> 00:50:51,978
Nancy: If I was trying to sell you on a product and you said, I don't have a lot of money, you know, or I don't have enough money, would say, oh, you know, you could put it on a charge card, you could give me a check, you could give me cash, you know, you try to make. You try to anticipate this, the types of the objections that most people would give you. I don't have enough money. I don't have enough time, those types of things. And I think in any sales organization, those are okay. Just like if you went to buy a car and you say, I really don't think I'm ready now. Well, but this deal today is just the best. You know, I can only do it today. You know, they anticipate everything.

440
00:50:52,034 --> 00:50:52,418
Chris: You might.

441
00:50:52,474 --> 00:50:54,474
Nancy: There's so many answers that you're going to use.

442
00:50:54,522 --> 00:50:54,706
Tracy Coenen: Right.

443
00:50:54,738 --> 00:51:18,624
Nancy: So America was, you know, the same thing, because people are fearful of getting. Making a commitment or getting involved, having people at their home or I have to cook if I, if you come, you know, those types of things, women typically probably have the same concerns. Right? So, yeah, so that was one of the sales techniques that, you know, we learned along the way, which, frankly, has been very helpful in many things.

444
00:51:18,672 --> 00:51:18,856
Kayla: Right.

445
00:51:18,888 --> 00:51:31,470
Nancy: Because you can anticipate somebody's response, even in an interview, for example, or if you're interviewing somebody, you can anticipate what they might say. And if you want to kind of combat that was some feedback or something, you can do that. So it's a skill, I think that.

446
00:51:31,810 --> 00:51:54,000
Chris: I took away from that sales is definitely a skill. What I'm curious about my second follow up question for that is, and I think you sort of hit on this a little bit, is were you combating objections to people buying Mary Kay cosmetic products, or were you combating objections to recruiting other consultants into your network?

447
00:51:54,420 --> 00:51:55,268
Nancy: All of the above.

448
00:51:55,324 --> 00:51:55,516
Chris: Right.

449
00:51:55,548 --> 00:52:27,262
Nancy: Buying the product, having a beauty show at their home would be another thing because, you know, as I indicated earlier, it's a home based business where you go into their home and do a beauty show, we called it. Right. That's where you made your money, obviously, by bringing other women in and selling to them and then wanting them to have a show so they can bring in their friends. Because obviously you have a show, then you're friend has a show, then every, you know, it keeps growing in that regard. Right. So that was key, getting shows and then also bringing people into the business.

450
00:52:27,446 --> 00:52:58,796
Nancy: I liked the business well enough that I wanted to bring other people in because I felt like it was a great product and I liked the camaraderie of being with the other women and the enthusiasm that, you know, it generated. I liked helping other people when I. It was very satisfying. For example, if you went to a. If you did a quote unquote beauty show and watched somebody pretty much transform in front of you, they always looked so pretty at the end of the night, and they always felt so good about themselves. It was rewarding.

451
00:52:58,868 --> 00:52:59,116
Chris: Yeah.

452
00:52:59,148 --> 00:52:59,508
Nancy: You know.

453
00:52:59,564 --> 00:53:01,268
Chris: Yeah. Having somebody else feel good about themselves.

454
00:53:01,364 --> 00:53:16,818
Nancy: It was just rewarding because people were like, oh, I don't do makeup and I don't do it. And, you know, I don't think I whatever. And then, you know, just do it. You know, they would play along and participate, and then at the end of the night, you notice I them sort of radiate and glow a little bit. It was a good feeling.

455
00:53:16,914 --> 00:53:27,510
Chris: That is nice. Was there more of an incentive on. Not incentive. Emphasis on recruiting or more of an emphasis on selling the makeup?

456
00:53:28,250 --> 00:53:29,750
Nancy: I would say both.

457
00:53:30,090 --> 00:53:30,950
Chris: Okay.

458
00:53:31,330 --> 00:53:44,450
Nancy: It's hard for me to gauge because I'm such an overachiever, that once I got into it and enjoyed it, then I felt like it was a natural thing to sort of recruit people. Like join me kind of thing.

459
00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:45,202
Chris: Sure.

460
00:53:45,386 --> 00:54:20,006
Nancy: But for somebody who really didn't seem to have that skill or so. For example, your aunt Patty was one of my recruits, and, you know, she's very shy, and she, I don't think she would ever try to recruit anybody, but she enjoyed, you know, the makeup and using it herself and having shows for people that, you know, she enjoyed that part of it, but I don't think she would ever have the motivation to recruit. So it was a little bit of both. But for me, it was sort of a lot on recruiting because I got so enthused about it. Right.

461
00:54:20,158 --> 00:54:24,490
Chris: How long did you do this for? Like, when was your last Mary Kay year?

462
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:49,300
Nancy: So when we built. When we moved to Florida in 1987, before I moved, I. I gave the position up. And the reason for that was I did not want to have to rebuild in a new area. Rebuild, rebuild my organization, which would have been. Because it's a constant thing. Right. So I had an organization which I can talk about because I became a director.

463
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:50,624
Chris: So a network of people.

464
00:54:50,672 --> 00:55:04,292
Nancy: Essentially, a network of people on my team. Right. And so people are always coming and going. Obviously, people join and quit, and some stay longer than others, you know? So it's one of those types of businesses that you always have to be working at.

465
00:55:04,396 --> 00:55:05,040
Chris: Right.

466
00:55:05,460 --> 00:55:31,466
Nancy: Like any job, you have to work at it. Right. It becomes more of a job when you're recruiting people. Right. And moving to a new area. Maybe it would have been ripe for meeting people, but I didn't want that to be how I met people. I wanted to be able to learn how to live in a new area organically. I didn't want to feel pressure of talking to people, and I didn't want anybody to think that's the only reason I wanted to be their friend or something, or they wanted to.

467
00:55:31,618 --> 00:55:32,258
Chris: I see.

468
00:55:32,354 --> 00:56:06,642
Nancy: And I wanted to focus on my family and getting. I had never moved out of my home before, and I wanted to have the ability to just grow my life here in Florida without having any. I'm gonna put quote unquote, pressure of having to do any sales, having to look for women to recruit or whatever. I just. I think I was done with it from that phase of it. And my children were getting to the point where they were getting into, you know, school, and I wanted to spend more time volunteering and helping grow, you know, the family. So I gave. I gave it up in about 1987, so I probably spent five or six years.

469
00:56:06,666 --> 00:56:17,952
Chris: I suppose that's a good amount of time. How many people were you able to recruit during that time? How big was your own organization? And did you do the same things that Meg did with the meetings and everything?

470
00:56:18,106 --> 00:56:21,412
Nancy: Yep. So I eventually became a director.

471
00:56:21,596 --> 00:56:22,172
Chris: Okay.

472
00:56:22,236 --> 00:56:30,324
Nancy: And actually, quite a short amount of time. I got very lucky and very engaged. I was. I think it's 24 people you had to recruit.

473
00:56:30,412 --> 00:56:31,084
Chris: Wow.

474
00:56:31,252 --> 00:56:49,678
Nancy: And then when you did that, you became what they call a director and qualification. And they sent you to Dallas, where Mary Kay headquarters were, and you spent, I think it was either a week or two, getting all sorts of sales training with other women from around the country.

475
00:56:49,814 --> 00:56:50,742
Chris: Interesting.

476
00:56:50,926 --> 00:56:53,622
Nancy: Other directors, people that were becoming directors.

477
00:56:53,646 --> 00:56:54,774
Chris: Becoming new directors. Okay. Right.

478
00:56:54,822 --> 00:57:14,120
Nancy: Directors and qualification. They call it DIQ week. I think it was a week. I guess it was a week. And you get all sorts of sales training, obviously, motivation stuff, you know, everything that you would need then to go back out sort of into the country to work with your own teams. Tips and hints and, you know, things that you could do to make your meetings better.

479
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:21,032
Chris: Is there anything you remember in particular that they. That they taught you during DIq week? Takeaways or tidbits that stick with you?

480
00:57:21,176 --> 00:57:48,528
Nancy: How to motivate people was probably. Probably a big one. Right. And, you know, just in general, how to run the business. New product knowledge. Right. New products coming out and what, you know, how would you sell on that kind of thing? How to deal with maybe. Maybe hints and tips in terms of, let's say it was holiday time and how you could maximize sales during the holiday by making it festive or putting baskets together, perhaps, so that you can sell it to the husbands of women. That kind of thing.

481
00:57:48,584 --> 00:57:49,608
Chris: Right. As gifts.

482
00:57:49,704 --> 00:57:53,080
Nancy: As gifts and that kind of thing. So hints and tips and stuff like that.

483
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:59,328
Chris: Okay. When you say to run the business, is that like financial accounting type stuff or was that more like probably a.

484
00:57:59,344 --> 00:58:15,824
Nancy: Little bit of everything, I guess. Right. Because they considered it your own business. Right, right. So I think it was all sorts of stuff to help you grow your business when you went back home. The key thing about that director on qualification week was we met Mary Kay personally.

485
00:58:15,912 --> 00:58:17,528
Chris: Oh, wow. Tell me more about that.

486
00:58:17,584 --> 00:58:27,320
Nancy: And the highlight of that week, traditionally, is going to Mary Kay's house of her own house, her own personal house, and sitting on the couch of Mary Kay and her talking to you about.

487
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:28,540
Chris: Was it a pink couch?

488
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,840
Nancy: It was. Ron Townsend was very pink. A lot of her things were very.

489
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,736
Chris: Pink because I know that was like, that was her.

490
00:58:33,768 --> 00:58:35,528
Nancy: That was her shtick, if you will. Right.

491
00:58:35,584 --> 00:58:36,376
Chris: And the company. Right.

492
00:58:36,408 --> 00:58:44,440
Nancy: And the companies, you know, if you succeeded and recruited so many people and you did so many sales and all of that, then you got to drive a pink car.

493
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:50,860
Chris: Right. Didn't I think I read that was a reserved color for whichever car company that I forget. The car company.

494
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,900
Nancy: They weren't allowed to make any Cadillac, Buick and Cadillac.

495
00:58:53,940 --> 00:58:57,324
Chris: Cadillac. Right. They weren't allowed to make any other cars that had that exact shade of pink.

496
00:58:57,412 --> 00:59:10,724
Nancy: And it was very pink. Very recognizable. Right. So it was quite the. I mean, actually, it was quite clever marketing, I think, in terms of success. And my friend Meg did drive a. Oh, she did. Pink Buick regal.

497
00:59:10,772 --> 00:59:12,640
Chris: How long did she get to drive it for?

498
00:59:13,180 --> 00:59:28,978
Nancy: I forget how long, honestly. But it's when you become a director, you have to sell so much and you have to maintain so much monthly or quarterly or whatever, in order to kind of maintain that status. So it's not like they gave it to you forever. You had to continue to earn it.

499
00:59:29,074 --> 00:59:30,370
Chris: Right. Kind of like a company car.

500
00:59:30,410 --> 00:59:31,990
Nancy: Almost like a company car.

501
00:59:33,930 --> 00:59:35,266
Kayla: They can take your car away.

502
00:59:35,378 --> 00:59:41,226
Chris: Well, they can take their car back. I mean, it's like a luxury. It's a luxury thing, like.

503
00:59:41,298 --> 00:59:51,092
Kayla: But it seems. It seems like not to criticize the car. It was a wonderful cardinal. It seems like maybe more stress than it's worth potentially.

504
00:59:51,236 --> 01:00:24,670
Chris: The car thing has its supporters and detractors, because one hand, it's like, oh, wow, what a great incentive. But on the other hand, it's like, as you just heard her mention, it can go away if you don't meet the quotas. And we talked about those tiers and quotas and needing to meet them for XYZ incentives is a classic example of that, which can motivate you to want to keep going at it and keep putting. We were talking about that sunk cost. That's part of why.

505
01:00:25,850 --> 01:00:37,002
Nancy: But we met Mary Kay, and we sat on her couch, and she did whatever she had to just sell it to us and excite us. You get to meet Mary Kay, the founder of this company. It was pretty cool.

506
01:00:37,146 --> 01:00:39,342
Chris: Did she have a southern accent? Because she was in Dallas?

507
01:00:39,446 --> 01:00:40,918
Nancy: She didn't have a southern accent because.

508
01:00:40,934 --> 01:00:41,774
Chris: That'S what I picture in my head.

509
01:00:41,822 --> 01:00:56,662
Nancy: Blonde, like, blonde hair, sort of. Kind of like a dolly Parton look, kind of like the blond hair. And, you know, and then she was known. She had a big, round bathtub, and the directors and qualification would. The thing to do when you went to Mary Quays house was to sit.

510
01:00:56,686 --> 01:01:00,926
Chris: In the bathtub and have a picture taken with the. With the bath not full.

511
01:01:00,998 --> 01:01:02,590
Nancy: No, nothing. No water.

512
01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:06,324
Chris: Just. It wasn't like a literal baptism.

513
01:01:06,492 --> 01:01:07,200
Nancy: No.

514
01:01:07,580 --> 01:01:08,204
Chris: Okay.

515
01:01:08,292 --> 01:01:10,036
Nancy: I don't know why. Who started that?

516
01:01:10,148 --> 01:01:14,268
Chris: Yeah, I mean, was it a fancy bathtub? Is that. Yeah, it was like a lion feet and everything.

517
01:01:14,324 --> 01:01:18,160
Nancy: Fancy bathtub or whatever, you know, I don't remember too much about that, but.

518
01:01:18,500 --> 01:01:20,412
Chris: I mean, can you show me that picture later.

519
01:01:20,556 --> 01:01:23,240
Nancy: I probably have it somewhere. I have to find it.

520
01:01:23,980 --> 01:01:56,142
Chris: Okay, so I have photos of this adventure as well. Actually, my. You know, my mom does. Miss Carlson does. But I took photos of the photos on my phone. As an aside, Miss Carlson had, like, a plethora of stuff, so photos and I think, like, some certificates and I think a sash. And I took pictures of all of it. So we will share it with you, our listeners, our devoted fans, but I will also be sharing it with you right now. So here is Mary Kay herself on the couch and with my. My mother.

521
01:01:56,246 --> 01:01:58,364
Kayla: Okay, cool picture.

522
01:01:58,452 --> 01:01:58,996
Chris: Mm.

523
01:01:59,068 --> 01:02:00,364
Kayla: Disappointed the couch isn't pink.

524
01:02:00,452 --> 01:02:02,748
Chris: I know. I was a little disappointed, too. It's like, a yellow color.

525
01:02:02,804 --> 01:02:10,580
Kayla: Can I please describe you may Mary Kay for everyone. First of all, gorgeous hair, perfectly coiffed.

526
01:02:10,660 --> 01:02:15,348
Chris: Definitely. The first thing you notice when you look at a picture of her is like, holy crap, the hair.

527
01:02:15,484 --> 01:02:33,090
Kayla: Incredible blonde hair, great makeup. She's wearing a glorious red dress festooned with all kinds of jewelry and accoutrement. She has a small white dog on her lap that appears to have a pink bow on its tail.

528
01:02:33,470 --> 01:02:37,610
Chris: Yeah, yeah, I didn't ask about that. I don't think.

529
01:02:38,110 --> 01:02:45,678
Kayla: Okay, so that's the picture of just her second picture is your mother, Mary Kay. I'm assuming that's Meg.

530
01:02:45,854 --> 01:02:47,598
Chris: No, I don't know who that third person is.

531
01:02:47,614 --> 01:03:04,476
Kayla: It's some really third director, sales, whatever. And the dog with what appears to be a pink bow on its tail. Your mom has. What is that, like a. What is that called? A pink ribbon? Like. No, it's not a sash. It's like.

532
01:03:04,668 --> 01:03:07,780
Chris: Oh. It's like a. Like a. I'm the prize chicken ribbon.

533
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:09,316
Kayla: Yeah, but it's pink.

534
01:03:09,428 --> 01:03:10,240
Chris: Mm.

535
01:03:10,660 --> 01:03:11,880
Kayla: Incredible dress.

536
01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:40,640
Chris: So the relevant bit here is the third one. Right. And if we go to the next picture, it is her in the aforementioned bathtub. So. Yeah, and so the bathtub, as she mentioned, is, like, a thing. It's a ritual, if you will, that director level people, when they go to this conference, it's like a thing that they do. It's like, oh, cool. You got to take a picture in Mary Kay's bathtub. I don't know how it got started.

537
01:03:41,350 --> 01:03:49,558
Kayla: Somebody was smart. The bathtub itself is not pink. It's white. But the surrounding area, including some curtains.

538
01:03:49,654 --> 01:03:50,374
Chris: Yes.

539
01:03:50,542 --> 01:03:56,690
Kayla: Are that blush pink? There's also what appears to be, like, a fine art statue of a bathing woman.

540
01:03:57,190 --> 01:04:05,734
Chris: Yeah, I hadn't noticed that the first time I looked at that picture. But you're right. Like, marble white porcelain, maybe your mom.

541
01:04:05,822 --> 01:04:11,300
Kayla: And the accompanying lady. Flawless makeup. Gorgeous.

542
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,860
Chris: Here is a picture of Mary Kay on stage at this conference.

543
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:26,224
Kayla: My God. She is my hero. Oh, my God. Okay. There's a lot here to un.

544
01:04:26,272 --> 01:04:31,780
Chris: Yeah. I think that we could maybe just sum it up by saying, like, she's like. Looks like the fairy godmother.

545
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:39,344
Kayla: She looks like the white queen with Dolly parton hair.

546
01:04:39,432 --> 01:04:39,832
Chris: Yeah.

547
01:04:39,896 --> 01:04:44,608
Kayla: And flawless 1920s style makeup.

548
01:04:44,744 --> 01:04:49,008
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. She's got, like, a full white robe. What is that?

549
01:04:49,184 --> 01:04:52,504
Kayla: Don't call it a robe. It appears to be a dress.

550
01:04:52,632 --> 01:04:54,664
Chris: Dress that looks. With a tunic.

551
01:04:54,752 --> 01:04:58,786
Kayla: Looks like a robe. She's amazing, first of all.

552
01:04:58,938 --> 01:05:00,626
Chris: Yeah. And her hair. Crazy.

553
01:05:00,778 --> 01:05:02,850
Kayla: I would follow this woman into battle.

554
01:05:02,930 --> 01:05:05,802
Chris: Yes. So when I said charismatic, this is what I mean.

555
01:05:05,906 --> 01:05:06,450
Kayla: Yeah.

556
01:05:06,570 --> 01:05:08,870
Chris: Right. Just. Just on visual inspection.

557
01:05:10,370 --> 01:05:16,018
Nancy: And then we got a little cookbook that was pink.

558
01:05:16,114 --> 01:05:16,490
Chris: Okay.

559
01:05:16,530 --> 01:05:23,770
Nancy: And Mary Kay's favorite recipes. Oh, and I still have it. And I used the ginger crinkles was my favorite cookbook.

560
01:05:23,810 --> 01:05:28,652
Chris: Oh, yeah. You. You've made those many times. And that was from Mary Kay's Ellen recipe book. That's cool.

561
01:05:28,716 --> 01:05:39,204
Nancy: So, you know, it was a very exciting week. Very motivational. Of course, you meet other women from all over the country. You room with kind of like probably if you went to a beauty pageant and all the women room together and.

562
01:05:39,252 --> 01:05:42,116
Chris: Yeah. You know, share another conference or women's.

563
01:05:42,148 --> 01:06:20,328
Nancy: Conference or something, you know. So it was a great week. Learned a lot. Very exciting. You know, we got dressed up, they took pictures of us in our suits, and it was a big. It was a big deal. And then, you know, when you get through it, then you become what they call a director, and then you're, like, up in the management. Right. Of the organization. No. So anyway, so I did that recruiting. And because of that, you asked about recruiting. So because of that, I actually, I did it so well that I got an award of some sort of recruiting award. And when went to, they had a convention every year, and I actually got to go up on stage in front of all these thousands of people to receive a special award for the recruiting efforts that I had. I have.

564
01:06:20,384 --> 01:06:22,312
Nancy: That's what the sash is that I have in the bag.

565
01:06:22,376 --> 01:06:26,664
Chris: Oh, yeah. I asked you to bring out your props, and so you have a. Describe the sash to me real quick.

566
01:06:26,752 --> 01:06:36,168
Nancy: The sash is a purple sash that says queen of recruiting. Queen's Court of Recruitment, 1983.

567
01:06:36,344 --> 01:06:38,808
Chris: It has a little personal background.

568
01:06:38,944 --> 01:06:44,780
Nancy: And I also got, which Mary Kay was known for a diamond studded bumblebee pen.

569
01:06:44,860 --> 01:06:45,732
Chris: Oh, wow.

570
01:06:45,916 --> 01:06:47,772
Nancy: Which I have since converted into a ring.

571
01:06:47,836 --> 01:06:50,036
Chris: But that makes sense. Cool.

572
01:06:50,108 --> 01:06:59,284
Nancy: But dad was there and I wore gown and I was on stage, on this big stage with the big screens and came down the stairs. It was quite, it was quite an impressive moment.

573
01:06:59,372 --> 01:07:07,100
Chris: Yeah. So I'm curious about the timeline a little bit. So you said it took a few months for you to get your 1st 24.

574
01:07:07,260 --> 01:07:11,024
Nancy: Wasn't a few minutes, probably a year. So I don't remember the time or whatever it was.

575
01:07:11,092 --> 01:07:12,704
Chris: Was short.

576
01:07:12,832 --> 01:07:16,200
Nancy: Was short. And which is why I was recognized with probably.

577
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:20,864
Chris: So you got that recognition. This is during your, during that first DIQ or was it the next?

578
01:07:20,912 --> 01:07:38,230
Nancy: Well, so you went to DIQ, which is a director that was actually become a director, and then a separate award was becoming a queen of recruiting. You didn't have to do all those recruits in that short amount of time. You could take years. And then when you got to your quotient, then you would go to directors of qualification.

579
01:07:39,010 --> 01:08:06,628
Chris: Yes. So this part, when she talks about this, it reminds me a little bit of the stat of the, you know, less than 1% of people that get involved actually succeed. So clearly there are some people that succeed for some reasons and don't succeed for other reasons. But the reason I'm bringing it up now, though, is because I don't know what that stat would have been back when my mom was doing Mary Kay.

580
01:08:06,684 --> 01:08:07,044
Kayla: Right.

581
01:08:07,132 --> 01:08:11,380
Chris: So I know that stat was calculated recently. Okay.

582
01:08:11,460 --> 01:08:38,441
Kayla: I mean, do you feel like that the, that percentage has gone down just as mlms? Like, the more mlms there are, the less returns individual people are getting because there's just so many mlms? Like, is that a thing? Like, right now I have the option to go if I want to go buy makeup direct from my friend. I have Avon. I have nu skin. I have about 15 other options.

583
01:08:38,585 --> 01:08:39,665
Chris: Right. Yeah.

584
01:08:39,777 --> 01:08:41,313
Kayla: As opposed to, like, just Mary Kane, Avon.

585
01:08:41,361 --> 01:09:14,604
Chris: So this is complicated. So individual mlms, again, because of the geometric progression of recruits, going down the pyramid eventually will saturate whether you're the only company in the market or not. And that's when the whole thing sort of breaks apartheid part. And the people at the top make their money and the people at the bottom do not now. So, like, that can happen regardless. But is there, you know, is there more competition now that makes that even harder? Maybe. It's tough to say, and I don't have exact facts and figures on that to say for sure.

586
01:09:14,716 --> 01:09:15,197
Kayla: Got it.

587
01:09:15,252 --> 01:09:19,741
Chris: But what I will say is that things have changed over time.

588
01:09:19,805 --> 01:09:20,408
Kayla: Right.

589
01:09:20,709 --> 01:09:24,661
Chris: And we will talk about that more. So sit tight.

590
01:09:24,765 --> 01:09:25,889
Kayla: I'm sitting.

591
01:09:26,389 --> 01:09:35,020
Chris: So, you know, so is a roughly 24 recruits in the first year. How many more would you say? And totally, I know you probably don't remember the exact number, but that's what you needed.

592
01:09:35,045 --> 01:09:44,053
Nancy: I wanted to be a director, so you had to keep it, I think, at that level, which meant you had to continually try to bring people in.

593
01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:53,703
Chris: I see. So you had to continually have 24 people, which. Yeah, you have to keep bringing people. Yeah. I guess it doesn't matter the exact numbers levels.

594
01:09:53,752 --> 01:10:30,142
Nancy: Right. You had to keep a certain level of sales and a certain level. I'm not sure if it was even people as much as it was the sales. So I don't know whether the number 24 sticks with me for some reason, but the details, I'm not. I couldn't tell you really what the number was for the sales or anything, but like anything else, people join and people quit. You might have an overachiever in your own group that would sell. Fantastic. And you might have somebody that sold, you know, $50 a month or something. Like with anything else, you have the people that are really go gung ho, and then you have the people that just sort of piddle along. Right. And do whatever they can do, and that's okay.

595
01:10:30,326 --> 01:10:41,904
Nancy: But in order for you to make that quota, you know, you have to continually, you know, motivate with the meetings and things and continually bring people and recruit people into the organization.

596
01:10:42,032 --> 01:10:42,432
Chris: Yeah.

597
01:10:42,496 --> 01:10:50,272
Nancy: So I never made it. I never made enough sales to, like, get a car. You know, I never made it to that level.

598
01:10:50,416 --> 01:11:13,938
Chris: I do actually want to harp on that one more time just to be certain. So was it more about, in your memory, it, was it more about the number of people in your organization and potentially, you know, even further down than that. Like, you know, your, your downline, I guess you use that word, but your further networks down. Was it more about the number of people or was it more about the sales of the product?

599
01:11:14,114 --> 01:11:22,186
Nancy: Well, I think at my point, when you're a director, it almost becomes about the numbers and the same. But the sales is an interesting numbers of the sale. No sales.

600
01:11:22,218 --> 01:11:22,602
Chris: Okay.

601
01:11:22,666 --> 01:11:28,882
Nancy: Because obviously, the more people you have, the more sales you get. Right. And the more product that's going out the door.

602
01:11:29,026 --> 01:11:31,990
Chris: Okay, interesting. So it's more about.

603
01:11:32,130 --> 01:11:33,574
Nancy: So it's sort of a combination, if.

604
01:11:33,582 --> 01:11:46,650
Chris: You will, sales of the products by the individual consultants to the consumer, more than it is about recruiting new people and having them buy wholesale from Mary Kay?

605
01:11:47,230 --> 01:11:48,450
Nancy: I would say so.

606
01:11:48,750 --> 01:11:49,398
Chris: Interesting.

607
01:11:49,454 --> 01:11:50,390
Nancy: I would say so.

608
01:11:50,510 --> 01:12:14,744
Chris: I think that's a, you know, we'll talk about that more maybe a little bit, or maybe we will have already talked about that by the time I play this of you on the podcast. But that's actually a key distinction. Whether the product is valuable to the end consumer and the sales is oriented around that or whether it's more oriented around recruiting people to buy wholesale. That's actually a key distinction. So that's why.

609
01:12:14,792 --> 01:12:20,472
Nancy: And I think there are other organizations that are that way. Right. Multi level marketing is not just Mary Kay, obviously.

610
01:12:20,536 --> 01:12:20,944
Chris: It's very.

611
01:12:20,992 --> 01:12:28,066
Nancy: So I would say that the product is very, very important to the end. To the end consumer.

612
01:12:28,098 --> 01:12:30,090
Chris: Yeah. In fact, that may even be the most important.

613
01:12:30,210 --> 01:12:55,336
Nancy: And I feel like, and again, this is just my perception. I feel like that they always were trying to have better product, trying to educate you on the product. And I think that Mary Kay, you know, I could be mistaken, but I really felt that she was sincere in terms of wanting women to beautiful and wanting women to be empowered and all that. And I think obviously, it grows and grows from there.

614
01:12:55,368 --> 01:12:55,536
Chris: Right.

615
01:12:55,568 --> 01:13:06,376
Nancy: And probably other things might filter themselves in, but I think her initial intent and having met her, I felt that she was a very sincere, she was obviously a shrewd businesswoman. Right.

616
01:13:06,448 --> 01:13:06,768
Chris: Yeah.

617
01:13:06,824 --> 01:13:11,512
Nancy: Very clever, very creative with the pink cars. I think there's books.

618
01:13:11,536 --> 01:13:11,712
Kayla: Yes.

619
01:13:11,736 --> 01:13:17,228
Nancy: She wrote Mary Kay, and there's a couple. I probably had read them at some point, but, yeah.

620
01:13:17,404 --> 01:13:19,580
Chris: Still around or not? She's not still around, but the company.

621
01:13:19,660 --> 01:13:43,294
Nancy: The company is still around, but you don't hear as much about it anymore. And I don't know whether, because she's gone or whether the, you know, the cosmetic industry is so competitive, and there's so many people doing the same type of thing. The world is a changed world today, and people don't have home parties as much anymore. That was a, that was our vehicle of selling.

622
01:13:43,382 --> 01:13:43,654
Chris: Right.

623
01:13:43,702 --> 01:14:10,704
Nancy: Right. So people don't have those parties anymore. You don't hear very much about Tupperware parties or anything. Women are busy. They're out in the workforce. A lot of women are working, and so they don't have time to be a Mary Kay consultant. The market is just different, and maybe the need is different now, the niche that it was maybe back then. So the world has changed. So the product is still a good product, but, and I'm sure they're still making millions, but I don't know really how they do that anymore.

624
01:14:10,792 --> 01:14:18,472
Chris: Mm. Yeah. I mean, it's possible that there's still an appetite for that kind of thing that they can kind of tap into. But I don't know either. That's just me speculating.

625
01:14:18,536 --> 01:14:19,352
Nancy: I don't know.

626
01:14:19,496 --> 01:14:46,882
Chris: So would you say I'm digging into that just a little bit. The aspect of having parties with your friends and everything, did you ever feel like you were pressuring anybody or you were being pressured by Meg, or do you ever feel like the relationships with your friends and family were being exploited in any way? Or did you always feel like it was more, you know, you were bringing like, a value to them and informing them and, you know what I mean? Like, which way did that lean?

627
01:14:46,986 --> 01:15:27,128
Nancy: Right? So I would say I believed enough in the product that I wanted to sell it. Right. But you certainly do. In any of these types of businesses, even if you become a financial advisor or whatever, you sort of have to rely on your immediate, sure, friends, your immediate family to sort of do you a favor, kind of to have a show kind of thing or whatever. So I'm not gonna lie about that. I don't know that I felt like I was exploiting them, but I do think it's a natural thing that you have to sort of start somewhere. And so you start with the natural people, right? Your neighbors, your friends or relatives or whatever, and then you have to, of course, branch out from there because that's. They saturate that market pretty quickly.

628
01:15:27,184 --> 01:15:32,224
Chris: Right? Yeah. I've certainly browbeat enough of my friends and family to listen to this podcast. That rings true.

629
01:15:32,272 --> 01:15:46,328
Nancy: So you, so, you know, you have to start somewhere. You have to, you know, you have to get a foothold somewhere. And that's usually where it is with family. But like I said, even if you were selling finances, you'd have to start the same way, you know, how.

630
01:15:46,344 --> 01:15:49,560
Chris: Many of your recruits would you say were friends and family and how many of them were.

631
01:15:49,680 --> 01:16:00,578
Nancy: Oh, in the beginning, yes, a few of them were friends of him. I can't even remember. Honestly, if you were to tell me, could you repeat who they all were? I couldn't do it. Honestly, I couldn't do it.

632
01:16:00,634 --> 01:16:02,730
Chris: Yeah, well, it's 30 years ago. It's a lot of people.

633
01:16:02,810 --> 01:16:22,490
Nancy: It's been a long time ago. And Aunt Patti was one of them and, you know, another relative was one. But after that they were just people that you sort of met maybe at beauty shows, Orlando or. I'm trying to remember where I got everybody, to be honest with you, because.

634
01:16:22,530 --> 01:16:25,474
Chris: 20 some odd people is not a small number of people.

635
01:16:25,522 --> 01:16:40,082
Nancy: It's a lot, actually. I think one was a wife of a guy I worked with at work. I mean, just people you meet sort of along the way. I don't even, you know, I honestly can't remember 100% who they all were and how I got them, to be honest with you.

636
01:16:40,146 --> 01:16:51,404
Chris: Right. But it sounds like some of them were maybe, like one or two degrees of separation with a co worker or a friend. Did you ever, like, cold recruit anybody? Like, you meet someone in the grocery store?

637
01:16:51,452 --> 01:17:13,570
Nancy: Yeah, probably. Yeah. I think you have to. Which is one of the things that was, I would say, I don't want to say it's a negative because you're trying to grow your business, but one of the hard things about being in Mary Kay and really wanting to succeed was you have to sort of be on all the time. Right. So when you would out go to the mall, you would make sure you looked good. Right.

638
01:17:13,870 --> 01:17:14,286
Chris: Interesting.

639
01:17:14,318 --> 01:17:20,974
Nancy: Right. And you would wear, maybe wear Mary Kay pins, because then someone might say, oh, Mary Kay, I love Mary Kay.

640
01:17:21,062 --> 01:17:22,170
Chris: And they initiate.

641
01:17:22,910 --> 01:17:50,496
Nancy: Then you start talking it up and you talk and talking to people. I mean, there was a lot of that went on as well. Right. So I probably did meet people along the way. That way, you know, you get excited about it. You talked about, why don't you come to, you know, why don't you come to one of my meetings? You know, have you ever done a beauty show? Would you like to do that? You know, and the part of the sales technique was, what's better for you, Monday or Thursday? You didn't say, can you do it?

642
01:17:50,528 --> 01:17:51,744
Chris: You would pass the sale.

643
01:17:51,792 --> 01:18:04,266
Nancy: Right. You might say, I'm going to be in your area next week, so which day is best? So you didn't ask them if they're going to do it. You sort of. Sort of, oh, I guess Wednesday, you know what I mean?

644
01:18:04,338 --> 01:18:04,682
Chris: Yeah.

645
01:18:04,746 --> 01:18:08,562
Nancy: So those are sales techniques that you learned along the way.

646
01:18:08,666 --> 01:18:08,978
Chris: Right?

647
01:18:09,034 --> 01:18:15,754
Nancy: You know, yeah. I mean, it was interesting. I have no regrets about doing it. I learned a lot. I think it built a lot of confidence.

648
01:18:15,922 --> 01:18:21,250
Chris: How diverse was your. Was your group? Was it like old, young, both black, white?

649
01:18:21,370 --> 01:19:04,510
Nancy: I think both, I think older and younger. I didn't have. Have any black ladies. I didn't. But. But older and younger, you know, professional people, single, married, you know, kind of all over the place, you know, but you go, if went back to the meeting, I was talking to you about meetings and what else? What else we did, we also. They would recognize. We would recognize you know, maybe somebody for an accomplishment. An achievement, or would say, okay, if you get so many sales next week, you know, you can. You could win this glass. We have crystal glasses, for example, that, you know, so many sales, you could take one home. And so a lot of times, women would be like, oh, that's really cool. I really want that. You know, the.

650
01:19:04,590 --> 01:19:22,820
Nancy: Obviously, the things that we did were to, you know, were motivational to women. Women like pretty glasses. Women like pretty things. I hate to stereotype, but it's true. Right. And so, you know, they would work for something. We all like tchotchkes. You know, a lot of people run marathons just for the metal.

651
01:19:22,940 --> 01:19:38,052
Chris: Of course. Yeah, it's. It symbolizes the achievement. Right. It's not. It's not the metal. It's the. Whenever you look at it, you remember that time that you ran the thing, and when, you know, whenever you look at the sash, it's. You remember the accomplishment that you did. Yeah. It's totally understandable.

652
01:19:38,116 --> 01:19:45,236
Nancy: Yeah. So we would motor, you know, we would sort of inspire people. And I still have crystal glasses, but probably in the cupboard there that I got from Mary Kay. Right.

653
01:19:45,268 --> 01:19:52,588
Chris: That's cool. Yeah, I remember you had the thing on the car, too, the. I still remember on the station wagon, the Mary Kay sticker.

654
01:19:52,644 --> 01:20:13,480
Nancy: Sticker, yeah, yeah. And again, we don't see. You don't see them that often. You don't ever see a pink car anymore. It used to be very common in New England, especially before I moved down. You'd see pink cadillacs and pink cars a lot. Right. So I do think that. That. I'm not even sure that's a part of their marketing thing anymore. I don't know.

655
01:20:13,780 --> 01:20:22,476
Chris: Can we zoom back to Mary Kay, the person, for a minute? Would you characterize her? I think I maybe know the answer to this already, but as a charismatic.

656
01:20:22,548 --> 01:20:25,924
Nancy: Person, yes, I think she was charismatic.

657
01:20:26,052 --> 01:20:32,400
Chris: Did she. I mean, in what way? Was she just, like, well spoken and radiate confidence? Like, what was it about her?

658
01:20:34,500 --> 01:20:40,046
Nancy: I would suppose she was well spoken, but I just think that. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe because she was iconic.

659
01:20:40,158 --> 01:20:40,766
Chris: Right.

660
01:20:40,918 --> 01:20:45,094
Nancy: So when you met her, you were almost in awe of meeting kind of like a celebrity.

661
01:20:45,182 --> 01:20:45,542
Chris: Kind of.

662
01:20:45,566 --> 01:20:46,350
Nancy: Okay, right.

663
01:20:46,470 --> 01:20:49,670
Chris: But did she bring that to the table, too? Like, when. When.

664
01:20:49,750 --> 01:21:16,160
Nancy: Like a genuine, sincere you. I think that's what you got out of there. She was genuine and sincere, that she really cared about you as a person, and you had directors and qualification and that you were joining this, you know, this business and all that, and so I would say she was charismatic. I mean, I don't know that she. She wasn't somebody that was like a meg that was, like, all over and, you know, ringing bells and all that kind of stuff.

665
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,016
Chris: I think she was less energetic and more.

666
01:21:18,088 --> 01:21:24,008
Nancy: But just kind of a. Like a genteel woman from the south would you think would be right, who.

667
01:21:24,024 --> 01:21:30,546
Chris: Just kind of, like, has, like, an appealing way about her. It's just sort of, you know, talks. Talks nice and.

668
01:21:30,618 --> 01:21:31,082
Nancy: Yeah.

669
01:21:31,186 --> 01:21:48,162
Chris: Feels authentic, friendly. Right. Interesting. Okay. And this is sort of, I guess, maybe also already answered, but were your directors above you also charismatic? And it sounds like Meg was, but for a different reason. Her style of charisma was different.

670
01:21:48,346 --> 01:21:51,202
Nancy: Yes, because she. You mean different than Mary Kay herself?

671
01:21:51,346 --> 01:21:51,706
Chris: Yeah.

672
01:21:51,738 --> 01:22:03,986
Nancy: Yeah. Well, I think you bring your own. Wherever you go in the world, you bring your own personality. Right. And how you approach life. And that was just the way she approached life. Everything she does is with enthusiasm and fervor. Right.

673
01:22:04,138 --> 01:22:05,914
Chris: She's like a business cheerleader.

674
01:22:06,002 --> 01:22:08,194
Nancy: She's just. She just. That's who she was.

675
01:22:08,282 --> 01:22:17,750
Chris: Right. Yeah. What about your style? I mean, because you were a director yourself, I mean, what do you think was charismatic about you and about the way you were able to recruit?

676
01:22:19,130 --> 01:22:59,450
Nancy: I don't know. I don't have the same style, certainly, as what she. I do feel it. I do believe I was enthusiastic, and I brought it up a couple times already. I think that I was good at it because I believed in what I was selling. If it was solar panels or something, I might not have been as enthusiastic. Right. But because I really believed that I looked better and that the women that use the product look better, and it built confidence in my appearance that I could sell it easy. It wasn't. It wasn't a sales job to me. I was being very sincere, and I think that. I think sincerity comes across when you. When you work with people.

677
01:22:59,570 --> 01:22:59,890
Chris: Yeah.

678
01:22:59,930 --> 01:23:19,988
Nancy: And I think people trusted me, and I didn't. I don't think anybody ever felt like they were ever going to be, like, scammed or anything like that. So I think they felt comfortable, probably, with me. I think I. I think I sort of have that in my nature. I'm a nurturer, and I think, you know, I helped people, and I think that they just felt like it would be an okay thing to do.

679
01:23:20,044 --> 01:23:37,100
Chris: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. There's really no substitute for authenticity. I find, too. You know, it's like if you really believe in the thing, then it's, you know, it's that much easier to kind of just communicate that you believe in it. And, you know, why not? If you trust me, then, and I believe in it, then it's easy for you to believe in it, too, right?

680
01:23:37,140 --> 01:24:18,670
Nancy: I mean, I never tried to mislead people. I never. I never tried to pull the wall over anybody. You know, I could never do that in good faith because it's just not who I am as a person. So I just think believing in the whole concept of the product, being a good product, but also being a good way to make some extra money. And it wasn't even really as much about the money as it was about the friendships and the camaraderie and seeing people that had not a lot of confidence really blossom, you know, in the environment and being cared for by other people and being part of a group, you know, like any big group. You know, people like to be involved.

681
01:24:18,790 --> 01:24:19,998
Chris: Sure. They like to feel like they're, they.

682
01:24:20,014 --> 01:24:30,302
Nancy: Like to feel part of something grew great relationships. You all kind of shared the same goals. So there were a lot of things about it that it wasn't about just money, certainly, at all.

683
01:24:30,406 --> 01:24:59,700
Chris: This is actually a good segue because I wanted to ask if there was anything that you felt was not transparent, particularly between the company and yourself, particularly before you joined and after you joined. Like, was there anything that you found out that was like a surprise fee or a surprise like requirement, like you can't earn money till you get this level or anything of that nature that you were surprised to learn after you joined?

684
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:42,734
Nancy: Not that I can think of. I do think, though, as you climb up and you recognize that, you become a director, you know, you recognize that there are obviously goals that have to be met, right. Sales goals that have to be met. And so as much as the company or somebody might say this is, you do it on your own terms and as much or as little as you want. Well, obviously, when you get to a certain point, it really isn't as much or as little as you want. You really have to meet these goals. If you just want to sell, you know, $50 a month, that was fine. If you just want to sort of be a standalone kind of person. But even then, you know, we would try to encourage people to sell, right?

685
01:25:42,782 --> 01:26:03,080
Nancy: Because they're selling and ordering, and then if they order, then you get the credit for the order. Right. So it wasn't like were on the phone beating on people, but you certainly would try to encourage them at sales meetings and whatnot, to buy the product and try to have more beauty shows. Maybe you only want to do one a month, but maybe we would try to encourage you to do more.

686
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:04,120
Chris: Right, right.

687
01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:06,928
Nancy: But not ever heavy handed or anything.

688
01:26:07,064 --> 01:26:19,214
Chris: Got it. So you would say maybe it was a little unexpected. How? Like the time commitment was maybe like a little unexpected, but I. But there was nothing explicit that was like a surprise. Gotcha. Or anything like that.

689
01:26:19,262 --> 01:26:33,854
Nancy: Right. I think that's a good. Probably a good way to put it. I never felt like anything was deliberately trying to be underhanded in any way. But the reality is, in order to grow the business, you have to work at it like anything else.

690
01:26:33,902 --> 01:26:34,686
Chris: Right. Which is true.

691
01:26:34,758 --> 01:26:55,856
Nancy: You have to talk to other women. You had to make calls. You had to go out at night to do a beauty show. Show. Sometimes you didn't do very well, and you had to overcome that fear, you know, that failure. I remember the first time I had a beauty show, went all the way to some place maybe 20 miles away, and a group of women and I sold $4 worth.

692
01:26:55,888 --> 01:26:56,660
Chris: That's it.

693
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:58,424
Nancy: And I was devastated.

694
01:26:58,552 --> 01:27:00,224
Chris: That's a character building moment right there.

695
01:27:00,272 --> 01:27:38,236
Nancy: It was just devastating, you know, and my director had to. Had to build me up. Right. So as a director, you found yourself in that situation. We had to build somebody up and tell them not to, you know, dwell on it. And there'd be, you know, the old sales adage, you know, you have to get ten no's before you get your first yes. Right. It was a constant. It was a constant thing because you're talking to different people in your organization, and women go to women to say, I didn't do very well, and I went all that way. I lugged all my stuff. And I remember saying, and all they were interested in was having the dessert at the end. Dessert and coffee, you know.

696
01:27:38,348 --> 01:27:39,460
Chris: Well, I can respect that.

697
01:27:39,500 --> 01:27:43,372
Nancy: I mean, you know, and that. And it was like, that's hard.

698
01:27:43,436 --> 01:27:43,636
Chris: Right.

699
01:27:43,668 --> 01:27:45,300
Nancy: But sales is hard, of course.

700
01:27:45,340 --> 01:27:45,564
Chris: Yeah.

701
01:27:45,612 --> 01:28:14,366
Nancy: And I don't. They don't necessarily tell you that when they recruit. When you're recruiting people, you're not going to say, well, it's going to be really hard. You know, you're going to have to work at it. But I think that's where the hidden piece of it is that it is a hard. It is hard. You get a lot of no's right to get the beauty shows right. It's never as quite as easy as you think it's going to be from that perspective. I think it's kind of like when you get into any job, you see what the reality of it is.

702
01:28:14,438 --> 01:28:36,092
Chris: Sure. You know, it sounds like your experience overall was very positive. Do you feel like that is a common experience, or do you feel like there were other women that you knew in the organization that maybe felt like it was more of a false hope and they didn't get what they wanted out of it? Or, like, did you have any visibility on that at all?

703
01:28:36,196 --> 01:29:23,986
Nancy: I would say yes, always. You know, there's always people that join hoping to be successful. Right. You're watching somebody like a meg who is so enthusiastic, so positive all the time, and you always hope that it'll be that same way for you. Right. And it isn't right. It just isn't right. Everybody's different. Everybody has a different ability. They sell things differently, they appeal to people differently. And so I would say that there were people that were disappointed, and it wasn't what we told them it would be right because they couldn't get the beauty shows going. They didn't want to drive someplace to do it, or they didn't want to go out at night or, you know, whatever it might be. Right. So, of course, there's negative. There's not going to ever be 100% positive.

704
01:29:24,058 --> 01:29:24,602
Chris: Sure.

705
01:29:24,746 --> 01:29:30,706
Nancy: You know, and then that's why, as I alluded to earlier, people coming and going all the time.

706
01:29:30,818 --> 01:29:35,874
Chris: Yeah. Was there was a lot. A high level of turnover and I.

707
01:29:35,882 --> 01:30:05,520
Nancy: Don'T know, you know, high level, but I do. It was. I mean, I would say it's continuous. You always had to. You always had to be on, as they say, to get the next person in or the next set of product, because people do come and go, you know, it's just the nature, I think, would be the nature of sales. I don't know. We just marry K, but I just think it's the nature of sales. So what the percentage of turnover was, whether it was considered high or not, I don't. You know what? I don't know the answer to that question.

708
01:30:05,830 --> 01:30:11,262
Chris: When you finally did leave the. In 1986 or seven.

709
01:30:11,326 --> 01:30:11,806
Nancy: Yeah.

710
01:30:11,918 --> 01:30:19,210
Chris: What was that like? Did they have, like, a going away party for you? Did they try to convince you not to leave? Did they do both?

711
01:30:20,110 --> 01:31:01,762
Nancy: I don't recall that anyone did a going away thing that maybe my group did. But from an organizational perspective, I do think the organization tried to have me transfer it down to Florida, of course. Right. And that there's directors down here they could. I could work with. In other words, my director would have always been Meg on paper, but they would have been fellow directors here or other leaders that I could have relied on to help me build my business here. And you can carry it because, you know, you could still have consultants there, and they can still be selling, Mary Kay, while you're in Florida. It's not, you know, and then you can just grow your business in Florida. So I do think they tried to do that. I would. I would think that have been.

712
01:31:01,786 --> 01:31:10,570
Nancy: It would have been a natural thing is to try to keep somebody in the organization. Right. Somebody that they kind of groomed and brought into the fold, if you will, you know.

713
01:31:10,650 --> 01:31:17,162
Chris: Right. Who got all of your recruits, all of your people underneath you. Did those just go to your director?

714
01:31:17,266 --> 01:31:21,514
Nancy: I think they went. They went to my director. Yeah. Whatever I had or whoever I had at the time.

715
01:31:21,602 --> 01:31:29,706
Chris: Gotcha. And so then at the end of the day, and I thinking, maybe I know the answer to this one as well. Did you. Did you make or lose money doing it?

716
01:31:29,818 --> 01:31:56,804
Nancy: I made money. I wouldn't say I made millions or anything, but, you know, we had a pretty hefty commission in terms of what we bought the wholesale for and what we sold it for. You know, obviously, you sell and then you reinvest. Right. And you reinvent. And so I had lots of inventory, and I was able to, you know, sell pretty much. So, I mean, I made my. It probably made enough money to make me happy in terms of. That's all I really wanted was sort of some pin money anyway.

717
01:31:56,892 --> 01:31:57,164
Chris: Sure.

718
01:31:57,212 --> 01:31:57,484
Nancy: Yeah.

719
01:31:57,532 --> 01:31:59,468
Chris: You weren't just money. It was.

720
01:31:59,524 --> 01:32:09,212
Nancy: Right. I wasn't out to make millions. I was just out to just maybe just to buy little extra things. You mean for the kids or for myself or whatever. Never really was in it to make a ton of money.

721
01:32:09,276 --> 01:32:09,756
Chris: Mm.

722
01:32:09,828 --> 01:32:11,100
Nancy: You know, but you.

723
01:32:11,140 --> 01:32:12,332
Chris: But you netted positive.

724
01:32:12,476 --> 01:32:14,316
Nancy: But I meant netted positive. Yeah.

725
01:32:14,388 --> 01:32:17,580
Chris: Do you think most people did or do. Are you not sure?

726
01:32:18,840 --> 01:32:38,192
Nancy: I would say price. Some people broke even. Right. They put their initial money in, made some sales, you know, maybe made their initial investment back. That would be what I say about netting even. Maybe some people lost money. How you would do that is if you ordered and then never sold it. Right, right. You know?

727
01:32:38,256 --> 01:32:39,648
Chris: Right. If you had unused inventory.

728
01:32:39,744 --> 01:32:40,336
Nancy: Right.

729
01:32:40,488 --> 01:32:53,346
Chris: Do you have any other interesting stories that we haven't talked about? Like, oh, this one time, you know, XYZ happened, and it was kind of weird or anything, maybe off or strange or.

730
01:32:54,930 --> 01:33:33,510
Nancy: Well, I suppose that, you know, the conventions were, you know, as you called it, pep rallies. They were on a massive scale in Dallas. Right. And so, you know, I did director and qualifications. I went to Dallas. That was just people that are becoming directors. But then annually they would have a convention. And, of course, that was where you wanted to go. Right. As a Mary Kay consultant, that was the thing to do, because, of course, Mary Kay was still alive at the time, and she would speak at the conventions and whatnot, and they would have live entertainment, you know, big name entertainment. And it was a big thing, just like any conference you go today. You'd go to seminars on different topics and whatnot.

731
01:33:33,550 --> 01:34:19,916
Nancy: And there's women came from all over the country or whatever, and dad went to a couple of them with me, and, you know, they would have golf tournaments for the husbands and things, and we still have Mary Kay pink golf ball that he got there. And we, I think it was, Johnny Mathis was one of the guests, entertainers that one year. And so they're wonderful. They were wonderful, you know, again, motivational, rah ZisKumbaugh type of thing. Of course, I would imagine any big sales convention would be very similar, you know, or any big religious event where you go to see Billy Graham or somebody. I'm sure it's all very similar. Right. You're in the. Because you sort of get wrapped up in that mentality, right. Everybody's all pumped up and excited, and that's what they play on.

732
01:34:19,948 --> 01:34:23,228
Nancy: That's exactly how that's that type of business, what it is.

733
01:34:23,284 --> 01:34:23,476
Chris: Right.

734
01:34:23,508 --> 01:34:27,330
Nancy: You can't go in there just like, oh, let's sell, you know?

735
01:34:27,410 --> 01:34:28,490
Chris: Right. Of course. Yeah.

736
01:34:28,530 --> 01:34:33,690
Nancy: You know, so I would say, I don't know that's unusual, but I think that those are definitely memorable.

737
01:34:33,810 --> 01:34:43,858
Chris: Yeah. The conventions, did you feel like they were, like, encouraging that sort of like a certain mentality, a certain, like, way of living, like, rah, rah, be positive and.

738
01:34:43,954 --> 01:34:44,682
Nancy: Oh, absolutely.

739
01:34:44,786 --> 01:34:47,690
Chris: If you're positive, then you'll get what you want kind of thing.

740
01:34:47,770 --> 01:35:22,272
Nancy: Oh, it was always about positivity. Right. I think it has to be. You know, as a matter of fact, at our sales meetings, we would, and you might have heard me say this through the years, you know, we would discourage being negative, and we would call you a negative Nelly if you were being negative at the sales meetings. Right. Because you don't want to be a Debbie downer. Right. Negative Nellie or a Debbie downer at the meetings and, oh, you can't sell and, oh, whatever. Right. So you'd have to try to turn it around from a positive perspective. Right, right. Which is why they would encourage you to sort of brag on yourself to say, well, you did. And then.

741
01:35:22,376 --> 01:35:26,824
Chris: So what constituted negativity? Was it basically coming in saying, like, I've had a tough time selling.

742
01:35:26,912 --> 01:35:41,848
Nancy: Right? Yeah. Yeah. I had a hard week. I didn't sell very much. I only sold $4 at my show. Right. Or I wasn't able to book any shows or, you know, any number of things, you know, and, you know, you might feel bummed. Right?

743
01:35:41,944 --> 01:35:42,248
Chris: Sure.

744
01:35:42,304 --> 01:35:51,170
Nancy: You feel bummed. You're trying to. Trying to grow your business, and you didn't have any luck. Or I wasn't able to talk to anybody this week, or I had all these goals, and I didn't make, you know. Didn't make them.

745
01:35:52,070 --> 01:36:15,302
Chris: Yeah. So the negative Nelly thing is actually something that I saw in my online research, as well. And it ties back. Of course. Well, that ties back to what we're talking about is the whole positivity negativity thing. And again, it's, you know, I saw people that were like, yeah. You know, I love that Mary Kay is so positive. And I saw people that were like, you know, I feel stifled by, like, you know, being said, I can't be. I can't voice concerns, so.

746
01:36:15,446 --> 01:36:25,510
Kayla: Because sometimes it's just like, you need to. You're not necessarily being inherently negative if you're, like, venting about the bummy things that happen to you. Like.

747
01:36:25,630 --> 01:36:25,958
Chris: Right.

748
01:36:26,014 --> 01:36:33,102
Kayla: That's not an aspect that I personally would respond to. Like, I'm somebody who needs to be able to, like, air both sides.

749
01:36:33,166 --> 01:36:33,486
Chris: Right.

750
01:36:33,558 --> 01:36:37,656
Kayla: For me, that would not be a motivating tactic.

751
01:36:37,728 --> 01:36:54,128
Chris: Yeah. And, I mean, it sounds like with Miss Carlson, like, that happened with her as well, you know, where her very first experience was kind of a, you know, a big downer for her. So clearly, whatever her director did was able to kind of, like, get her over that hump and motivate her.

752
01:36:54,184 --> 01:36:54,664
Kayla: Right.

753
01:36:54,792 --> 01:37:24,034
Chris: So, you know, I don't know what it was that she did. You know, I'm not. I doubt that she said, don't be a negative Nellie and get the hell out of here. She probably said words that were more encouraging than that. Right. So, I don't know. It's. It's. It's. Honestly, it's probably. And I think. I think I talk about this, actually. I think I'm just gonna be repeating myself again. But. But I think a lot of it just comes down to the actual person, too, you know, who some people are good at motivating and being encouraging, and some people are probably not as good at it.

754
01:37:24,082 --> 01:37:24,670
Kayla: Right.

755
01:37:26,410 --> 01:37:48,762
Nancy: I alluded to the fact earlier that the world was different then. You know, we didn't have cell phones or anything. We would cold call out of phone books a lot of times to get names. Right? Yeah, I would. I would. Personally, I would go up to my little office, and I would set aside time every. I don't know, every night or every other night or whatever to literally cold call.

756
01:37:48,866 --> 01:37:49,338
Chris: Wow.

757
01:37:49,434 --> 01:38:26,114
Nancy: And try to get people to open up their home, which, when you think about. It's kind of brave right now, but. And then you'd meet people, like, in the grocery store or at the whatever. Then you'd have to follow up on them. You know, you might put out a little thing at, like, a fair where they, you know, you give away something for free, and you put your name in the drawing, and then you take the drawing and you. Then you'd call people. So, you know, there's a lot of follow up and there's a lot of work. And so I think a lot of times people would come into the meetings kind of like, maybe they would be overwhelmed or. Sure, they're not nearly as aggressive or. I don't want to say they're not hardworking, but they're more timid. Right.

758
01:38:26,162 --> 01:38:32,990
Nancy: And it's hard for them to call and talk to somebody. So that's what people would be. Maybe more negative.

759
01:38:33,450 --> 01:38:59,280
Chris: I am a little bit curious about the. When you say, like, oh, don't be a Debbie downer or negative, Nelli. To me, as an outsider, it feels a little bit like some of those feelings might be legitimate. Like the week that you struggled and had your dollar four party. I think it's okay to feel bad about that. So would you say that it was more about building you back up and. And making you feel encouraged? Or was it more like, don't bring those negative feelings in here?

760
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:12,664
Nancy: No, no. I would say the other, I would say try to. Try to build them back up and say, you know, whatever it was that we would say that you're going to have what? You know, you're going to have a bad show in there once in a while, you know, kind of thing. And don't let it discourage you and.

761
01:39:12,752 --> 01:39:13,072
Chris: Okay.

762
01:39:13,096 --> 01:39:14,700
Nancy: You know, blah, blah. Like that.

763
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:15,560
Chris: Gotcha.

764
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:15,728
Kayla: Yeah.

765
01:39:15,744 --> 01:39:24,010
Nancy: But they. They certainly. People would certainly bring it. Bring it. Because that's where you would bring it. Right. Those are the only other people that'll understand what you're feeling anyway, right?

766
01:39:24,090 --> 01:39:25,042
Chris: Of course. Yeah.

767
01:39:25,146 --> 01:39:26,802
Nancy: How did. Because it's discouraging.

768
01:39:26,866 --> 01:39:48,220
Chris: Of course it is. Yeah. It's legitimate. Yeah. So you mentioned the other members of your organization sort of had a unique perspective on, like, the trials and tribulations, so to speak. That reminded me. How did I. How did dad feel about all this? Was he, like, super encouraging? Was he. I mean, he went with you to the conferences, so it sounds like he was into it.

769
01:39:49,160 --> 01:40:26,698
Nancy: I think he was encouraging because I think that's his nature anyway. He's very supportive of whatever I would choose to do. And he probably felt like if I wanted to do it good, you know, it gave me something, quote unquote, for myself to do, focus on. And I do think I gained confidence in terms of, at least from a sales perspective, and how to handle that, how to be motivational with people, how to say the right thing to make them feel better, because you sort of have to. As a director, especially, you just have to know the right things to say when you have a four dollar show or you don't sell anything.

770
01:40:26,754 --> 01:40:27,210
Chris: Right, right.

771
01:40:27,250 --> 01:40:43,356
Nancy: You know, you have to sort of acknowledge their concern and then help them move on to a different place, you know? So I think that all those are positives, but I don't think he ever felt.

772
01:40:43,548 --> 01:40:49,388
Chris: Was he ever skeptical of the financial implications, like, that might cost you money potentially?

773
01:40:49,564 --> 01:41:09,378
Nancy: No, I don't think so, because it really wasn't much money, really. Do you know what I mean? You invest that initial amount to get you training kit and all of that. But I. But it wasn't like you're talking thousands and thousands of dollars or anything like that. You kind of ordered as you went. Right. So I might get low on inventory. So then I would need to order more. Got it.

774
01:41:09,394 --> 01:41:12,410
Chris: So it wasn't like you had to pay several thousand dollars upfront.

775
01:41:12,450 --> 01:41:17,470
Nancy: No, no. So I. Maybe then I think you might be a little more skeptical.

776
01:41:18,490 --> 01:41:41,220
Chris: So it was interesting. You were just talking about some of the things that you. The skills you developed as a consultant. Consultant and later director and trying to encourage people who are having bad sales days or, you know, recruiting sales, all that stuff. Would you say that was a key piece of your career development that later enabled you to be an effective leader at Disney?

777
01:41:41,600 --> 01:42:03,650
Nancy: I think that the skills are transferable. It certainly, as a director, Mary Kay, you were. I was a leader. Right. I had to learn how to motivate and inspire and all that. And I think that's something that I do quite well with my team members today. So I think that there's probably indirect transferable skills there.

778
01:42:03,730 --> 01:42:14,154
Chris: Yeah. You'd say you got that sort of like that training skills, almost like you sort of had some. Some leadership training that later benefited you later. You got value out of.

779
01:42:14,242 --> 01:42:37,824
Nancy: Yeah, I think so. On the sales piece of, say, I find myself going to that not all the time, but definitely anticipating people's responses and how perhaps, like, if you're going to do have maybe a meeting that you anticipate some confrontation or something, you can kind of anticipate what the comments might be and how you might want to in advance kind of set the stage so you can combat those objections. Sure.

780
01:42:37,872 --> 01:42:38,176
Chris: Sure.

781
01:42:38,248 --> 01:43:19,700
Nancy: I mean, it's not objections in terms of sales, but I think you always have situations with his confrontation, potential for confrontation and anticipating what that might be. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of skills that I could transfer, but I don't know that I could say because of Mary Kay, I am where I am today. You know, it didn't hurt. Right. It was helped in a lot of ways, and it served, ultimately, I guess the answer is it served its purpose at a time in my life that it happened at a good time in my life where I had given up my career at GE, needed to feel fulfilled, wanted to accomplish and achieve something in the context of being a stay at home mom. So it served its purpose at that time in my life.

782
01:43:19,740 --> 01:43:21,028
Nancy: I think it's a good way to put it.

783
01:43:21,124 --> 01:44:16,520
Chris: That's. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I thought that was a really interesting summation of some of the stuff that we've been talking about, and we'll continue to talk about regarding the, you know, intangibles, regarding the non monetary things that. That you get out of engaging with something like this. Right. It served its purpose at a time in my life and in particular a time in her life when, you know, she had been in the workforce and then, you know, was a homemaker but still wanted to fulfill some of those social and achievement needs. So that, you know, it's an interesting summation of that to me. So the name of the game, as you know, of course, is cult or just weird. As an insider, someone with firsthand knowledge of Mary Kay cosmetics, what would your verdict be and why?

784
01:44:16,900 --> 01:45:12,310
Nancy: Well, I think your gut would be that because of, like, the pep rally ish aspect of the singing, the song and the charismatic leader and all that, you know, the follower, you know, the follower mentality and sort of the adoration. Right. Of America, an iconic symbol who built this business for women. You know, I think your gut would go towards when you hear about the cultish aspect sometimes of other cults. Right. But it doesn't I don't believe it meets the other criteria in that, you know, no harm. You know, there's not been harm. There was never like, oh, you can't get out of this now, you know, you have to stay, you know, in the business, or you have to buy $10,000 worth of product, and, you know, there was not any of that heavy handedness or anything done against anybody's will.

785
01:45:12,690 --> 01:46:15,740
Nancy: I don't think it was anything was misleading or anti factual or whatever the terminology was. Having been sort of on the inside. I think that they were clever in their marketing. They knew how to appeal to women, what excited women and what women sort of needed in their lives. But I don't ever think it was in a negative way. I just think it was the marketing and the pink cars and the. And the tchotchkes at the meetings and things. I think they appealed to him, but I don't think they did. They were growing their business for a product that appealed to women. But I never felt, you know, in retrospect, I never felt taken advantage of or scammed or threatened or. The only thing that was, you know, difficult is that it was a business.

786
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:49,870
Nancy: And like anything else in life, you sort of got out of it what you put into it. And maybe some women joined thinking it was going to be easier than it was and that, you know, things would come their way. And again, nothing ever comes your way. You just sort of have to work at almost everything in life, whether it's a relationship, whether it's at work, whether it's at a business or whatever. And I think that's so. And. But I don't think it's just weird either. I just think it was clever marketing.

787
01:46:49,990 --> 01:46:51,838
Chris: What about the song? The song wasn't weird.

788
01:46:51,974 --> 01:46:59,364
Nancy: I think the song, you sort of laugh at it now, right? And that's, in retrospect, yeah. But I think it served a purpose.

789
01:46:59,502 --> 01:46:59,896
Chris: Right.

790
01:46:59,968 --> 01:47:15,904
Nancy: Just like. Just like a cheerleading session does it at a school, you use the term pep rally. Why do they do that? It gets to get people pumped up and excited about stuff. So I think it served its purpose. It sounds silly now singing it, but at the time it felt okay, right?

791
01:47:15,952 --> 01:47:20,776
Chris: Sure. Yeah. And it's like any other, like you said, there's. Universities have their own fight songs. Sure.

792
01:47:20,808 --> 01:47:31,610
Nancy: They have fight songs and cheerleaders and all that. So there's obviously a reason for that type of thing that people do. And I think it's the exact same thing. We didn't have people cheerleading at the front of the room, but we sang.

793
01:47:31,650 --> 01:47:33,442
Chris: And we sort of did in a way.

794
01:47:33,506 --> 01:47:37,834
Nancy: In a way, I guess it just sort of helped everybody just bond together.

795
01:47:37,962 --> 01:47:38,322
Chris: Right.

796
01:47:38,386 --> 01:47:38,990
Nancy: Right.

797
01:47:39,450 --> 01:47:46,162
Chris: Well, I appreciate your time. This has been a fascinating discussion. Is there anything else you'd like to say to our listeners before we sign off?

798
01:47:46,346 --> 01:48:00,320
Nancy: No, I don't think I have anything more to say, you know, about Mary Kay, other than I wouldn't. I hope I didn't portray it in a negative light. It served its purpose in a different time. I think it would be different today.

799
01:48:00,780 --> 01:48:05,300
Chris: Yeah. To me, it sounded like you from everything you said, you had a very positive experience.

800
01:48:05,380 --> 01:48:28,746
Nancy: I had a positive experience. It was hard work, cold calling, talking to strangers. But that's how we had to grow the business. It probably might be easier today with social media. Maybe we be easier today. But back then, it was a lot more personal contact and really having to, as I said several times to be on. And from that perspective, it was difficult because you could never let it go.

801
01:48:28,858 --> 01:48:29,178
Chris: Right.

802
01:48:29,234 --> 01:48:45,598
Nancy: It was always sort of in the back of your head that I should talk to that woman behind me in line, that I should talk to that lady at church or whatever. And if there's any negative, that was what it was. But not because were forced to do it, but because we knew that's how you got the business.

803
01:48:45,774 --> 01:49:05,750
Chris: That makes sense. Thank you for your time, misses Carlson. It's been great having you on the show. Maybe we can talk again at some point later. And of course, if you think of anything in between now and when we actually record and edit the rest of this episode, you know, feel free to email me any details or let me know anything.

804
01:49:05,870 --> 01:49:06,294
Nancy: Okay.

805
01:49:06,342 --> 01:49:07,014
Chris: Thank you for your time.

806
01:49:07,062 --> 01:49:09,340
Nancy: Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.

807
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:33,296
Chris: So that was interesting. I know we talked about bits as went, but I guess, like the first thing, by the time I had done this interview, I had already done a lot of the online research, and I had listened to the dream and whatnot. And so my first thought was kind of like, what the fuck is going on here?

808
01:49:33,328 --> 01:49:34,238
Kayla: Right, right.

809
01:49:34,424 --> 01:49:48,946
Chris: And I think we sort of have some insight on that now a little bit, which we'll talk about. But it was very confusing. And I. I do think the first thing I thought actually was, well, this is appropriate for the show because it's like I'm confused now.

810
01:49:49,018 --> 01:49:51,430
Kayla: Right, right. The more confusing the better.

811
01:49:51,930 --> 01:50:18,710
Chris: But. But, yeah, like, there's. There's certainly a discrepancy between what she described as her experience and what we know to be true about mlms in the industry in general and the structure I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that? Because I definitely want to get your take, because like I said, right after this happened, right after I heard these answers from her, I was pretty confused. So I'm curious about what your thoughts are right now.

812
01:50:19,490 --> 01:50:45,090
Kayla: I guess what it just makes me. What all this makes me think about, like, thinking about the previous episode where you talked about the nature of, like, mlms in general, and then being able to hear the experience of somebody who seemed to really enjoy their time in it and seem to have success. And success doesn't necessarily need to be measured by, like, the amount of money you make.

813
01:50:45,130 --> 01:50:45,402
Nancy: Right.

814
01:50:45,466 --> 01:51:07,930
Kayla: Like, because there are multiple reasons to get involved with an MLM. You could lose money and still be successful. You know what I mean? Not for somebody who is financially desperate and not somebody who's being taken advantage of and exploited in that way by an MLM. But if you're a person that's going to a Mary Kay or going to a lularoe or going to a whatever, simply with.

815
01:51:08,010 --> 01:51:09,790
Chris: Probably not that second one, but, yeah.

816
01:51:10,370 --> 01:51:19,906
Kayla: With more of a. For you. There's a variety of ways to find success that don't necessarily hinge on the financial component.

817
01:51:20,018 --> 01:51:20,674
Chris: Right.

818
01:51:20,842 --> 01:51:41,010
Kayla: I guess it's like the system is exploitive, but not to everyone. And I think a lot of systems that are exploitive are like that. Like, you know, we talk. This is gonna get deep, but we talk about that a lot with various systems in society. Like, they can be exploitive to marginalized people and not exploitive to non marginalized people.

819
01:51:41,090 --> 01:51:41,594
Chris: Right.

820
01:51:41,722 --> 01:51:44,418
Kayla: So I think maybe that. Don't you think that's danger, though?

821
01:51:44,474 --> 01:51:45,870
Chris: I mean, like, sure, of course.

822
01:51:46,370 --> 01:51:58,618
Kayla: But I also think it's something that you and I talk about a lot. The, like, social justice versus individual justice, how sometimes those things don't quite line up.

823
01:51:58,634 --> 01:52:00,202
Chris: They don't line up sometimes. Right.

824
01:52:00,306 --> 01:52:09,714
Kayla: This system, which is built, unfortunately, to be exploitive, that's not necessarily going to be the nature of every. In every individual experience.

825
01:52:09,882 --> 01:52:15,178
Chris: Yeah. I'm also not convinced that all of these systems were built to be exploitive.

826
01:52:15,274 --> 01:52:18,350
Kayla: Okay. When I say that, I don't. I don't mean, like, consciously.

827
01:52:18,450 --> 01:52:22,902
Chris: Well, no, I know, but I think some. Some definitely are.

828
01:52:22,966 --> 01:52:23,406
Kayla: Okay.

829
01:52:23,478 --> 01:52:31,462
Chris: Based on my research, and then some, I think, find themselves being drawn more that way.

830
01:52:31,526 --> 01:52:38,170
Kayla: What's the nature of the beast? Like, if you are an MLM, if you. If you're. If the way you make money is not by creating value.

831
01:52:38,470 --> 01:52:38,918
Chris: Yeah.

832
01:52:38,974 --> 01:52:40,718
Kayla: Then isn't that gonna kind of just happen?

833
01:52:40,814 --> 01:53:12,510
Chris: Yeah. Well, it's in. But that's the thing, though, right? Like, maybe Mary Kay is creating a value with their skincare products, right? But it, once you pursue a business model that involves this sort of, like, mathematically unsustainable thing that can, at its core, is, you know, prone to exploiting, then it almost doesn't matter what the product is because now you're doing that and you can get sucked more into it. And in fact, we talk about this a bit more. But I just, I wanted to get your initial take because after that interview, I was like, what? What's going on?

834
01:53:12,670 --> 01:53:41,826
Kayla: But, yeah, I mean, it's, honestly, it's very, it lightens my heart a bit, honestly, to hear. And granted, we're right now, we've only listened to one person's experience. But it does lighten my heart to know that it is possible to have a good and successful experience in the system that is, unfortunately, by conscious or unconscious design, can hurt a lot of people. It's nice to know that doesn't always happen and that there's different ways.

835
01:53:41,858 --> 01:53:44,626
Chris: To find, at least in Mary Kay.

836
01:53:44,738 --> 01:53:45,106
Kayla: Right.

837
01:53:45,178 --> 01:53:45,834
Chris: In 19.

838
01:53:45,962 --> 01:54:02,890
Kayla: Right, right. I'm talking specifically about Mary Kay in 1981. I have no idea what the situation is now or in other organizations. It just, it does make me, it makes me feel good to hear that this was a good experience, especially for somebody like as baller as your mom, you know?

839
01:54:02,970 --> 01:54:40,382
Chris: Yeah. So I definitely have more to say about this whole thing because this is the thing that, again, after I did this research and then had this interview, I was, this was the thing that was kind of, like, boiling in my brain. So what's going on here? So that's kind of the thing that I followed up on. And so I'll tell you what I think my own personal conclusions are. But before I do that, I want to walk you back to a few weeks ago when I was still being stumped by this enigma. I wanted to reach out to a second person that knows about Mary Kay, was involved more recently than the eighties, and might be able to offer some perspective for that.

840
01:54:40,446 --> 01:54:54,872
Chris: I reached out to a woman by the name of Tracy Conan, who runs a website of one of my primary research sources. So I actually talked about this in the previous episode as a research source. And this is the website pinktruth.com dot.

841
01:54:54,926 --> 01:54:58,668
Kayla: You talked to the person who runs pink truth? Like, I've heard of pink truth.

842
01:54:58,764 --> 01:54:59,444
Chris: Yeah.

843
01:54:59,612 --> 01:55:00,276
Kayla: Damn.

844
01:55:00,348 --> 01:55:02,556
Chris: Yeah. She did an interview for Cultor. Just weird.

845
01:55:02,628 --> 01:55:03,420
Kayla: That's amazing.

846
01:55:03,500 --> 01:55:05,764
Chris: Yeah. I don't know why she did that? Like, we're small time.

847
01:55:05,812 --> 01:55:07,892
Kayla: Thank you, Tracy. That's amazing.

848
01:55:07,956 --> 01:55:19,452
Chris: Yeah. And she's sort of on the baller level of Miss Carlson, it sounds like I keep wanting to, like, say, like, miss Carlson and not my mom. Cause I don't want it to be like my family in the show, but.

849
01:55:19,476 --> 01:55:20,084
Kayla: That'S what it is.

850
01:55:20,132 --> 01:55:38,390
Chris: Yeah, I know. Anyway, so we haven't really talked about pink truth, other than the fact that I've said that. I did a lot of reading on it. But essentially, it's, at its core, it's an informational resource for current and former Mary Kay beauty consultants, but also a good resource if you are considering becoming one.

851
01:55:38,470 --> 01:55:38,950
Kayla: Okay.

852
01:55:39,030 --> 01:55:45,270
Chris: If you recall from last episode, and even from this episode, information is hard to come by in the MLM space by design.

853
01:55:45,350 --> 01:55:45,806
Kayla: Right.

854
01:55:45,918 --> 01:55:54,698
Chris: Pink Truth is definitely highly critical of the company and its practices, but really no more so than we have been about mlms in general, starting with last episode.

855
01:55:54,754 --> 01:55:55,322
Kayla: Got it.

856
01:55:55,426 --> 01:56:29,220
Chris: So, yeah. So Tracy was kind enough to join me on Skype for a quick interview about Mary Kay and mlMs. And specifically, I reached out to her again because I was confused. I was like, do you know why this might be the case? What's going on here? And she had a lot to say. So without further ado, we will play my interview now with Tracy Conan. First of all, thanks for jumping on the call. I really appreciate your time. If you could give us a quick background on yourself, who you are and where you come from, that kind of thing, just to kind of level set for our listeners.

857
01:56:29,340 --> 01:56:58,720
Tracy Coenen: I'm Tracy Conan. I'm a forensic accountant. I have been in solo practice for more than 19 years. I'm based in Milwaukee. I do quite a bit of my work in the Chicago area, but I do take cases around the country, and I was in Mary Kay between 1998 and 2000. So quite a while ago now, never achieved the levels of success that were, of course, presented to me as possible.

858
01:56:59,260 --> 01:57:53,264
Tracy Coenen: And after a couple of years in Mary Kay, I had started my own forensic accounting practice, did both of the things at the same time, and at some point decided that forensic accounting was really where my future was and had kind of gotten wise to what the deal was with Mary Kay, in essence, that it is a grand scam that takes money from millions of women every year, and I wanted no part of that anymore. So left Mary Kay to focus completely on forensic accounting, and about five years later, got interested in researching multilevel marketing, found some people online who were discussing Mary Kay and other multilevel marketing companies and got involved in discussions about, you know, the abuses that I saw in the company, and my ultimate conclusion, that it was a scam and that multilevel marketing in general was a scam.

859
01:57:53,432 --> 01:58:47,300
Tracy Coenen: And from there, after, you know, being involved in some various discussion boards and things like that, I decided to start a website in 2006 focused on Mary Kay. And initially it started really as something that was going to be just for fun, kind of a gossip site. And I got some great interest in the site early on, and a lot of people discussing the company. And I decided within a few months that maybe this was something that I should use a platform to really educate women about what's going on in Mary Kay and other mlms. And then I started to take the site more seriously and started to really push to educate women and the general public about the facts of multilevel marketing and, of course, Mary Kay specifically. And that's how pink truth started. We started in July of 2006.

860
01:58:47,840 --> 01:59:05,664
Tracy Coenen: So I think that makes us almost 13 years old now and still have a very robust following. You know, I watch the statistics about how many people are visiting the site, and, you know, we have over a million unique visitors a year that come to the site.

861
01:59:05,792 --> 01:59:08,260
Chris: Wow. One of those is me now.

862
01:59:08,800 --> 01:59:10,192
Tracy Coenen: Excellent. Thank you.

863
01:59:10,336 --> 01:59:14,980
Chris: Yeah, I've been poking around there for sure as part of my research on this episode.

864
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:17,980
Kayla: Okay. This is nothing to do with Mary Kay.

865
01:59:18,320 --> 01:59:20,808
Chris: Is this for the podcast or are you just telling me something?

866
01:59:20,904 --> 01:59:22,432
Kayla: This is. This is for the podcast.

867
01:59:22,496 --> 01:59:23,260
Chris: Okay.

868
01:59:24,120 --> 01:59:28,776
Kayla: What the fuck is a forensic accountant, and how do I be one?

869
01:59:28,928 --> 01:59:30,380
Chris: Why don't you unpause it?

870
01:59:31,160 --> 01:59:32,752
Kayla: But I'm talking to you now.

871
01:59:32,856 --> 01:59:37,340
Chris: Yeah, I'm telling you should probably unpause the. You should probably resume the interview.

872
01:59:37,420 --> 01:59:38,320
Kayla: Oh, God.

873
01:59:40,060 --> 01:59:43,080
Chris: So you actually covered, like, my first two or three questions.

874
01:59:44,260 --> 01:59:45,348
Tracy Coenen: Sorry, I just ran with you.

875
01:59:45,364 --> 01:59:59,876
Chris: No, that's great. That's great. That means that I was on the right track. That's awesome. Forensic accounting, by the way, sounds. It just sounds really interesting to me, actually. So this is not a question I had written down, but a little curious about what's involved in that work.

876
02:00:00,068 --> 02:00:55,110
Tracy Coenen: So my practice focuses completely on forensic accounting. I do not provide any traditional accounting services. Provide mostly fraud investigation services. That's the easiest way to sum it up. My practice is roughly divided into thirds. A third of what I do is the fraud investigations, typically involving corporations and upper level management and executives stealing from the companies. A third of what I do involves divorce work for very wealthy people who have interesting financial situations and are potentially hiding assets and hiding sources of income. And then the other third of the work is litigation work that involves contracts between businesses gone bad and people losing money, maybe business divorces, things like that. And so all of this sort of encompasses a fraud aspect to it, usually in some way, shape, or form.

877
02:00:55,490 --> 02:00:58,110
Chris: Right. That sounds super interesting to me.

878
02:00:59,450 --> 02:01:01,922
Kayla: I want to do that. I want to do that job.

879
02:01:01,986 --> 02:01:02,986
Chris: Did that answer your question?

880
02:01:03,058 --> 02:01:06,528
Kayla: How do I be that? That's the coolest thing I've ever heard.

881
02:01:06,624 --> 02:01:08,112
Chris: Well, you have to. Math good.

882
02:01:08,216 --> 02:01:08,816
Kayla: Can't.

883
02:01:08,928 --> 02:01:09,304
Chris: Okay.

884
02:01:09,352 --> 02:01:10,420
Kayla: Can I do it anyway?

885
02:01:11,640 --> 02:01:17,728
Chris: I mean, you are into doing, like, in depth research, so, you know, maybe.

886
02:01:17,824 --> 02:01:21,620
Kayla: Can we call ourselves forensic podcasters?

887
02:01:23,200 --> 02:01:26,616
Chris: I mean, I don't see why not. Yeah, let's do it. We don't need to have a license or anything. So.

888
02:01:26,648 --> 02:01:28,840
Kayla: Yeah, that's amazing.

889
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:32,662
Chris: Yeah, I thought that was pretty. I was like, sitting there listening to that, going like, whoa.

890
02:01:32,766 --> 02:01:34,490
Kayla: Yeah, that is definitely a whoa.

891
02:01:35,190 --> 02:01:48,450
Chris: So, regarding going back to pink truth, I guess you sort of answered this question a little bit. But what motivated you to pursue that project? Was it your time with Mary Kay? Like, what was the impetus for that for you?

892
02:01:49,470 --> 02:02:34,050
Tracy Coenen: So, in talking with other people online about their experiences in multilevel marketing, and more specifically in Mary Kay, I found that there were a lot of people wanting to talk about it. And various websites would come and go, various chat boards would come and go. And so I had this idea that I wanted to create a website that would live on into infinity for people to do this. What I saw was that people would get afraid because they'd be threatened with litigation or they'd be doxxed by other people and have their identities exposed. And there were things that made running a website like this a little bit scary for people, or they simply just got tired of it. It's a topic that can wear you out.

893
02:02:34,350 --> 02:03:25,168
Tracy Coenen: There's a lot of abuse heaped upon you when you have a site like this by people who are involved in mlms. I can't tell you the amount of verbal abuse I've taken in phone calls, voicemails, emails. I had a group of people who literally set out to destroy my forensic accounting business by attempting to contact my book publisher, clients of mine, professional organizations that I belong to, filing false reports with licensing agencies about me, and things of the sort. When you are impacting people the way that pink truth has, they can get very vicious. And so I didn't actually know how serious it could become and what these folks could do when they're angry with you. But I did know that people are being scared off from having these websites. And so I said, okay, here's what I'm going to do.

894
02:03:25,224 --> 02:03:55,800
Tracy Coenen: I'm going to start a website and I'm going to keep it running. And what's funny is within about the first year of the site being active, and it was very active right away, Mary Kay Incorporated was of course, notified by its salesforce that this was going on. And they put out communications to their highest level of people in the pyramid and said the best way to deal with this is to just ignore it because eventually it's going to go away. Well, 13 years later, here we are. And I'm actually pretty proud of that fact.

895
02:03:56,180 --> 02:04:12,600
Chris: Yeah, of course. Yeah, 13 years. Wow. That's so crazy about the sort of the retaliatory stuff. I don't necessarily want to go too much into that, obviously, but just the fact that it's happening and that's so, ugh, man, it's scary.

896
02:04:12,940 --> 02:04:13,900
Tracy Coenen: It's gross.

897
02:04:14,060 --> 02:04:53,834
Chris: Yeah, yeah, gross is a good word. Okay, sort of a two in one question here about mlms in general. Do you think there are any MLM companies that could be considered, quote unquote, like legitimate businesses? As a forensic, since you're an expert here, is that something you think any MLM company could be a legitimate business? And if not, then is there maybe a spectrum of legitimacy, do you think? Are some mlms more up and up than others? Or is it just kind of, they're all bad based on their, you know, fundamentally on the business model, MLM is.

898
02:04:53,882 --> 02:05:45,522
Tracy Coenen: Always bad and it's always a scam. And here's the reason, because they are always based on endless chain recruiting. Number one, mathematically it can never work because you run out of people too fast. Number two, they will try to focus your attention on the retailing of products. But what we have seen through research, through the data that is provided by the companies themselves, we have seen that retailing occurs in such small amounts that it is nearly impossible to make a living simply from retailing the products. So the recruiting doesn't really work. The retailing doesn't really work. It's not actually a business. Now, there are some mlms that are going to refer to themselves as direct sales, and really it's a misnomer. And it's meant to draw attention away from the recruiting.

899
02:05:45,706 --> 02:06:18,506
Tracy Coenen: If there were a business that was strictly sales, which is what direct sales tries to be, that might be okay. But again, you go back to the way the numbers work, and what we've seen is that these products and the pricing and the way the competition is set up in these companies, it is almost impossible to actually make a living selling their products. So direct sales sounds fabulous, but your possibility of actually being able to do it successfully and make a living from it is almost impossible.

900
02:06:18,698 --> 02:06:25,750
Chris: Right. I've heard the number that I've come up in doing this research is it's less than 1% chance of success.

901
02:06:26,530 --> 02:06:36,590
Tracy Coenen: Right. Less than 1% of people involved in multilevel marketing actually turn a profit. So you'd better going and sitting at a roulette table.

902
02:06:37,900 --> 02:06:47,252
Chris: That's why I say almost the exact same thing. And I've already started writing the script for the episode and what I say that about, but I say I use slot machines instead.

903
02:06:47,396 --> 02:06:48,080
Tracy Coenen: Sure.

904
02:06:49,580 --> 02:07:28,840
Chris: Do you think that there is a possibility that certain companies can become more MLM y, for lack of a better word, over time? Like, can they transition their business model more towards that or away? And do you think that's something that could possibly have happened with Mary Kay? And I guess by Mlme, I mean, like, you know, like, let's say I have a business and it's, you know, I'm just selling things like normal, and then I, you know, suddenly I'm like, hey, wait, what if I started doing a recruiting scheme and then now I'm becoming as a business, more. More like an MLM? Do you think that's something that's possible or that may have happened with Mary Kay or could have happened in the.

905
02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:47,808
Tracy Coenen: Early years of Mary Kay? There definitely was a greater focus on selling. And I think that at that time, it was possible to develop a viable retail business because women didn't have as many opportunities to buy their personal care products.

906
02:07:47,944 --> 02:07:48,216
Nancy: Right.

907
02:07:48,248 --> 02:08:27,468
Tracy Coenen: There were so many stay at home moms who didn't get out of the house a lot. And so this in home party model saw a lot of success early on. It was a really great option for women to be able to buy things and so you could develop a retail selling business that way. But as time went on, Mary Kay and her executives found that recruiting people and getting them to buy inventory packages and getting their money in hand immediately, whether or not they had sold to any customers, was very lucrative. And that's what we see happens with companies that maybe start out with a. With a quote, better model that is focused on retailing.

908
02:08:27,644 --> 02:09:14,206
Tracy Coenen: Once they see the amount of money that can be made by the owners of the companies by doing this recruiting model and then enticing the recruits to buy, either buy inventory packages or buy products recurring on a monthly basis, things like that. There's so much money to be made that these companies all eventually become more and more MLM like and more focused on the recruiting, because that's really where the money is. When you go back down to the retail sales level and you look for third party customers actually buying the products and you see how little there is there. You have to focus on the recruiting and getting the distributors to buy the products. And whether those products sit in their basements or garages, who cares? The company's already made their money.

909
02:09:14,358 --> 02:09:38,276
Chris: Right. Right. That's a little off script for my questions here, too, but it's so fascinating that evolution sort of just based on seeing the bottom line. Like, I can. I can picture that in a boardroom. Right? Yeah. So you'll notice there that now, of course, I didn't talk to Tracy ahead of time about all the word shenanigans I was going to use on the previous episode with making money versus getting money.

910
02:09:38,388 --> 02:09:38,900
Kayla: Right.

911
02:09:39,020 --> 02:10:26,820
Chris: But I think that it's actually instructive to talk about it just. Just for a second here because it sounds like that's what, to me, what I hear when I hear about companies that evolve in the manner that she describes is I hear executive teams and I hear boardrooms and leadership in these companies that lose focus on that value creation aspect. And if you're more focused and more focused on just getting the money rather than making the money right, then it doesn't matter how you get it, as long as you get it right. And it seems like it's. When you lose that focus that this type of evolution is, I mean, scarily natural.

912
02:10:26,940 --> 02:10:31,220
Kayla: That's what I was gonna say, is that it, like, it almost feels like a virus.

913
02:10:31,380 --> 02:10:32,004
Chris: A little bit.

914
02:10:32,052 --> 02:10:41,632
Kayla: It almost feels like if somebody comes up with an idea that has the potential to be. Become MLM, it's gonna be like you. You're gonna become an MLM?

915
02:10:41,696 --> 02:10:42,648
Chris: Yeah, potentially.

916
02:10:42,704 --> 02:10:55,300
Kayla: It's like. Like when you just. When you just said that, it's. It's almost natural like that. I don't know, that just makes me think of, like, weird slippery slope situation. Like, it's really easy to understand.

917
02:10:55,760 --> 02:10:56,336
Chris: Right.

918
02:10:56,448 --> 02:10:57,472
Kayla: How this happens.

919
02:10:57,536 --> 02:11:47,918
Chris: Sure. I think I might even say a little bit of this during the interview with her. But, yeah, I mean, I can totally envision that. That meeting, right, with the CFO and presenting to the boardroom. Hey, look, we changed our strategy, our marketing model, and our sales went up 300% last quarter. And then, like, great job, Jim. You know, let's start doing that now. Right. And then it's like, okay, well, but where is the room at the table for that to talk about the. The ethics of the, like, the, you know, triangle structure there, right. Like, it. I don't know. It's. It's. It's tough. It's so tough. And it's. You know, and that's. I mean, now we're. I don't want to, like, go too much into this because then we start talking about just, like, corporate ethics in general.

920
02:11:48,014 --> 02:12:09,906
Chris: And, you know, MLMs are certainly not the only corporations that engage in questionable ethics. So, you know, this is a rabbit hole that we have to rapidly back out of, or else we will sink. Maybe we'll talk about this stuff on a future show. And by maybe, I mean definitely. But, yeah, I can see where absent strong ethical leadership, this type of thing can happen.

921
02:12:09,978 --> 02:12:32,740
Kayla: Right. Even maybe with strong ethical leadership, like, it's probably really easy to. It's kind of like we all have two people operating us, and it's probably really easy to kind of let the little, like, baser man living in your head kind of run rampant with this thing while you have, like, the higher level. You being like, no, we're really providing.

922
02:12:32,860 --> 02:12:34,500
Chris: Freud would call it the super evil.

923
02:12:34,620 --> 02:12:48,586
Kayla: Yeah, sure. That I choose to not invoke him. Cause he sucks. But you know what I mean? It's like, you can probably really convince yourself as an ethical person. Like, I can't. I just can't picture everybody being, like, mustache twirling.

924
02:12:48,738 --> 02:12:56,514
Chris: Yeah, we talked about this last episode, right. How I think that, like, a lot of these CEO's, a lot of these people in these leadership positions, I'm sure they're drinking their own Kool Aid.

925
02:12:56,562 --> 02:12:57,034
Kayla: Right, right.

926
02:12:57,082 --> 02:13:08,226
Chris: They have to be. Right. And another thing. And then we'll go back to the interview. But, you know, we talked about this earlier in the episode. Mary Kay Ash herself gave a lot of money to charity.

927
02:13:08,298 --> 02:13:08,506
Kayla: Right?

928
02:13:08,538 --> 02:13:14,332
Chris: She started a foundation that, you know, so one hand, she's doing something that's, you know, like, good with her money.

929
02:13:14,396 --> 02:13:14,956
Kayla: Right.

930
02:13:15,108 --> 02:13:25,636
Chris: But then on the other hand, on the income side, it's, well, how many women is she hurting by doing that? So it's so hard to end. I mean, the devices do the same thing. The devices give a lot to charity.

931
02:13:25,708 --> 02:13:29,868
Kayla: Well, so they're also now in our government, so.

932
02:13:29,924 --> 02:13:33,332
Chris: Yeah, that's. Again, trust me, that will be an episode.

933
02:13:33,356 --> 02:13:34,200
Kayla: Oh, God.

934
02:13:36,100 --> 02:14:01,780
Chris: What do you think about Mary Kay's product itself? Like, that, about their actual beauty products? Because, you know, we talked about, like, the product being sort of more of a token. And it's less about that than it is about just recruiting more people to buy it and stuff it in their garage. So that's why to me, it seems like important to kind of suss out, like, is it a quality product? Do people want it? Is it not like, is that any part of the compelling bit of it at all?

935
02:14:02,760 --> 02:14:40,710
Tracy Coenen: The Mary Kate product is okay. It is on par with what you can get at Walmart, Target, a drugstore. So it's a mediocre type of product. It works fine for some people, but it is priced at the level of department store products, which are much higher quality. So basically, the Mary Kay product is overpriced for what it is. Does it work very well for some people? Of course, everyone's going to find some sort of product out there that works better for them than something else. But as a general rule, the product is overpriced for what the quality is.

936
02:14:41,890 --> 02:14:43,470
Chris: Just say it again on the mic.

937
02:14:43,770 --> 02:14:50,762
Kayla: You can attest to this. I have been through the wringer when it comes to skincare in particular.

938
02:14:50,946 --> 02:14:52,650
Chris: Right. Because your face is all fucked up.

939
02:14:52,730 --> 02:15:05,584
Kayla: Yeah, I'm disgustingly disfigured and it's horrifying. And I've been. I have tried so many different products and I have experimented with so many different products and I have researched so many different products.

940
02:15:05,672 --> 02:15:07,140
Chris: Have you tried Mary Kay?

941
02:15:07,520 --> 02:15:12,888
Kayla: I have not tried Mary Kay for skincare, and I will not. But that's because I have a particular skin condition that.

942
02:15:12,944 --> 02:15:17,608
Chris: Oh, right. For you, it's less about the brand and whatever, and it's more about the, like, specific.

943
02:15:17,664 --> 02:15:58,282
Kayla: It can't have anything in it for me, it can't have anything in it. I'm a sad sack. But before my skin flipped out. Yeah. As a teenager, in particular, I used Mary Kay products. And I can't really speak necessarily to the quality of Mary Kay products outside of, like, I enjoyed every product I had from them. But I just want to say that, like, in terms of things you can buy at the drugstore and or at Target or a department store are not necessarily worse or better than something you can get anywhere. There's quality products depending on what you need, there's quality products at every price point.

944
02:15:58,346 --> 02:16:41,830
Kayla: From my experience, like one of the, in my opinion and in a lot of dermatologist opinions, one of the best skin, like one of the best moisturizers for your face is something you go to the drugstore to get. Serazi, it's literally like, oh, yeah, it's the one that I use or, like, cetaphil is also, like, those are, quote unquote low quality or, like, drugstore brands, but they're really great. Like, so I just, I. And I think something that's also important to say, not to be, like. I'm not, like, trying to argue. I just. It made me think of it when you. You buy things for different reasons. You know what I mean?

945
02:16:41,870 --> 02:17:00,876
Kayla: Like, if you're at a party that your friend is having and you get a makeover and it's fun and you're, like, having a good time buying a lipstick in that environment, you're buying it for a different reason than going to the drugstore and trying to get, like, whatever's the cheapest. You know what I mean? Or whatever's, like, the quality matches the price.

946
02:17:00,987 --> 02:17:01,404
Chris: Right.

947
02:17:01,492 --> 02:17:05,580
Kayla: You're. You are getting a different. You're purchasing a different value.

948
02:17:05,700 --> 02:17:53,816
Chris: So for. Yeah, I mean, I forget whether this is something I read in freakonomics or some Malcolm Gladwell claptrap, but there were. There was a study done or maybe multiple on people's purchasing, and then, like, the. Essentially the utility they got out of it, which was. I think they measured that biochemically. I think they, like, somehow, or maybe. Maybe it was a subjective survey, I'm not sure. But either way, they had some measure of, like, the value that the person felt like they got out of it. Basically. They would try different products that were actually the same inside the. The packaging, right. But the packaging was different, and the packaging influenced how much subjective value the person felt like they got out of the same exact thing.

949
02:17:53,968 --> 02:18:05,928
Chris: So, like, the better looking, the prettier, the more, like, you know, rustic or whoever know, you know, whatever it is the package looked, the more they enjoyed, you know, eating the olive oil or mustard or whatever the fuck it was.

950
02:18:05,984 --> 02:18:29,454
Kayla: And it's hard to say, like, whether or not that's, like, bad or good. You know what I mean? It's hard. You can go like, oh, it's all a scam. Like, everything is just a scam. Like, packaging is a scam. You're getting the same thing, blah, blah. And also you can go, the experience you have, even if it doesn't match the quote unquote quality of the product, like, the experience that you have is still the experience that you have.

951
02:18:29,541 --> 02:18:49,244
Chris: Right. No, I mean, I don't know if this necessarily applies back to mlms, but certainly, I mean, my opinion on the packaging thing is. Yeah, I mean, if somebody wants to buy the olive oil that looks like glass shaped like an olive tree, or whatever the hell, because it makes them enjoy the olive oil more then fine.

952
02:18:49,332 --> 02:19:32,813
Kayla: Right? That's actually something that does relate back to this for a long time. I was really into, in particular, this, like, beauty and skincare podcast growing up. I think that they actually just, like, went on hiatus. Definitely. Check them out. Esther and Caroline glowing up podcast when they would, like, talk about makeup and skincare products and do unboxings or talk about their hauls or whatever. One of the things they would talk about in addition to quality of the product, if they like the color, if they like the feel, whatever was the packaging. And that's especially for people in my age bracket and younger. Packaging is really important. And like makeup companies are.

953
02:19:32,861 --> 02:19:34,117
Chris: It's not just your age bracket.

954
02:19:34,173 --> 02:19:53,829
Kayla: Cooler things with packaging than they've done in the past. Like, that's honestly a big part of, like, the whole Kardashian beauty empire. Like, they focus a lot. Sometimes they steal their packaging ideas from other people, and it sucks. But that's just indicative of, like, packaging is not unimportant.

955
02:19:53,909 --> 02:20:04,706
Chris: No, no. I mean, think about, what's the chef competition show? Think about chopped. One of the main, what is it, two or three or four criteria is plating. It's presentation.

956
02:20:04,818 --> 02:20:05,066
Nancy: Right.

957
02:20:05,098 --> 02:20:30,940
Chris: And I mean, that's something that's an important part of the experience or any, you know, higher end or even, you know, semi higher end restaurant is the presentation of the food. And don't tell me it doesn't make you enjoy it more when it comes in, you know, weird, right? A weird circular thing or is, you know, presented in a way on the plate that makes it very appealing. I think we're really tangenting here, but I just.

958
02:20:30,980 --> 02:21:29,058
Kayla: I want to say, I do want to say one other thing. I don't want to necessarily defend MLM companies in this regard, even. Even Mary Kay, because if you are advertising your product as better than something you can get at the drugstore, like the product itself, not the experience, just the product itself, if you are advertising that it is like a luxury product or is, quote unquote better than something you can get at the drugstore, that's not necessarily great, right. But also, MLM companies aren't the only companies that do that, and especially in beauty like that is. That's a really big issue because regulation is very complicated or non existent. And there's also not necessarily a lot of, like, studies done about the products that go into making these products or the ingredients. And there's not a lot of, like, dead monkeys.

959
02:21:29,194 --> 02:21:41,202
Kayla: It's all dead monkeys. But just you can say, you know, you can say on a bottle of lotion like this has rose petals so it'll make your skin softer. Do we know if that's true? Not really. So you can kind of say whatever you want.

960
02:21:41,306 --> 02:21:43,206
Chris: Also cure your gouthen.

961
02:21:43,308 --> 02:21:49,470
Kayla: Definitely cure your gout. Yeah, put the rose petal lotion on the skin. Your gout again, right?

962
02:21:50,170 --> 02:21:50,666
Chris: Yeah.

963
02:21:50,738 --> 02:21:51,354
Kayla: Are you done?

964
02:21:51,442 --> 02:22:31,698
Chris: Thanks, Buffalo Bill. As you say that the other thing I can kind of picture is developing sort of a motivated reasoning, which is a thing that we talk about a lot on the podcast for these, for the leadership to say like, okay, if we change our business model, if we continue to evolve in this direction, then we'll make more money, it'll healthy for the bottom line. So now I have this motivated reasoning to want to believe myself as, you know, as a Mary Kay or as an executive that this is not a bad thing, that this is not a scam, that this is a legitimate thing.

965
02:22:31,754 --> 02:22:54,820
Chris: So I guess my question from all of this is, do you think that a lot of these top of the pyramid people, do you think that they themselves kind of believe their own, you know what I mean? Like, do you think that they believe that their business is legitimate or do you think that they know that it's not? Somewhere deep down?

966
02:22:55,560 --> 02:23:47,106
Tracy Coenen: So if we talk about the sales directors and the national sales directors in Mary Kay, we're talking about around 9000 people in the US and only about 1000 of those really see significant success with this. And when I say significant success, I'm talking about someone who is grossing $40,000 a year or more and actually making a living doing this. And I think many of those believe the hype and they really truly believe that they are offering a legitimate business opportunity. And the rest of them understand the truth and understand that, you know, they're going to be responsible for downlines of thousands of people are going to be recruited into this company and almost none of them are actually going to turn a profit.

967
02:23:47,218 --> 02:24:03,330
Tracy Coenen: And these people at the top of the pyramid absolutely know this, but they continue the con because they are able to say, if I could do it, you can do it too. So in their minds, if even one person can do it, then it means it's possible for anyone.

968
02:24:04,790 --> 02:24:57,958
Chris: That's interesting. It's like they're taking that one anecdote and then that somehow weighs against the 99% of people that don't. That's crazy. So I think I might have mentioned this to you before, but one of the main reasons I wanted to reach out to you, other than the fact that you are one of the biggest experts out there on this, is that I had an additional interview. My other interviewee essentially had a pretty positive experience with Mary Kay. And, you know, after I interviewed her, I was pretty puzzled because all of my research suggested basically all of. Pretty much all of the stuff that you've already said in my research is stuff that I've seen, and I understand the math and all that. So I was just very confused as to why that she might have had this positive experience.

969
02:24:58,054 --> 02:25:23,620
Chris: And I have a few different hypotheses for it. I just, for full disclosure, so you have all the context. She sold Mary Kay from 1981 to 86, maybe 85, but it was a roughly four or five year period in the beginning of the eighties, and she ended up going up to, I think, a director level. She ended up doing the thing where they have a conference, I believe it was in Dallas, right?

970
02:25:23,700 --> 02:25:24,900
Tracy Coenen: Seminar, yes.

971
02:25:25,060 --> 02:25:45,390
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And she did the whole schtick where you meet Mary Kay and you take a picture in her bathtub and that thing, like, what are, like, I know we can't possibly sit here and identify the exact reason for this discrepancy. Like, you know, this, you know, cognitive dissonance that I'm having here, but what are some possibilities, do you think?

972
02:25:46,970 --> 02:26:12,466
Tracy Coenen: Here's what I've seen over and over. I've seen women say they had a very positive experience in Mary Kay. And if you were to look at their tax returns, you would see that they made very little money or lost money, but they will still talk about their Mary Kay experience in positive terms, and they'll say, I learned so much. I made wonderful friendships.

973
02:26:12,618 --> 02:26:12,906
Nancy: Yeah.

974
02:26:12,938 --> 02:26:55,962
Tracy Coenen: I didn't make a lot of money, but I made something. And, you know, really, it was my own fault. If I had worked harder, I could have made much more money. But at that time in my life, it's what I chose to do. There are a lot of rationalizations that I see, and so even when they are not successful from a business perspective, and that's, as we said, almost everyone, they still come back and say it was a positive experience, and they will focus on these certain positive things. And that is all, to me, part of this very sophisticated con that is run in MLM. And there are talking points that we hear over and over and things that they want you to focus on. And so when you fail, it's completely your fault, and it was your choice.

975
02:26:56,106 --> 02:27:02,210
Tracy Coenen: And also, if you failed, don't focus on that. Focus on all the positive things and tell people about that.

976
02:27:02,370 --> 02:27:15,250
Chris: Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. And I've seen that. That's one of the, again, doing the research, the emphasis on if you fail, it's your fault is. Yeah. So it's so like the word you use before. Gross.

977
02:27:15,290 --> 02:27:15,650
Kayla: Gross.

978
02:27:15,730 --> 02:27:16,390
Tracy Coenen: Yeah.

979
02:27:17,650 --> 02:27:18,042
Chris: Okay.

980
02:27:18,066 --> 02:27:19,950
Tracy Coenen: So eighties word to use.

981
02:27:21,680 --> 02:28:06,590
Chris: So the last few questions kind of to wrap up here. So of course, our podcast is called cult or just weird. So what we do is we typically, and we typically have a whole list of criteria that we go through to make that call. All very scientific, of course, you know, but I'll spare you that process and just I'll just kind of ask you just instead, I've seen so I've seen multiple places saying that Mary Kay is cult like, kind of using the c word, including some folks that post on your own site. So why do you think that word is thrown around? Like, we've talked about them being scammy and not gross, but why do you think the C word is thrown around? What aspects of the company make people draw that comparison?

982
02:28:07,410 --> 02:28:07,794
Nancy: Sure.

983
02:28:07,842 --> 02:28:57,194
Tracy Coenen: One of the categories of articles on our website is cults, and Mary Kay is very cult like. If you were to go, you know, to an objective site and look for characteristics of cults, I think you would find in the top ten characteristics. I bet Mary Kay fulfills at least eight or nine of those. You know, there is, and it sounds really extreme, right? So people laugh when you call it a cult and say, oh, you're being too dramatic about this. But when you think about the mind control that is used in cults, they're very much those characteristics in Mary Kay. There's very much emphasis on the things you are allowed to think and the things that you should say and do and really trying to control the behavior of the sales force.

984
02:28:57,242 --> 02:29:44,310
Tracy Coenen: And so, you know, someone recruits you and is immediately trying to change your way of thinking and make you go along with the party line and things like that. And so there's a lot of manipulation of relationships as well and kind of wanting you a little bit isolated from your family and friends. Don't tell your husband these sorts of things because he's going to have this reaction and we don't want that poisoning your mind and things like that. So it's those kinds of things that, as dramatic as they sound, if you really get to know this company and you read the scripts that are used over and learn some of the techniques that they use, it really is akin to how cults draw in people and keep them a part of the cult.

985
02:29:44,940 --> 02:29:51,308
Chris: That's really interesting. So it's. And it kind of ties it all back to that fundamental bit that you mentioned before, which is the recruiting.

986
02:29:51,364 --> 02:29:51,556
Nancy: Right.

987
02:29:51,588 --> 02:29:56,644
Chris: That sort of central piece that sort of defines what an MLM is.

988
02:29:56,772 --> 02:29:57,500
Tracy Coenen: Yep.

989
02:29:57,660 --> 02:30:06,280
Chris: All right, so then I got to ask, because it's sort of our thing. In your opinion and your expert opinion, is Mary Kay a cult or just weird?

990
02:30:07,380 --> 02:30:08,200
Tracy Coenen: Yes.

991
02:30:08,660 --> 02:30:13,280
Chris: You're saying, yes, it's. Yes, it's a cult. Final. Final answer.

992
02:30:14,140 --> 02:30:17,172
Tracy Coenen: I'm going to say Mary Kay is cult like.

993
02:30:17,316 --> 02:30:29,908
Chris: Okay, that's a very fair answer, and I think I agree with you based on what I've seen and heard. So that actually wraps up my questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to add or that you'd like to tell our listeners?

994
02:30:30,044 --> 02:30:35,600
Tracy Coenen: That's an excellent question. I'm sure once we're done, I'll have something brilliant that I want everyone to know.

995
02:30:36,260 --> 02:30:40,542
Chris: Well, you can always email me back and if there's anything that you want to add to.

996
02:30:40,716 --> 02:31:33,306
Tracy Coenen: You know, it's just. It's interesting to me the amount of denial that goes on in order for people to continue to participate in multilevel marketing in general and Mary Kay specifically. You know, I have, you know, hundreds of articles on pink truth that break down the numbers and how little money people are actually making. Even these people who are at the top of the pyramid and are this tiny fraction of 1% of the entire sales force in the US. And there's this massive amount of objective data about who's making money and who's not. And the data proves that almost no one is making money. And yet they are still able to recruit women by the thousands every month. It's astonishing to me.

997
02:31:33,498 --> 02:31:39,962
Chris: Yeah. And I think that. That you can't even do that without having that sort of. That denial piece. Right.

998
02:31:40,146 --> 02:32:18,674
Tracy Coenen: When I was recruited back in 1998, there was no information out there on the Internet about multilevel marketing and the truth behind it. And so what I was presented with at the time was material that came from my sales director and my recruiter. And they had sheets for me that showed, you know, had these earnings claims, how much people were making and. And how easy it would be for you to hold this many classes a week. And you're going to sell this much at each class and you're going to make, therefore, this much money. And so you need this much inventory. And Mary Kay was pitched as this christian company. And so, of course, I thought that these women would never lie to me.

999
02:32:18,762 --> 02:32:54,926
Tracy Coenen: And that when they said, this is what people are making and this is, you know, you can have this many classes a week, of course, this was the truth that they were telling me. Right. And then I got in and found out that no matter how hard I worked, I was never able to achieve those numbers that they had set forth for me. And I had worked really hard. And I was out there pounding the pavement looking for people to have skincare classes with, etcetera. And amongst the people that, you know, amongst the large group of people in my area, I was one of the most successful. And yet I was struggling, and I wasn't able to hold as many classes a week as I wanted to.

1000
02:32:55,118 --> 02:33:29,714
Tracy Coenen: And so there was no information out there at the time from an objective source that was going to tell me what's the real deal with this company. And so that's why I felt that developing a website and putting this information out there and focusing on the education was going to be really important. And so I get criticized and still get criticized today from people who say, you're trying to take down Mary Kay. And that was never the point of this site. Sure, if Mary Kay fails, the world's going to better off, no doubt. But that was never the focus of the site. The site's focus is education.

1001
02:33:29,842 --> 02:33:46,650
Tracy Coenen: Because I felt that if women were being recruited into Mary Kay and they were going to take the time to go do an Internet search for information about Mary Kay, they would find pink truth and they would be able to know the truth about the company before they signed their agreement.

1002
02:33:47,550 --> 02:34:08,032
Chris: Right. Yeah. And that's, I mean, from what I've seen, again, there's such a lack of information from the companies themselves, which, of course, is part of what they're able to recruit. Filling in those informational gaps is great. I wish that more. I mean, maybe I'll find that more mlms do that. But, I mean, the pitch is very compelling.

1003
02:34:08,096 --> 02:34:08,344
Nancy: Right?

1004
02:34:08,392 --> 02:34:44,726
Chris: Like, as you say, like, when they pitch you, it's, you know, it's not, it's not like they've perfected it. It's not some, like, sleazy, weird thing that you kind of go, like, what? I'm not going to know. They're, it's a very compelling, I mean, I almost sold cutco when I just out of college for the same sort of reason, because it was like, they just do such a good job of selling you that financial fantasy of like, oh, you're going to make so much money and you're going to be independent, and you're going to be. Own your own business. And it's like they really know the language to use. And at least in my own personal experience and from what I've seen from these recruiting videos, be your own boss.

1005
02:34:44,878 --> 02:35:40,174
Tracy Coenen: Unlimited earnings. On top of those earnings, you can get wonderful prizes. It's all very carefully crafted. You know, Mary Kay has had, what is it now, more than 55 years in business, where they have perfected the scripts and how they sell it. And it's largely the same formula for selling the recruiting opportunity as they always have had. And way back when, Mary Kay herself was a master of figuring out how to motivate the sales force with prizes. And the concept was Mary Kay spends as little as possible on a prize to get the maximum amount of orders out of consultants. And they still have. They still use this formula today, and I have seen it perfected on the part of Mary Kaye.

1006
02:35:40,212 --> 02:35:40,522
Nancy: Wow.

1007
02:35:40,586 --> 02:35:51,550
Chris: Yeah, that's. I know about the. It's a Cadillac. Is a pink cadillac. Is that. Or is it a pink. Yes, it's a Cadillac. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, I really appreciate your time, by the way.

1008
02:35:51,850 --> 02:35:52,506
Tracy Coenen: No problem.

1009
02:35:52,578 --> 02:36:22,566
Chris: Thank you so much. And, you know, thank you for. For what you're doing, too. You know, from, like you said, like, the. It gets over. Even doing the research got a little, like, mentally taxing, you know, just like all. There's so many out there, and it's like. It's growing, and it's just like, it was kind of hard research to do a little bit at times. So I really appreciate that you're sort of out frontlining it. Okay. All right. Thanks, Tracy. I really appreciate it.

1010
02:36:22,718 --> 02:36:23,126
Kayla: Okay.

1011
02:36:23,158 --> 02:36:24,050
Tracy Coenen: Have a good one.

1012
02:36:25,430 --> 02:37:06,880
Chris: So, in talking to Tracy, I feel like I definitely got some more context for where Mary Kayden fits into the overall MLM industry, but I'm not sure how much closer I got to solving the why did Nancy have a positive experience conundrum? I think we got a little bit of information on that when were talking about the evolution of the company, which, as we said, we'll get to that. But at this point, I think I should just go ahead and tell you what my theories are so I can get your thoughts on them. So, are you ready? Because this sort of ties it all together in one nice, neat little conspiracy narrative.

1013
02:37:06,960 --> 02:37:09,336
Kayla: I need that. Please feed that to me.

1014
02:37:09,408 --> 02:37:19,792
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we're all about conspiracy theories here on the show where we talk about being skeptical all the time. Okay. So my theory has three components.

1015
02:37:19,856 --> 02:37:20,580
Kayla: Okay.

1016
02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:31,502
Chris: The statistical component, the intangibles component of, and to me, the most maybe interesting of all, the time component.

1017
02:37:31,566 --> 02:37:31,782
Nancy: Ooh.

1018
02:37:31,806 --> 02:37:37,310
Chris: We should call it the temporal component first. The statistical components.

1019
02:37:37,350 --> 02:37:38,126
Kayla: Why are you laughing?

1020
02:37:38,238 --> 02:38:08,892
Chris: I don't know. Because I make myself laugh. That's what I do, and nobody else will. So in any given low probability situation such as mlms, you are still going to have some cases of success. And I think that there's a pretty good chance that something resembling that is what happened with Miss Carlson. My mother is fucking awesome. Sort of a force of nature, as you know. And I'm pretty sure that, like, as long as. As long as the thing is, like, team and leadership driven, she could probably turn a profit on a business selling stale turds.

1021
02:38:08,996 --> 02:38:09,452
Kayla: Right?

1022
02:38:09,556 --> 02:38:18,016
Chris: So, you know, her energy and force of leadership and personality were probably all a very good fit for selling things. The quote to the Mary Kay way.

1023
02:38:18,148 --> 02:38:18,752
Kayla: Right.

1024
02:38:18,896 --> 02:38:25,800
Chris: And I think there's a good chance that she's one of those rare success stories that, you know, they would, like, trot out on stage at rally. Well, which they did trot out on stage.

1025
02:38:25,880 --> 02:38:26,500
Kayla: Right.

1026
02:38:27,200 --> 02:38:36,900
Chris: So that's the statistical component. I think that it's, you know, very possible that. That she was able to beat the odds based on, you know, sort of her demeter, let's.

1027
02:38:37,280 --> 02:38:38,680
Kayla: Demeanor. Not demeter.

1028
02:38:38,760 --> 02:38:40,380
Chris: I meant to say demeanor. Just.

1029
02:38:40,920 --> 02:38:42,940
Kayla: You're just talking about the demeanor.

1030
02:38:43,730 --> 02:38:44,670
Chris: Demeanor.

1031
02:38:45,050 --> 02:38:48,682
Kayla: Let's take your mom to Vegas, is what I'm hearing.

1032
02:38:48,866 --> 02:38:50,786
Chris: Yeah. I mean, if she can, you know.

1033
02:38:50,898 --> 02:38:52,938
Kayla: Does your mom play the lottery?

1034
02:38:53,114 --> 02:38:55,442
Chris: When it's. When it's huge. Yeah.

1035
02:38:55,506 --> 02:38:55,898
Kayla: Okay.

1036
02:38:55,954 --> 02:38:58,378
Chris: When it's like, you know, 100 and some odd. Whatever.

1037
02:38:58,554 --> 02:38:59,234
Kayla: Got it.

1038
02:38:59,322 --> 02:39:41,624
Chris: So, that's the first component of my theory. My second component is one we've been talking about sort of over and over, particularly on this episode, a little bit on the previous one. There are reasons other than pure income that people work. Some mlms do provide this value. Now, it can definitely be predatory because. Or I don't even want to say can. It often is predatory because mlms provide this value to populations that lack it, such as, you know, women that lack the opportunity to participate in the traditional workforce or, you know, low income people who lack opportunity, or, you know, ex felons that lack opportunity. And they do that for a tidy penny, but there is some value there. And, you know, we just heard from.

1039
02:39:41,672 --> 02:39:50,696
Chris: From Tracy, you know, talking about how some women will say, well, you know, I didn't make that much money, but it doesn't matter because I got all these other values from it.

1040
02:39:50,728 --> 02:39:51,064
Kayla: Right.

1041
02:39:51,152 --> 02:40:15,160
Chris: And I think that it's, there's this, like, weird gray area there where it's like, even though you're, even though from the MLM's perspective, it's kind of like a, you know, a. A one way relationship. It's maybe also not the other way. It's almost like, I don't know. If you get conned by someone that's really good at it and beautiful, you're like, I don't even mind.

1042
02:40:15,860 --> 02:40:18,340
Kayla: I don't think that's a real thing that happens, isn't it?

1043
02:40:18,380 --> 02:40:18,940
Chris: I don't know.

1044
02:40:19,020 --> 02:40:19,676
Kayla: Don't think so.

1045
02:40:19,708 --> 02:40:27,292
Chris: It's like, if you get assassinated by just the hottest dude or hottest chick, then it's okay.

1046
02:40:27,356 --> 02:40:29,024
Kayla: I don't think that's a thing either.

1047
02:40:29,172 --> 02:40:29,672
Chris: No?

1048
02:40:29,776 --> 02:40:33,712
Kayla: No. I think you'd still be pretty pissed, frankly.

1049
02:40:33,816 --> 02:40:40,376
Chris: I don't know. Like, what if it's, like one of those, like, sex assassinations? We should probably cut this part. Sex nations sexassinations.

1050
02:40:40,528 --> 02:41:19,058
Kayla: I forgot what I was gonna say now, but. Oh, I guess I. I guess I just wanted to say that, like, I think it really comes down to, on an individual level, why are you getting involved? Are you getting involved because of all of the, like, predatory things? Like, did all of the predatory mechanisms work on you? And I think the number one thing it comes down to is, are you doing this because you think you can make unlimited income, make your own hours, you can support your family on this? If you are getting taken in by that, if that's your motivation, well, that's.

1051
02:41:19,074 --> 02:41:19,954
Chris: Where it feels dirty.

1052
02:41:20,082 --> 02:41:20,674
Kayla: Wrong. Yeah.

1053
02:41:20,722 --> 02:41:47,196
Chris: Yeah. That's where it feels dirty. Because it's like, if the company was saying, like, hey, you're not going to make money doing this. It's probably not going to happen. But you're going to meet some women, you're going to network, you're going to learn how to sell, and that's why you're doing it, then it would feel better. But instead, oftentimes they're using this language of, be your own boss, make a ton of money. So that's the part where it starts to feel dirty. Right. Because it's not up front.

1054
02:41:47,348 --> 02:42:05,582
Kayla: I just, I want to, I don't know why I feel, like, impassioned about this, but I just, I do. I believe that mlms are predatory. After we've talked about this, I believe that generally they should be steered away from.

1055
02:42:05,686 --> 02:42:07,822
Chris: Mm. Yes, absolutely.

1056
02:42:07,966 --> 02:42:10,010
Kayla: I think that they have way too much power.

1057
02:42:10,550 --> 02:42:11,166
Chris: Yes.

1058
02:42:11,278 --> 02:42:41,190
Kayla: And I also think that the intangibles, that somebody could get in like, if you get involved for the intangibles, not for the money, then your experience was valid and valuable, right? Like, you. It's. I don't think it necessarily is. Like, yeah, you were taken in and you kind of got these, like, consolation prizes. If you went into this going. Like, my. My motivations are getting out of the house, talking to other people, getting to exercise as part of my personality, doing.

1059
02:42:41,230 --> 02:42:42,582
Chris: Makeovers for women and making them feel.

1060
02:42:42,606 --> 02:42:57,286
Kayla: Beautiful, making people feel beautiful, getting to get experience that I wouldn't be getting otherwise because I'm not in a workforce, a traditional workforce, in that way. If those are your motivations and, like, money is six or doesn't even come into it's almost a different thing, right?

1061
02:42:57,318 --> 02:43:25,690
Chris: It totally is. And it seems like that is definitely the case with my mom. I think that, you know, because my dad was working at the time right there, you know, it's not like they were hard up for income for her. The intangibles were the thing. Those were the reasons that she did it. It's not like, you know, they didn't. They didn't need extra money. Right. But if you're, like you said, if you are, that's the group you're in where you are desperate and, you know, your next felon. And the only thing we can do is sell essential oils, then that's a different case.

1062
02:43:25,770 --> 02:44:15,754
Kayla: Right? It's kind of like. It's kind of like what we talked about with teal, how teal, I think, from our perspective, and I guess we kind of go back and forth with teal because it's like, is teal inherently bad and evil? And some people have a good experience, or is teal. Some people have a bad experience, but most people have a good experience. You know what I mean? But I think it's kind of similar to that where like. Like something you and I said on the Teal swan episode was that, like, even if her work is helping everyone, helping 99% of people, and 1% of people are committing suicide first, do no harm, still want to avoid that. So even if MLMs were, like, helping out everyone, but still had that predatory element for, like, 1% of people, obviously it's the opposite way.

1063
02:44:15,842 --> 02:44:17,490
Kayla: That would still be bad.

1064
02:44:17,610 --> 02:44:18,178
Chris: Right.

1065
02:44:18,314 --> 02:44:22,338
Kayla: And they are flipped where it's 99% of people are having the bad.

1066
02:44:22,394 --> 02:44:44,202
Chris: There's another thing, too, that I think, I don't know if I want to talk about it now on the show, because I don't want to go too far down this, but let's just do it we can cut it later. But we, you know, we talked about this. We have in the past, even before we had this show, we have talked about people like Yuri Geller or how.

1067
02:44:44,226 --> 02:44:45,730
Kayla: Are you gonna fit this in?

1068
02:44:45,810 --> 02:44:52,442
Chris: People like forever or people like who's the, who, the pastor, healers that, whatever the, who is that?

1069
02:44:52,466 --> 02:44:53,408
Kayla: I don't know any of the names.

1070
02:44:53,514 --> 02:44:57,340
Chris: I don't know. But basically people that are, you know, frauds and quacks.

1071
02:44:57,380 --> 02:45:00,004
Kayla: People who are frauds. Sylvia Brown.

1072
02:45:00,052 --> 02:45:00,860
Chris: Sylvia Brown, right.

1073
02:45:00,900 --> 02:45:03,836
Kayla: Fake psychics. Fake. Who are faith healers.

1074
02:45:03,908 --> 02:45:19,536
Chris: And you say, and it's, you know, the argument always seems to be, well, you know, what's the harm, right. And especially for, you know, for somebody that's like only doing harm, that's easy. But for somebody that is, you know, fancies themselves a healer.

1075
02:45:19,628 --> 02:45:20,312
Kayla: Right.

1076
02:45:20,496 --> 02:45:45,994
Chris: Or somebody that helps people, it's much harder because now you're saying, well, they're helping people, but then they're also harming people. So what does that equation look like? And I've seen a lot of skeptics also get into, it feels like a lot of the time that is, that's the defense. The defense of the skeptic is to say this is the harm. Right. So that they're just trying to point out, like, okay, these are the immediate impacts of this falsehood that this is going to cause harm in this way.

1077
02:45:46,082 --> 02:45:46,690
Kayla: Right.

1078
02:45:46,850 --> 02:46:17,156
Chris: And I think based on doing a lot of the stuff on this show, that it, that's the wrong way to defend against things that are false. And a lot of this comes hopefully everybody's seen Chernobyl on HBO. It's excellent. You know, you have to gear up for it being terrible. But the thing that they say at the end of the show is it's a little cheeseball, but I actually really like it. Every lie you tell incurs a debt to the truth.

1079
02:46:17,268 --> 02:46:19,260
Kayla: I don't think that's cheeseball at all, honestly.

1080
02:46:19,380 --> 02:47:09,988
Chris: And I think that it's easy to say, oh, well, what's the harm? But when you do that enough, eventually you will have to pay that back. And you don't know how you're going to have to pay that back. You don't know who's going to pay that back. You don't know the eventual harm. And in the case of something like Chernobyl, eventually the lies that were told, if you watch the show, eventually all of the lies or live through it, eventually those lies caught up and resulted in the explosion of a nuclear reactor and harmed and killed many people. So. So, to me, the stronger defense of something as a skeptic or the stronger offense against the falsehoods that surround us is not what harm are they doing, but the very fact that they are false.

1081
02:47:10,044 --> 02:47:14,156
Chris: And every single one incurs a debt to the truth that eventually must be paid.

1082
02:47:14,228 --> 02:47:17,280
Kayla: Right. Damn.

1083
02:47:18,460 --> 02:47:19,476
Chris: Mic drop.

1084
02:47:19,628 --> 02:47:21,160
Kayla: Don't hit the mic.

1085
02:47:21,580 --> 02:47:27,680
Chris: Boom. I can be reached for commencement addresses at nine. Oh, sorry.

1086
02:47:28,070 --> 02:47:31,214
Kayla: Oh, you were gonna give our address out, not your phone number.

1087
02:47:31,302 --> 02:47:50,622
Chris: I'm old. Yeah, or my email address, like normal culture, is weirdmail.com. There is a third component, which is the time component or the temporal component, as I called it. So this, to me, is actually one of the more interesting ones.

1088
02:47:50,686 --> 02:47:51,450
Kayla: All right.

1089
02:47:52,710 --> 02:48:04,616
Chris: Tracy got involved with Mary Kay in the late nineties, early two thousands, and started pink truth even later than that. Nancy was involved in the early eighties and met Mary Kay herself while she was still alive.

1090
02:48:04,728 --> 02:48:05,360
Kayla: Right.

1091
02:48:05,520 --> 02:48:38,212
Chris: That's a lot of time in between. I do believe that the company has evolved since then. And you'll recall that Tracy even gave us a really good breakdown of how companies exploring an MLM sales model can be drawn to it more over time. It's also possible that the retirement and later death of Mary Kay Ash had some effect, but the company is currently run by her son, who helped co found it, so maybe not that much effect. There's also the fact that in 1985, Mary Kay went back private from public.

1092
02:48:38,316 --> 02:48:41,956
Kayla: Right? 1985, yeah. Okay.

1093
02:48:42,108 --> 02:48:43,108
Chris: Right around the time.

1094
02:48:43,164 --> 02:48:49,334
Kayla: Wait, say that. Say that again. So it went back in 1985. It went back from public company to private.

1095
02:48:49,422 --> 02:49:05,182
Chris: Yeah. So it was a public company from, like, 1960, I want to say eight, until 1985. So it was traded on the stock market, and then for some reason, in 1985, they went back private. And if you'll recall from the previous episode, most mlms are, in fact, private.

1096
02:49:05,286 --> 02:49:05,790
Kayla: Right.

1097
02:49:05,910 --> 02:49:09,090
Chris: And the reason for that is that they don't have to share as much information.

1098
02:49:09,790 --> 02:49:16,054
Kayla: Isn't so 1985 right around when your mom stopped?

1099
02:49:16,102 --> 02:49:38,670
Chris: When Nancy left? Yes, exactly. So you'll also remember that there's something that we've been hinting at sort of throughout last episode and this episode, and we keep saying we'll get to it, and it's something really big that might actually be hugely influential on why Mary Kay might be a different company now than it was then.

1100
02:49:39,130 --> 02:49:39,922
Kayla: Tell me.

1101
02:49:40,026 --> 02:49:52,080
Chris: And that, my friends, is the decision in the case of FTC versus Amway Corp. Or INRI, Amway Corp. Or in the matter of Amway corporation.

1102
02:49:52,420 --> 02:49:53,560
Kayla: Okay.

1103
02:49:54,340 --> 02:50:28,140
Chris: This was a case brought against Amway by the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, after having successfully prosecuted mlms as triangular shaped and fraudulent for the ten or so years leading up to this case. So the FTC was doing pretty good against, not just, like mom and pop, definitely a fraud, fly by night airplane games, scams, but actual, what we might call today, mlms. They talk about this. They have a whole episode about this in the dream. It's fascinating.

1104
02:50:28,180 --> 02:50:29,720
Kayla: God, I can't wait. Let's listen to that.

1105
02:50:30,860 --> 02:50:43,362
Chris: So, yeah, so this case began. They talk about this case, too. This case began in 1975 and ended in 1979 after four years of being tried. So that's, you know, 1979 -75 is four years.

1106
02:50:43,506 --> 02:50:44,418
Kayla: Thank you for the math.

1107
02:50:44,474 --> 02:51:02,320
Chris: Yeah, I'm good at math. I do math good. There were a bunch of complaints levied against Amway by the FTC, and some of them stuck, such as the charges that they were price fixing their products and a few other charges. And so the price fixing is basically saying to their distributors, you have to sell the price, the products by this much.

1108
02:51:02,400 --> 02:51:02,760
Kayla: Okay?

1109
02:51:02,800 --> 02:51:30,162
Chris: Which now, like, how can you do that? And then also have them be independent distributors? So that was a charge that did stick, and a few other charges stuck, too. But the primary thing that they were trying to do, which was basically say, hey, your pyramid scheme, it was absolved of that. And in fact, what this case did was establish the boxes that you needed to check to mark yourself safe in the eyes of the FTC.

1110
02:51:30,266 --> 02:51:30,898
Kayla: Fuck.

1111
02:51:31,034 --> 02:52:10,708
Chris: Essentially, it was a blueprint for immunizing your triangle against prosecution. So, safe to say that this decision was nothing less than seismic in the MLM industry landscape, and it opened the floodgates. But don't take my word for it, though. How about this quote from mlmlegal.com, comma, which I shit you nothing, is a website dedicated to helping mlms get going and protect themselves from prosecution and all kinds of everything. You need one stop shop to get your MLM going. It's a gross place, but, listen to what they have to say on their site about the Amway case. The industry owes Amway.

1112
02:52:10,844 --> 02:52:11,756
Kayla: Oh, my God.

1113
02:52:11,908 --> 02:53:14,800
Chris: No legal ruling has had more impact on the direct sales industry than the landmark FTC versus Amway decision. In 1975, FTC accused Amway of operating as an illegal pyramid. After four years of litigation in 1979, Amway prevailed. An administrative law judge ruled that Amway's multilevel marketing program was a legitimate business opportunity as opposed to a pyramid scheme. Had Amway lost MLM history after 1979 may have been non existent. Amways Victory paved the way for hundreds of MLM companies that would follow. So significant was the decision that the FTC during the next 20 years focused on deceptive practices of MLM companies, such as earnings representations or medical claims. Rather than attacking the structure of MLM programs, the industry owes Amway a debt of gratitude. End quote.

1114
02:53:15,780 --> 02:53:17,120
Kayla: That's bad.

1115
02:53:17,460 --> 02:53:27,364
Chris: That is from mLmlegal.com, which, I will remind you are about pro MLM as you can get. So that's from the horse's mouth.

1116
02:53:27,532 --> 02:53:28,396
Kayla: Horthoth Mouse.

1117
02:53:28,428 --> 02:53:29,836
Chris: The horth of moutheth.

1118
02:53:29,988 --> 02:53:32,692
Kayla: That's scurry.

1119
02:53:32,876 --> 02:54:22,360
Chris: In 2013, Forbes wrote about the Amway case as context in an article about another MLM, which we will definitely talk about on the show, and we've already mentioned several times. But yeah, you know that communist propaganda rag, Forbes, you know, the revolutionary ones, like, the ones that are going to be like, rah, down with capitalism, you know, Forbes. So they wrote about it, too. Here are a few choice excerpts that I think illustrate what we're talking about here from that article. While the eventual ruling in the 1979 Amway case didn't make Amway look very good, it also shielded other mlms from prosecution. And later in the article, in 1979, the FTC didn't shut Amway down. Instead, it wagged a finger at the company and set three future guidelines for operating an MLM legally.

1120
02:54:23,020 --> 02:54:24,680
Kayla: Why did they do that?

1121
02:54:25,620 --> 02:54:41,440
Chris: So the dream makes the case that they did that because there were people from Amway in the highest levels that were influencing things.

1122
02:54:41,940 --> 02:54:54,188
Kayla: I don't think it should be difficult to deduce here that there was probably some pro MLM influence that had a hand in making this decision.

1123
02:54:54,244 --> 02:55:31,998
Chris: Oh, yes, like I said, we're getting conspiratorial here on the show. Anyway, finally, the article from Forbes. So it cites doctor William Keep, who is dean of the College of New Jersey's business school, which, you know, those business schools, again, they're like really socialist bastions. Quote, that opinion actually made things worse, keep wrote in an email. The result is that, quote, even relatively straightforward cases can drag on for years. And because of that, the FTC is overly cautious about filing charges against any MLM. That's not a blatant scam. The FTC tends to pick only very easy cases, keep says.

1124
02:55:32,174 --> 02:55:34,930
Kayla: But they're all blatant scams.

1125
02:55:35,230 --> 02:55:52,208
Chris: Well, that's the thing, is that the FTC only goes after the, like, the really SCSI blatant, scammy ones, and then the ones that are harder to identify that way and are like more like, no, no. We're not a triangle. We're an MLM. We're a direct sales.

1126
02:55:52,334 --> 02:55:55,724
Kayla: It all comes back to packaging. Packaging is important.

1127
02:55:55,812 --> 02:56:40,068
Chris: It does. It does. So the amway case is essentially what I am calling the time component in this whole theory of mine. I believe that Mary Kay became more mlme over time. Now, of course, you know, in the interview with Nancy, she talked about how there was recruiting at the time, and Tracy talked about how that's how Mary Kay started out, by being very savvy about incentivizing her salesforce and doing the in home parties and everything. But I do think it's also gotten more damaging to its distributor force over time, to the point where it would require this sort of informational website.

1128
02:56:40,204 --> 02:56:52,694
Kayla: Yeah. It's like if a company, if an MLM company is able to survive as long as Mary Kay, it's going to become this. Like there's no MLM. Like every MLM lives long enough to see itself become the villain.

1129
02:56:52,742 --> 02:56:56,694
Chris: Oh, boy. Yes. No, I mean, that's. That is. That's the thing.

1130
02:56:56,742 --> 02:56:56,902
Nancy: Right.

1131
02:56:56,926 --> 02:57:14,788
Chris: And, like, maybe. I don't know. Maybe back in the day, recruiting salespeople seemed like a good idea, and, you know, there's maybe some guidelines on. On whether you can saturate your market and, you know, don't recruit more than three levels because there won't be enough humans. I don't know.

1132
02:57:14,964 --> 02:57:35,594
Kayla: Well, it's like we talked about with the airplane game, like how there was almost like a spiritual element to it, like the secret or of like, new thought. Like, you weren't necessarily looking at it and going like, show me the numbers. You were going and looking at it as, like, I'm putting this thing out into the universe and it is going to return to me.

1133
02:57:35,652 --> 02:57:35,942
Chris: Right.

1134
02:57:36,006 --> 02:57:42,806
Kayla: And just instead of it being. Giving your friend a bunch of money and pretending they were an airplane captain, it was built into a business model.

1135
02:57:42,878 --> 02:58:17,652
Chris: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. So I think in the case of the conundrum of Miss Carlson, the Mary Kay sales director, I think it's those three components. I think one is just the statistical. Like some people actually do manage to make it work. I think some of it is just, you know, you're there for the intangibles. Nothing necessarily making a living. Right. And I think it's this time component that was basically, mlms were one thing before 1979, and as an industry, something totally different after 1979.

1136
02:58:17,676 --> 02:58:17,884
Nancy: Right.

1137
02:58:17,932 --> 02:58:19,880
Kayla: Right. Interesting.

1138
02:58:20,700 --> 02:58:38,230
Chris: So is it time after this long frickin marathon, this is gonna be a four hour episode. Holy crap. And we didn't do this last episode, so it feels like forever since I've. You're the only person able to do that. I guarantee you there's at least.

1139
02:58:38,270 --> 02:58:40,814
Kayla: One listener that got a bunch of reviews. They all said, don't do it.

1140
02:58:40,862 --> 02:58:45,814
Chris: I know that's not true because I look at our reviews. So anyway, here's your stupid paper.

1141
02:58:45,942 --> 02:58:47,214
Kayla: Oh, right. It's my decision.

1142
02:58:47,302 --> 02:58:48,662
Chris: It's your decision.

1143
02:58:48,806 --> 02:58:49,558
Kayla: All right.

1144
02:58:49,694 --> 02:59:00,278
Chris: Thou must decide. Although we've already had two people make a call. One person said no, Miss Carlson said no. And Tracy said cult like aspects.

1145
02:59:00,334 --> 02:59:04,822
Kayla: Well, let's go through our criteria one by one and decide where you and I stand.

1146
02:59:04,966 --> 02:59:05,770
Chris: Okay.

1147
02:59:06,310 --> 02:59:16,662
Kayla: Expected harm, number one towards individual, socially, physically, etcetera. I'm going to go ahead and say that expected harm is extremely high.

1148
02:59:16,806 --> 02:59:27,490
Chris: Yes. And I think that. So just. Just for context here, we're talking about Mary Kay in 2019. Not Mary Kay in 1980 or 1985 or 86.

1149
02:59:28,630 --> 02:59:33,454
Kayla: It's gonna be hard to judge. It's gonna be hard to do this for just Mary Kay.

1150
02:59:33,582 --> 02:59:35,170
Chris: I know, but we have to.

1151
02:59:36,430 --> 02:59:37,390
Kayla: Well, expected harm.

1152
02:59:37,430 --> 02:59:41,438
Chris: Cause we didn't do this the last episode, so if we wanted to do it, then we could have done it then.

1153
02:59:41,574 --> 02:59:43,126
Kayla: Expected harm. High.

1154
02:59:43,198 --> 02:59:44,806
Chris: So you're sticking with high?

1155
02:59:44,878 --> 02:59:45,306
Kayla: Yes.

1156
02:59:45,398 --> 02:59:51,618
Chris: Okay. Even though there's intangibles that can potentially, for the right person that is doing it eyes wide open and knows they.

1157
02:59:51,634 --> 02:59:55,170
Kayla: Won'T make money, I think that percentage is very low.

1158
02:59:55,250 --> 02:59:55,626
Chris: Yeah.

1159
02:59:55,698 --> 02:59:57,370
Kayla: I think it's way less than 50.

1160
02:59:57,490 --> 02:59:58,042
Chris: Yeah.

1161
02:59:58,146 --> 03:00:03,522
Kayla: And so I think that if you are gonna jump into Mary Kay, you should expect to be harmed.

1162
03:00:03,626 --> 03:00:09,910
Chris: Yeah. Just statistically presented, certainly financially and then potentially other ways as well.

1163
03:00:11,260 --> 03:00:17,732
Kayla: Population of cult or is it niche? We need to come up with a new criteria for this one.

1164
03:00:17,876 --> 03:00:18,564
Chris: Is it niche?

1165
03:00:18,612 --> 03:00:21,740
Kayla: Is this niche versus mainstream? Yeah, pretty mainstream.

1166
03:00:21,780 --> 03:00:23,060
Chris: This is mainstream af. Yeah.

1167
03:00:23,100 --> 03:00:24,828
Kayla: Yeah. We all have heard of Mary Kay.

1168
03:00:24,884 --> 03:00:30,724
Chris: She was named one of the top 25 business people of the last 25 years in 2004.

1169
03:00:30,772 --> 03:00:31,460
Kayla: Right. Like.

1170
03:00:31,540 --> 03:00:33,572
Chris: And not niche.

1171
03:00:33,636 --> 03:00:35,340
Kayla: We all know somebody who's in Mary Kay.

1172
03:00:35,420 --> 03:00:36,080
Chris: Yeah.

1173
03:00:36,790 --> 03:00:44,958
Kayla: All right. Antifactuality. Closed. Logical system. High. Very high.

1174
03:00:45,094 --> 03:00:45,494
Chris: Yeah.

1175
03:00:45,542 --> 03:00:54,910
Kayla: Just because there. I think it's even higher than the expected harm. Because, like, the recruitment techniques are anti factual.

1176
03:00:55,030 --> 03:00:55,790
Chris: Right. The recruitment.

1177
03:00:55,830 --> 03:01:11,678
Kayla: Be your own boss, make your own hours, unlimited earnings, easy. Just whatever. If you fail, it's your fault. You can do it. Just have energy. Like, all of that is. Is very anti factual. Percentage of life consumed. I don't know.

1178
03:01:11,774 --> 03:01:12,542
Chris: Variable.

1179
03:01:12,686 --> 03:01:18,894
Kayla: It seems extremely variable because there's certainly people who probably do it once and they're like, I've got a bunch of Mary Kay products, and they never do it again.

1180
03:01:19,022 --> 03:01:25,190
Chris: Right. But then there's some people that like. But then there's, like, their garages get taken over and they lose everything.

1181
03:01:25,270 --> 03:01:29,828
Kayla: Or people like your mom and Meg, who. It's like a second job.

1182
03:01:29,974 --> 03:01:30,496
Chris: Right.

1183
03:01:30,608 --> 03:01:32,660
Kayla: So I don't know how to answer that.

1184
03:01:33,400 --> 03:01:35,664
Chris: I'm gonna say some. Depends on the person.

1185
03:01:35,712 --> 03:01:37,072
Kayla: Some percentage of your life will be consumed.

1186
03:01:37,096 --> 03:01:40,120
Chris: Maybe say it can consume your life if you let.

1187
03:01:40,280 --> 03:01:59,922
Kayla: Especially, like, the way your mom talked about, like, weekly meetings. And then she also talked about, like, you had to always put your makeup on and look nice when you wanted to go out. You were always on. You had to always kind of be, like, looking for new people to sell to. That feels like a large percentage of your, if you have to put on a full face of Mary Kay makeup before you go to the grocery store.

1188
03:01:59,986 --> 03:02:00,330
Chris: Right.

1189
03:02:00,410 --> 03:02:15,762
Kayla: Like, that's a lot. And, like, granted, a lot of women do that anyway, but on all the time is. But if that's only relevant to 1% of the people doing it, then it's not. You don't jump into it expecting a huge percentage of your life to be consumed.

1190
03:02:15,866 --> 03:02:16,562
Chris: Right. Yeah.

1191
03:02:16,586 --> 03:02:18,258
Kayla: So I think you're right that it's variable.

1192
03:02:18,394 --> 03:02:19,150
Chris: Yeah.

1193
03:02:20,690 --> 03:02:21,626
Kayla: Ritual.

1194
03:02:21,818 --> 03:02:22,442
Chris: Oh, yeah.

1195
03:02:22,506 --> 03:02:27,660
Kayla: I don't know about ritual now. I know about the ritual stuff that your mom talked about, that Miss Carlson talked about.

1196
03:02:28,480 --> 03:02:30,400
Chris: I don't know if they still do the song. I have no idea.

1197
03:02:30,440 --> 03:02:32,460
Kayla: Like, the song and the meetings and.

1198
03:02:33,000 --> 03:02:34,456
Chris: I'm sure they still do the meetings.

1199
03:02:34,528 --> 03:02:36,768
Kayla: The can't be a negative Nelly.

1200
03:02:36,944 --> 03:02:47,660
Chris: Yeah. I mean, I've seen a lot of that's like, the meetings and the negative Nelly stuff on pink. Truth. I, I want to say that I saw somebody talk about the song in more recent terms.

1201
03:02:48,040 --> 03:02:51,136
Kayla: One is just one of the parties. Like, is that ritual?

1202
03:02:51,208 --> 03:02:55,270
Chris: Oh, I think the makeover party at home parties are absolutely ritual. Yeah.

1203
03:02:55,310 --> 03:02:57,422
Kayla: So then there's a high amount of ritual.

1204
03:02:57,526 --> 03:02:58,210
Chris: Yeah.

1205
03:02:59,110 --> 03:03:07,526
Kayla: I don't even need to do this last one. Charismatic leader. Clearly there's no charismatic leader here. What are we talking? I'm just kidding.

1206
03:03:07,598 --> 03:03:09,454
Chris: Yeah. What's the name of the company?

1207
03:03:09,542 --> 03:03:16,650
Kayla: Charismatic leader. Af. Probably only, like, next to teal, Swan and Romtha. You know what I mean?

1208
03:03:17,430 --> 03:03:22,050
Chris: Highly charismatic. Yes. So where does that leap us?

1209
03:03:23,730 --> 03:03:35,274
Kayla: I think I'm going to take a page out of one of our interviewees books. I'll agree. I think that Mary Kay is cult like.

1210
03:03:35,362 --> 03:03:36,594
Chris: Wait, you don't get to do that.

1211
03:03:36,642 --> 03:03:37,146
Kayla: I just did it.

1212
03:03:37,178 --> 03:03:43,106
Chris: She gets to do that. You're a host on cult or just weird? You have to answer cult like or just weird.

1213
03:03:43,178 --> 03:03:44,150
Kayla: Cult like.

1214
03:03:44,930 --> 03:03:53,034
Chris: So cult. You are literally not allowed to do this. Are we gonna get suede from Mary Kay? Yeah, I doubt it.

1215
03:03:53,122 --> 03:03:53,778
Kayla: Why?

1216
03:03:53,954 --> 03:03:56,150
Chris: Well, we could say cult. What's wrong with that?

1217
03:03:56,450 --> 03:04:01,330
Kayla: Why do you think she specifically said cult like and not cult?

1218
03:04:01,490 --> 03:04:40,028
Chris: She runs a website that is dedicated to exposing information about this company. We do not. She has much more to lose with the women that she's trying to protect and inform. If something happens to her website, that would be very detrimental. So, in fact, we should probably say that these opinions, everything that we say on this show is our opinion and has nothing to do with any opinion that. That Tracy or pink truth or Miss Carlson have on their own. Their opinions are their own. Our opinions are our own. But in our opinion, it sounds like they're probably a cult.

1219
03:04:40,084 --> 03:04:40,920
Kayla: It's a cult.

1220
03:04:41,280 --> 03:04:43,936
Chris: It's weird, right? Because I feel like.

1221
03:04:44,008 --> 03:04:47,140
Kayla: I don't know if it was always a cult. I think it's a cult now.

1222
03:04:47,520 --> 03:05:07,424
Chris: I feel similar to when were talking about cicada, when I wanted to say it was a cult, but, like, a beneficial cult. And this one, I want to say, like, it's not a cult, but it's, like, a harmful. Not a cult. I don't know. It's weird, right? Like, with cicada, the one criteria that we didn't have was harm, because, like.

1223
03:05:07,472 --> 03:05:16,632
Kayla: Mary Kay doesn't necessarily have a vested interest in, like, keeping every single one of their cult members. You know, like, they just need to get your money.

1224
03:05:16,776 --> 03:05:17,128
Chris: Right?

1225
03:05:17,184 --> 03:05:18,504
Kayla: Like, if you're somebody who.

1226
03:05:18,592 --> 03:05:20,488
Chris: But they do. No, they do like to keep you on the hook.

1227
03:05:20,504 --> 03:05:22,944
Kayla: They do like to keep you on the hook. Yeah, I guess it's.

1228
03:05:22,992 --> 03:05:23,312
Nancy: Yeah.

1229
03:05:23,376 --> 03:05:24,260
Kayla: I don't know.

1230
03:05:24,560 --> 03:05:26,760
Chris: They'll vampire you as long as you have blood to give.

1231
03:05:26,840 --> 03:05:27,460
Kayla: Right?

1232
03:05:30,480 --> 03:05:31,432
Chris: I mean.

1233
03:05:31,496 --> 03:05:35,208
Kayla: I mean, by going by our criteria, by the standards of this podcast.

1234
03:05:35,344 --> 03:05:41,220
Chris: Yeah, it's a cult. I think it is. Sorry, mom.

1235
03:05:45,160 --> 03:05:52,904
Kayla: I'm glad it worked out. Look, it's been a positive experience for some people. I really am. I really am glad. And I think.

1236
03:05:52,952 --> 03:05:53,432
Chris: Absolutely.

1237
03:05:53,496 --> 03:06:06,022
Kayla: I think that whatever we have to say here doesn't negate that it doesn't. That individual experiences have been positive, and you don't necessarily need to be deluding yourself to have had that positive experience.

1238
03:06:06,126 --> 03:06:14,686
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, it's kind of like, even when you're talking about teal. Right. Like, just because we're on here saying, like, oh, I don't know about teal. I don't know about her.

1239
03:06:14,758 --> 03:06:15,230
Kayla: Right.

1240
03:06:15,350 --> 03:06:24,054
Chris: That doesn't mean that we think that the people that follow teal or enjoy her teachings or benefit from them. We're not saying that their experiences are invalid or dumb or bad.

1241
03:06:24,062 --> 03:06:39,410
Kayla: Right. That doesn't negate the individual. Like me saying that I think teal's one is a cult. I still think about the video that I talked about on the podcast, and I still get benefit from that, even knowing that there's, like, that. I think that inherently what she's doing is cult. Like.

1242
03:06:39,530 --> 03:07:18,496
Chris: Yeah, yeah. And you're a freak, but. Right, but other people. No, but seriously, though, like, the point is. Yeah. Is that just because we're calling something a cult and, you know, and judging it by these criteria, which, you know, and I. I trust our research, doesn't mean that people involved in it aren't getting involved for valid reasons, that the things that they get from it are not valid and beneficial to them. So that can still happen. But at the end of the day, I also can't sit here in good conscience and recommend that anyone get involved with an MLM unless you are super eyes wide open with all of the.

1243
03:07:18,528 --> 03:07:23,170
Kayla: Information, if it's a hobby and you're just like, money's not an object here.

1244
03:07:23,250 --> 03:07:23,514
Chris: Right?

1245
03:07:23,562 --> 03:07:25,594
Kayla: I just like to sell milkshakes.

1246
03:07:25,682 --> 03:07:26,690
Chris: Know you are MLM.

1247
03:07:26,770 --> 03:07:27,430
Kayla: Yeah.

1248
03:07:27,730 --> 03:07:29,866
Chris: But we'll definitely be doing more of these on the show.

1249
03:07:29,978 --> 03:07:30,778
Kayla: Hell yeah.

1250
03:07:30,874 --> 03:07:39,066
Chris: As you can tell from our. Our last sort of narrative bit there about that FTC case, there's more to tell on that front.

1251
03:07:39,178 --> 03:07:42,010
Kayla: Interesting. MLM are just weird.

1252
03:07:42,090 --> 03:07:44,768
Chris: And there's more to tell on other fronts as well.

1253
03:07:44,914 --> 03:08:04,204
Kayla: Hell yeah. We should just do, like, an entire season about, like, mlms that have touched our lives. Because between Mary Kay and Cutco and beachbody and, like, candlelight and tupperware and pampered chef and cook in the american way. And, like, that's. I'm sure there's others that I'm not even thinking of.

1254
03:08:04,252 --> 03:08:11,600
Chris: Oh, yeah. That when I looked at the list, I was like, that's an MLM. Oh, my God. How do you want to. How do you want to have this roll on out of here?

1255
03:08:13,930 --> 03:08:18,498
Kayla: Last time you were like, don't say fall. Subscribe. So do you have one of those things?

1256
03:08:18,554 --> 03:08:42,250
Chris: Oh, yeah. Right. So instead of going and liking sharing, subscribing, leaving five star reviews, remember what you're supposed to do now is you're supposed to go get two of your friends to listen and get two of them to listen and then get two of them to listen. By the. Actually, if you did that last episode, this episode should be going out to the entire population of Earth, so. Hello, Earth.

1257
03:08:42,790 --> 03:08:43,374
Kayla: Thanks for listening.

1258
03:08:43,382 --> 03:08:45,090
Chris: Is there anyone you want to talk to?

1259
03:08:46,070 --> 03:08:56,486
Kayla: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. That girl in high school who told me that if you. No, it wasn't even high school. It was in junior high that if you didn't pluck your eyebrows, there was something wrong with you.

1260
03:08:56,598 --> 03:08:58,686
Chris: Yeah, fuck off. Yeah. Yeah.

1261
03:08:58,758 --> 03:09:01,550
Kayla: I'm so glad I finally get to say fuck you to your ears.

1262
03:09:01,710 --> 03:09:02,270
Chris: Right?

1263
03:09:02,390 --> 03:09:04,006
Kayla: That's the only reason we did this podcast.

1264
03:09:04,118 --> 03:09:10,480
Chris: Yeah, same. Should I, like, is it like, maybe have, like, an old crush or something that I can be like, huh? I have a podcast now.

1265
03:09:11,300 --> 03:09:12,180
Kayla: You missed out.

1266
03:09:12,220 --> 03:09:14,360
Chris: You dunked on old crush.

1267
03:09:14,780 --> 03:09:16,396
Kayla: You could have had all of this.

1268
03:09:16,468 --> 03:09:27,676
Chris: You could have had all this weird podcast about Mary Kay. Well, anyway, I'm serious about getting your friends to listen, though. And other than that, I guess I'm Chris.

1269
03:09:27,788 --> 03:09:28,796
Kayla: And I'm Kayla.

1270
03:09:28,908 --> 03:09:33,010
Chris: And this has been cult or just weird.

1271
03:09:33,990 --> 03:09:34,942
Nancy: Never gonna get it.

1272
03:09:34,966 --> 03:09:35,150
Chris: Nope.